Debunking Zerinus Blog, Do Catholics pray to Mary?

[De_Maria]

Do Catholics Pray to Mary?

Yes. We pray to Mary for intercession. We pray to Mary to praise God’s Creation. We pray to Mary because we love her.

What’s the problem?

The answer is yes, they do; and it is wrong! There is absolutely no justification for it in the word of God.

There isn’t?

Lets see, first, Jesus chose Mary from all women of all times to be His Mother. Jesus. That means that Jesus was her child, lived in her womb, got nourishment from her through an umbilical cord, sucked at her breast when He was born, PRAYED to her for nourishment when He was hungry, when He was thirsty and when He was cold or hot.

Oh, you don’t understand the word “pray”. The archaic meaning of the word “pray” means to “request”. We still use the archaic meaning because being the original Church of Christ and very ancient, we still use the archaic meaning. In fact, that meaning for the word “pray”, “to request”, is not archaic to us.

Cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Cont’d

Catholics bring various excuses to justify their cult of Mary worship. One of them is to say that prayer is not the same as worship. They say that they pray to her, but don’t worship her. Unfortunately, it does not work that way. Prayer is an act of worship.

No, you are wrong. Prayer is not always an act of worship. Prayer can be an act of communication. We can communicate our worship in prayer. We can also communicate our requests, our praises or any other message in prayer.

When we pray to someone or something, we acknowledge the existence of a supreme being whom we do not see, but whom we recognize as being omniscient and omnipotent, and who is therefore able to hear our prayers and answer them.

Correction. When YOU PRAY, the above applies.

However, we recognize the communion of Saints. That means that once a person is alive in Christ, he is always alive in Christ, even though his body be dead. Scripture teaches us that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, watching everything we do and encouraging us to do right:

Hebrews 12:1
And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Mary (or the saints) are not omnipotent nor omniscient. They do not have divine powers; and cannot hear our prayers nor act upon them.

They do not have to have Divine powers to see or hear us. It is enough that Jesus does and that He permits them to hear us.

Prayer is always addressed to a deity. When we pray to Mary or the Saints, we elevate them to the position of the Deity; and that is sacrilege and wrong.

Not so. If that were true then we couldn’t “pray” to our friends to request that they pray for us. Thats right, the archaic meaning. As in, “I pray thee, would you pass the mustard.”

Jesus set the pattern of how we should pray:

Jesus set the pattern of how we should pray when we pray directly to the Father. But Jesus did not forbid our prayers for the intercession of the Saints.

Matthew 6:

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions,

The key word here is “vain”. Our repetitious prayers to the Virgin Mary are in accordance with the Scriptures:

luke 11:5-13 5 And he said to them: Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go to him at midnight, and shall say to him: Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 Because a friend of mine is come off his journey to me, and I have not what to set before him. 7 And he from within should answer, and say: Trouble me not, the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. 8 Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise, and give him as many as he needeth. 9 And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.

Luke 18:
2 Saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God, nor regarded man. 3 And there was a certain widow in that city, and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary. 4 And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God, nor regard man, 5 Yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me.

as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The heathen don’t think about what they are saying. We meditate on our prayers.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

This model of prayer, established by the Lord Himself, informs us exactly how we should pray.

Again, this informs us how we should pray to the Father.

It informs us, firstly, that God already knows what we have need of before we ask Him.

Correct.

Secondly, we address our petitions directly to Him, not to some intermediate “Saint” or Mary.

This verse doesn’t address that issue.

But this verse illustrates it: Luke 16:24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me,

Note how this soul prays directly to the Saint for mercy.

Cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Cont’d

We don’t say, “Our Saint which is in heaven”.

You don’t. We do. We don’t pray to anyone in hell. We pray to the Saints in heaven because they are alive with Christ and can intercede in our behalf.
Angels in heaven work in our behalf and souls in heaven are equal to the angels.

Luke 20:
35 But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives. 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

We say, “Our Father which art in heaven”./ If you want to ask a Saint to pray for you, you ask him when he is still alive, not when he is dead!

We do. The Saints are alive!

                                            Matthew 19:29
                     And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

When he is dead, he is gone, and he can’t hear nor answer anyone’s prayer.

Yeah, he can. The clearest example of this is Luke 16, Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I like what Ecclesiastes says about the dead:

Ecclesiastes 9:

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

He is not speaking about the righteous dead. He is speaking about the unrighteous:

Psalms 9:6
Thou hast rebuked the Gentiles, and the wicked one hath perished: thou hast blotted out their name for ever and ever.

                                            Wisdom 5:16
                    
                    But the just shall live for evermore: and their reward is with the Lord, and the care of them with the most High.

Once a person is dead, he is gone, and you don’t pray to him, petition him, or ask him any questions. That is called soothsaying, which was forbidden in the Old Testament scripture.

Soothsaying is praying to the spirits of the dead through the intercession of the unrighteous. The servants of satan.

We address our prayers to God alone, as Jesus said, and not to anything or anyone else.

We adore God alone. But we petition all the Saints for prayer and assistance.

1 Cor 12:25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

                                                                                                                                                                                     26                                                              And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. 27                                                                                                                          Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

Cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Cont’d

Another excuse that they bring is that they don’t pray to them; they just ask them to intercede

To be precise, we pray to them for intercession.

with God on their behalf; in the same way that we might ask a friend or a relative to pray for us.

Correct.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t work either. Firstly, asking them to intercede is itself a form of prayer.

Correct. Prayer of petition but not worship or adoration.

Secondly, they do literally pray to them.

Correct.

They kneel down at the statute Mary and pray to her. If that is not prayer, then I don’t know what it is.

Certainly we kneel. Just as men kneel before earthly Kings and Queens. We kneel before Heavenly Kings and Queens:

                                            Revelation 4:4
                     And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats, four and twenty ancients sitting, clothed in white garments, and on their heads were crowns of gold.

St. Luke 22: 29 And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom; 30 That you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom: and may sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Thirdly, praying to them is not the same thing as asking our friends here on earth to help us or pray for us. Our friends are people whom we can see, and whom we can talk to and know that they can hear us. Prayer is an act of faith. It is an appeal to a supernatural being whom we do not see, but whom we believe in faith to be able to see and hear, and answer our prayer.

Very good. We have faith that God’s friends are in heaven as we hope to be soon.

I don’t know of any instance in the scriptures where one is supposed to appeal to any other being in heaven than the supreme, omnipotent God for assistance. Jesus talked a lot about prayer in the Gospels; but the object of His prayers was always God, not anything else. It is contrary to the whole order of things that God has established that one should pray to any other being than the supreme Divine.

That is because Jesus is the one intercessor by NATURE. He is Man and God. But we are His co-workers. We also intercede for each other. Remember that prayer that you mention so often. It says, “May it be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Well, Jesus is interceding for us in heaven. And here on earth we are to put on Jesus. We are to imitate the Saints as they imitate Him:

                                            1 Corinthians 11:1
                                             Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

Another problem with that is that when we ask our friends on earth to pray for us, we are not asking them to intercede on our behalf. Intercession is a completely different concept in Christianity.

No, it isn’t. When one prays on behalf of another that is intercession.

The following is a Protestant website:

You are here: Prayer >> Intercessory Prayer

Intercessory Prayer - What is it?
Intercessory prayer is prayer for others. An intercessor is one who takes the place of another or pleads another’s case. One study Bible defines intercession as “holy, believing, persevering prayer whereby someone pleads with God on behalf of another or others who desperately need God’s intervention.”
Intercessory Prayer - The Biblical Foundation
The Biblical basis for the New Testament believer’s ministry of intercessory prayer is our calling as priests unto God. The Word of God declares that we are a holy priesthood (1 Peter 2:5), a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), and a kingdom of priests (Revelation 1:5).
Cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Cont’d

According to the Bible, there is only one intercessor in heaven that acts between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. There is not any other:

1 Timothy 2:

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

And we are His Body, therefore mediate! Pray for those members of the Body of Christ who are in need!

Did you read the first four verses?

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Romans 8:

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

This does not forbid intercessory prayer. And if understood correctly, that we should imitate Christ, it authorizesa intercessory prayer.

Hebrews 7:

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This is true. But this verse does not forbid intercessory prayer.

That is the only intercession that is required.

False. God listens to our prayers on behalf of our friends:

                                            [Job 42:8](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=20&chapterId=42&verseId=8&page=1#x)
                                             Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath.

The Book of Mormon also confirms this teaching:

2 Nephi 2:

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

Mosiah 14:

[Quoting from Isaiah]

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Mosiah 15:

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men

All these are anathema. They are the contradictory Gospel of another angel which Scripture foretold:

                                            Galatians 1:8
                                             But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Cont’d

Jesus is in fact the only one that is qualified, by virtue of His atoning sacrifice, to be our intercessor with the Father in heaven. To appeal to Mary or the Saints for intercession borders on the sacrilege. It is like losing faith in Jesus Christ, and in the efficacy of His atonement. I like what Paul has said: “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthians 1:12.) Likewise I say, “Is Christ divided? Was Mary crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of the Saints?” There is only one Intercessor and object of faith mentioned in the Bible, and that is Jesus Christ. There is not one passage in the Bible that mentions, or implies, another.

You are wrong because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. Everyone of the Apostles except St. John, was martyred for us and even he suffered for us. Sacrifice and suffering for our brethren is what Christianity is about:

                                            Romans 8:17

And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

                                                                                    2 Timothy 2:12

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

                                            1 Peter 2:21

For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

Colossians 1:24

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

                                            John 13:34

A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 15:13

                    Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Yeah, the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of Truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Wampa]

It’s very clear that the differing definitions of the word “pray” seem to form the basis of the misunderstanding. While other Christians tend to use pray in the “to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship)” dictionary sense, we use it in the “to make earnest petition to (a person)” dictionary sense. Both are valid ways to “pray”.

I find it annoying that Zerinus is telling us what we intend when we “pray”. Don’t we decide what we intend?

Interestingly, the American legal system also uses pray in the petition sense, so it’s not just Catholics. In legal filings, when you ask the court for a specific judgment, you word it as “The plaintiff prays for…”

Zerinus, is the plaintiff there intending to speak to the judge as an object of worship when he/she “prays” to the judge? Of course not, it would be absurd to suggest so. Just as it’s absurb to suggest so with Catholics (especially when we tell you we are petitioning).

Prayer is always addressed to a deity

I guess that’s true when you use the tiny dictionary that only has one definition for each word In the real world, that’s false.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Don’t forget what Our Lady suffered, “ye a sword shall pierce through thy own soul, also” Luke 2: 35

 

[Wampa]

For the record, the OP is responding to zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/do-catholics-pray-to-mary.html

 

[catharina]

Wow. Beautiful. great work.

Plus we always have Cana as a perfect example of
To Jesus Through Mary.

 

[zerinus]

Thank you De Maria for taking the trouble to reply to my blog post. I don’t intend to reply to all the points you have raised, because a lot of it is not really a challenge to my post, as the first comment you have made illustrates:

Yes. We pray to Mary for intercession. We pray to Mary to praise God’s Creation. We pray to Mary because we love her.

What’s the problem?

The answer is that you are not supposed to. There is no theological or scriptural justification for praying to Mary (or anyone else for that matter except to God) either for intercession, or to praise God, or because you love her.

Oh, you don’t understand the word “pray”. The archaic meaning of the word “pray” means to “request”. We still use the archaic meaning because being the original Church of Christ and very ancient, we still use the archaic meaning. In fact, that meaning for the word “pray”, “to request”, is not archaic to us.

The literal meaning of prayer is a request, that is true; but when you are dealing with the realm of the supernatural, it becomes more than that. It becomes an act of worship.

No, you are wrong. Prayer is not always an act of worship. Prayer can be an act of communication. We can communicate our worship in prayer. We can also communicate our requests, our praises or any other message in prayer.

See above. If prayer was nothing more than a “communication,” then soothsaying, holding séances, and communicating with the spirits of the dead through mediums would also come under the definition of prayer, and would be OK. But they are not. The Bible specifically forbids that.

They do not have to have Divine powers to see or hear us. It is enough that Jesus does and that He permits them to hear us.

There is no scriptural basis for that belief.

But Jesus did not forbid our prayers for the intercession of the Saints.

That is a “given”. There is no basis in scripture for praying to any other being than the Deity.

You don’t. We do. We don’t pray to anyone in hell. . . .

What you have said in this post seems for the most part irrelevant to subject as far as justifying prayer to Mary or the Saints is concerned.

To be precise, we pray to them for intercession. . . .

And I explained to you why that is wrong. As Paul said, there is only one intercessor between God and man, and that is Jesus. There is no need for another.

Did you read the first four verses?

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: . . .

Intercession has more than one meaning. An “intercessory prayer” mans “praying for someone else;” but another definition of intercession is to act in a “mediatory” role between God and man, which is the role of Jesus Christ.

You are wrong because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. Everyone of the Apostles except St. John, was martyred for us and even he suffered for us. Sacrifice and suffering for our brethren is what Christianity is about: . . .

That is absolutely wrong, and “anathema” to the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the “other gospel” you were referring to, not Mormonism. Jesus is the only one who by His sufferings atoned, or ever could atone for the sins of the world; no one else ever could or did. The reason why He was able to do that was because He was a divine being. No mortal ever did or could have accomplished that. That just shows how false, how abominable and wicked and evil apostate Christian doctrine can be.

zerinus

 

[lukewarm]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, using Zerenius’ loose definition of prayer always being an act of worship, we can flip the bit and say hymn’s are always an act of worship. So I suppose hymn’s like “praise the man” and others about Joseph Smith means Mormons worship Joseph Smith. According to Zerenius’ loose definition of what worship is they certainly do.

 

[cranster]

Don’t forget what Our Lady suffered, “ye a sword shall pierce through thy own soul, also” Luke 2: 35

Don’t forget the next line in that Scripture,

“that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

It never ceases to amaze me, the hatred for our Blessed Mother!

But then again she is at enmity with the serpent Genesis 3:15

They just simply don’t have eyes to see that they are being used as a tool of the devil when they lay their thoughts bare.

 

[Stephen168]

Intercession has more than one meaning. An “intercessory prayer” mans “praying for someone else;” but another definition of intercession is to act in a “mediatory” role between God and man, which is the role of Jesus Christ.

Christians know that Christ is God, so how is there an mediatory between them.

 

[cranster]

English is such a poor language for describing the things of God.

here’s what webster says about prayer…

Pray
Verb

1. Address God; say a prayer.
2. Call upon in supplication; entreat; “I beg you to stop!”.

Since webster says that’s what it means… well then, it can’t possibly mean anything else… That’s what it means!!!, They offer specious arguments telling us what the words we use mean, and they can’t possibly have any other meaning. What it is, in reality, is a satanic campaign of very subtle verbal engineering designed to steer people away from the truth of the honor that God Himself has chosen to bestow on His Blessed Mother. You have to look at the proper use of language when defining theological concepts.

When Catholics pray we give the proper honor to God, the Blessed Mother, and to the Saints. We do not give what belongs to God alone to His mother or the saints.

This is what Pope Pius XIII had to say about it.

The first thing that a Catholic philosopher is taught is that he must define all the terms that he uses. That process of defining one term after the other is done before any proofs are put forth. Since questions concerning the above words surface occasionally, and since even catechisms generally do not deal with the problem We shall give the Catholic theology concerning Catholic Honor.

The highest honor that is possible is given to God alone, and that is called in Latin “latria.” The seconds highest honor that is given is “hyperdulia,” and that is given to the Blessed Virgin alone. The third type of honor is “dulia,” and that is given to all the angels and saints in heaven. After that there are various grades of honor. We are told to honor our parents. We are to honor the King (and rulers in general). We must honor our superiors. The wife must honor her husband.

The ordinary English speaking person generally does not use the terms latria, hyperdulia and dulia. He uses the words adoration for latria, veneration for hyperdulia and veneration for dulia. He may use super-veneration for hyperdulia.

The honor given to God through latria or adoration is the highest honor that can be given. It recognizes God as being the Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. God is infinite. He is all good in Himself. Obviously He is our just judge. None of that honor can be given to a creature, and if it is done it is idolatry.

Hyperdulia or super veneration is given to only one created being, and that is the Blessed Virgin Mary. It shows that Mary, the Mother of God, is so highly blessed and endowed by God that she stands alone in her class. She is above all the angels and all the Saints. She is the Queen of Heaven.

Dulia or veneration goes to all the good angels and to all the Saints. No matter how good a person is he will not receive veneration in the Catholic Church until he is declared venerable and finally a Saint by the Church.

As noted above, simple honor must be given to all those in honorable positions. Among men the person who rightly receives the highest honor is the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. After him come the dignitaries in the Church. Then come the dignitaries in the civil order. They are kings, governors, judges, police and the like.

In the domestic order, that is, in the family the highest honor goes to the father. Then comes the mother. The children likewise must honor their teachers and elders in general.

 

[Church_Militant]

Weird to see a Mormon, who has about what, four or five canonical books…(The Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Someone please correct me if I left any out.) telling Catholics much of anything as to what is and isn’t supported by the Word of God.

Without an understanding of the scriptural basis for The Intercession & Communion of Saints there is little to be discussed. The intercession of the Blessed Virgin is based upon that same Biblical principle, which can be traced back to the writings of the early church.

The same cannot be said for the teachings of Mormonism.

The Communion of Saints

Bible study notes are here.

 

[De_Maria]

Thank you De Maria for taking the trouble to reply to my blog post. I don’t intend to reply to all the points you have raised, because a lot of it is not really a challenge to my post, as the first comment you have made illustrates:

I 'll let reasonable people make that judgement.

The answer is that you are not supposed to.

According to whom? The Catholic Church says we are supposed to and the Catholic Church can prove She was established by Jesus Christ. Your Church was established by Joseph Smith and a false angel named Moroni. What is the root of "moron"i?

There is no theological or scriptural justification for praying to Mary (or anyone else for that matter except to God) either for intercession, or to praise God, or because you love her.

Yes, there is. It is based on love of God and love of neighbor. It is based on the eternity of our souls. It is a poor and deflated theology which believes that God became man in order to permit His people to die even for a moment.

But what are you talking about? You believe that man became God, don’t you? You believe that God was a man who now reigns in his own planet, unless I misunderstood LDS theology.
There is abslutely NO theological justification for that doctrine.

The literal meaning of prayer is a request, that is true;

Thank you. You have just conceded the entire argument.

but when you are dealing with the realm of the supernatural, it becomes more than that. It becomes an act of worship.

False. It is your false understanding of theology that leads you to false conclusions. Supernatural doesn’t mean “not natural”. It means it is natural to the nth degree. It is more natural than the simply natural everyday things that we see. It is the Spiritual. And our very thoughts are spiritual. They come from our Spiritual soul. We deal with the supernatural everyday. When I speak to a friend, I speak to a living soul, a Spiritual soul which moves a material body. I don’t worship my friend when I speak to him. I know the difference between worship and simple communication. In the same way, I know the difference between worshipping God and communicating with Mary or any of the Saints. And in the end, it is what I intend that matters. God can read hearts.

See above. If prayer was nothing more than a “communication,” then soothsaying, holding séances, and communicating with the spirits of the dead through mediums would also come under the definition of prayer,

They do. But it is prayer to the unholy. When Saul communicated with Samuel by the intercession of a witch, his mistake was using an unholy source in disobedience to God Who had condemned communication with the unholy.

and would be OK.

Wrong. As explained above.

But they are not. The Bible specifically forbids that.

Exactly. Prayer or any sort of communication (except to rebuke them) with Satan or Satan’s helpers is forbidden.

There is no scriptural basis for that belief.

Really? Then why do you think we are the Body of Christ? Just a neat thing to say?

Obviously you have no idea of the Divine Economy. Jesus Christ is the head of the body. Therefore He has the eyes and the ears with which we see and hear:

                                             [Colossians 1:18](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=58&chapterId=1&verseId=18&page=1#x)
                                             And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:

1 Corinthians 12:12

                     For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ.

That is a “given”. There is no basis in scripture for praying to any other being than the Deity.

But there is for communicating and requesting. And since you already conceded that prayer is request, then there is no further reason for you to contest this idea.
CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

What you hve said in this post seems for the most part irrelevant to subject as far as justifying prayer to Mary or the Saints is concerned.

Again, I’ll let reasonable people decide for themselves whether I have been relevant or not. At least a few of the Catholics on this board have already responded positively before you responded.

And I explained to you why that is wrong.

You explained your beliefs. I proved that your beliefs are wrong.

As Paul said, there is only one intercessor between God and man, and that is Jesus. There is no need for another.

In the same breath, St. Paul asked for intercession from everyone. Read it again:

                                             [1 Timothy 2:1-5](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=61&chapterId=2&verseId=5&page=1#x)

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 ** For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, **4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Intercession has more than one meaning. An “intercessory prayer” mans “praying for someone else;” but another definition of intercession is to act in a “mediatory” role between God and man, which is the role of Jesus Christ.
To intercede is to go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other.hat is absolutely wrong, and “anathema” to the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the “other gospel” you were referring to, not Mormonism. Jesus is the only one who by His sufferings atoned, or ever could atone for the sins of the world; no one else ever could or did. The reason why He was able to do that was because He was a divine being. No mortal ever did or could have accomplished that. That just shows how false, how abominable and wicked and evil apostate Christian doctrine can be.

Again, you are wrong. Intercession is mediation. Praying for someone else is getting between them and God, mediating.

•  Intercession (Mediation)

To intercede is to go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other. In the New Testament it is used as the equivalent of entygchanein ( Vulgate interpellare , in Hebrews 7:25 ). “Mediation” means a standing in the midst between two (contending) parties, for the purpose of bringing them together (cf. mediator , mesites , 1 Timothy 2:5 ).
catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

zerinus

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[mlchance]

There is no theological or scriptural justification for praying to Mary…

Sure there is. You just reject it, which is somewhat ironic considering there is also no “theological or scriptural justification” for the Book of Mormon either. Obviously a strict adherence to coherent theology or approaches to Scripture isn’t a primary concern, except, of course, when it allows Mormons to denigrate Catholics.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Church_Militant]

Sure there is. You just reject it, which is somewhat ironic considering there is also no “theological or scriptural justification” for the Book of Mormon either. Obviously a strict adherence to coherent theology or approaches to Scripture isn’t a primary concern, except, of course, when it allows Mormons to denigrate Catholics.

– Mark L. Chance.

:irish1: