Decline and Fall of the American Woman

[bunnynessuk]

what excactly do people here class as vulgar??? I wear an assortment of clothes perhaps my most revealing the stuff i wear on a girls night out is either a ra-ra skirt like a longer length cheerleading skirt - about 3inches above my knee (the shortest skirt i own) or a cross my heart top which shows cleavage? Is that classed by you as vulgar? An LBD that has a ruffle neck just above the breasts but which ends 2/3ins above the knee? A bikini at the beach?? No-one has ever commented on my attire as being vulgar but I am wondering if you ladies would?? What standards do you set yourself? And why?

 

[SusanL]

I cannot be held responsible for a man or womans thoughts I can only be held responsible and I wear short skirts on occasions when I go out because I happen to like fashion and I am a 20 year old woman I can wear what so ever I choose and I like to wear clothes which make me look pretty obviously I stick to the rule of vogue which is the rather crude (tts or are not both) (sorry for the language!) but I wear what I choose, I am an engaged woman and I am a student and no I will not be responsible for anyone elses thoughts. When/If I have children (I have gynae issues) I will ensure that they are brought up with good morals and that they are taught well but I cannot be held responsible for their thoughts - you don’t blame the parents or family of a person who kills you blame the person, you don;t blame the victim of rape you blame the attacker and similarly if a man chooses to have impure thoughts merely because I am showing skin that is HIS problem!

I am a practising catholic but I am a realist and I am not going to run around in a burka to save men from their own imperfections! I don’t have impure thoughts when I see a man in speedos!

I can agree with much of what you have said in an earlier post but not this one. Sorry. (Really).

What you are really speaking against is modesty. There ***is a huge range ***of clothes between what you say and a burka.

We, as women, should help our brothers in Christ and not unwittingly aid them in sin. We can do that and still dress attractively and with class.

 

[LSK]

Early cheerleading squads (as can be witnessed by photos of colleges at the turn of the 19th century and early 20th century) had cheerleaders who were male and female and the women dressed in very modest dresses.

 

[chevalier]

Early cheerleading squads (as can be witnessed by photos of colleges at the turn of the 19th century and early 20th century) had cheerleaders who were male and female and the women dressed in very modest dresses.

Yes, but modern ones push state legislators to issue official bans on butt-shaking. IIRC that was in Texas.

 

[JimG]

Modern cheerleading squads still have some males, although they are often called “yell leaders.” Cheerleading is a favorite activity of many girls in grade school, high school, and college. It requires athleticism and ability. I just don’t see it disapparing.

 

[LSK]

Yes, but modern ones push state legislators to issue official bans on butt-shaking. IIRC that was in Texas.

I hadn’t heard that one - you are saying that the Texas Legislature passed a law prohibiting certain types of dance moves for specific age groups? I am not saying it is wrong, I am simply asking for clarification…because I see nothing wrong with cheerleading per se, but I see a lot with the inability of the specific society in which they function to set parameters of behavior…and I am not sure the government should be setting the standard.

 

[chevalier]

Modern cheerleading squads still have some males, although they are often called “yell leaders.” Cheerleading is a favorite activity of many girls in grade school, high school, and college. It requires athleticism and ability. I just don’t see it disapparing.

What do you say about the fact that in so many cases they are basically objectified, their flying skirts and flashing underwear being treated as adrenaline source for the jocks to perform well in the field? Whatever kind of cheerleading doesn’t actually contain anything sexual or otherwise objectifying is ambivalent to me.

 

[DiannaK]

I don’t see why or how Katie Couric, Nora Jones, and Condoleezza Rice should be the role models for our girls. Why do we have to look to celebrities at all? Back in the old days, schools taught about heroines who had achieved great accomplishments in history. Parents taught their girls at home about modesty and self-respect. And in my youth, the nuns filled in the blanks (usually with their rulers across the knuckles!). Young girls should be encouraged to look elsewhere for examples of womanhood.

I think the point he is trying to make is that these are confident, successful women, who didn’t have to prance around half-naked to get to where they are, career wise.
That’s how I took it.

 

[blessedtoo]

It was a particular attitude that I was addressing.

And that particular attitude is lifted right from the feminist handbook. Women should be allowed to dress and behave in any way they wish, and bear absolutely no responsibility for what response they provoke in men OR women.

your view of feminism is not one which reflects the true ideals of it and merely the unfortunate way in which some women have decided to act using the word feminism!

Having marched on the front lines of feminism back in the day, I think my view of it has value and I am sorry to see you are too defensive to consider it. I suggest you check out this book for a more thorough understanding of what it really means to identify as a “feminist.”
amazon.com/Women-Who-Make-World-Worse/dp/B000GIW43W/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4342166-0872050?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173498539&sr=1-1

 

[agapewolf]

OK. So never mind the responsibility of the impure thoughts of men. How about making it a little bit easier for other men to defend your honor?

I one time made a remark to some colleagues that I thought it was pretty lousy that a product manufacturer stooped to using sexy women to sell their product. The product had absolutely nothing to do with sex at all! They just used photos of hot-babes posing with their product line. Boy did I get the flames from my colleagues! They defended their right to drool and lust over women, they accused me of being a prude, they puffed themselves up over how they can look without lusting (in reality they’re likely desensitized from more extreme exposures). I was the bad-guy. And all because I stood up and spoke out against the practice of exploiting a woman’s sexuality to sell products to men.

Now I read posts like this one above, and I think, who am I trying to defend?

Why should I take this kind of ****, when this is the attitude of so many women?

If women can dress however they mighty well please, then I’m not going to stand against men who openly lust over them. And I’m not so sure I would risk my life and limb to save any such woman who was in a dire situation either.

I am a chaste single female and I dress modestly.

I lacked a decent loving father… which was part of my motivation to seek out physical affection while in college. Women are wired to interpret physical compliments or advances as actual affirmation of who they are. Girls who dress hoochie are looking for men to turn their eyes to them, so therefore they feel better about themselves.

I do recognize now how backwards that is. It is so objectifying oneself.

Thank you black jacque for defending women’s honor. Please know there are women out there who do their best to help men be real men. (under the mission of-- EPH 5).

 

[JimG]

What do you say about the fact that in so many cases they are basically objectified, their flying skirts and flashing underwear being treated as adrenaline source for the jocks to perform well in the field? Whatever kind of cheerleading doesn’t actually contain anything sexual or otherwise objectifying is ambivalent to me.

I don’t think that cheerleaders consider themselves to be any more objectified than football players. They are both engaged in spectator sports. Football and cheerleading both require hours of practice, athletic ability, and coordination. Among themselves, cheerleaders don’t much discuss football; they discuss cheer routines. And players don’t normally pay attention to cheerleaders during the game—they’re concentrating on the game and the plays. As in any spectator sport, cheerleaders try to master their craft. Like football players, they wear whatever uniform is prescribed.

 

[chevalier]

But you haven’t answered the problem of flashing underwear unless you meant it by “whatever uniform is prescribed”. Are you willing to play along with the prescription or would you actually elaborate a bit on the morality of that outfit and those poses and moves? I will elaborate and I will say that it’s immoral of choreographers and teachers to have especially underaged or otherwise very young students flash their underwear in public. Prescription doesn’t cut it. If the government mandated a minimal size of cleave or maximal length of skirt, would you take it as a neutral fact?

 

[Jacafamala]

When I was a child, the neighborhood women would talk over coffee. The conversation would sometimes turn to, ‘which man had an extramarital affair, and who was the hussy he’d had it with?’ This little old lady southern lady would inevitably say, “Mens is animals, animals!!!”

Disclaimer: now I’m very fond of men, and I have a great husband. Men are wonderful; I couldn’t live with out them, and wouldn’t even want to try!

But other than her use of grammar, the little southern lady had it exactly right.

Women have always been the inspiration of a great culture. If society stands or falls, it’s up to the women, really. Yes, we have that much power! For many, sex is a man’s weaker side. But for women, it is our strength–or can be.

Women have always set the standards of morals and decency. In the twentieth century, we’ve handed that privilege over to Satan on a silver platter. But it doesn’t belong to Satan; it’s our God given right to take it back. How? Young ladies and mamas: those sweet gray haired rosary praying grandmas; let them be your mentors. You can be young and pretty, but cultivate your soul first.

And yes, have a job if you need a job or want a job, but don’t kid yourself: you’ll be immersed in the world and will thus think/see the world more like a man. So realize that leaving the home for work does have some risks involved with it.
Peace in Christ,
Ann

 

[jman507]

what excactly do people here class as vulgar??? I wear an assortment of clothes perhaps my most revealing the stuff i wear on a girls night out is either a ra-ra skirt like a longer length cheerleading skirt - about 3inches above my knee (the shortest skirt i own) or a cross my heart top which shows cleavage? Is that classed by you as vulgar? An LBD that has a ruffle neck just above the breasts but which ends 2/3ins above the knee? A bikini at the beach?? No-one has ever commented on my attire as being vulgar but I am wondering if you ladies would?? What standards do you set yourself? And why?

Well thats the hard thing to judge on the posts. It typically comes down to context. But if you have a dad, if he starts to object, then yeah, that’s an idea of where to draw the line. What I can say for myself, you might actually have no problem with me, with your general state of dress. You do need to just keep a general awareness of any problems, but you don’t need to think there are problems everywhere as a start position.

 

[litllulu]

I think ya’ll just proved my point! A man DOES indeed want scantily clad women bouncing all around him. Where I come from, they cheerleaders just dance, nothing athletic, and when they are done with that the jump up and down as hard and fast as they can to shake their stuff, then they throw tshirts into the audience. I do NOT see that as some modest innocent athletic activity. Sorry!

 

[SeekerJen]

Now, that’s only one of his proposed solutions. But, get rid of cheerleading?
Anyone here in favor of that?

I’m not necessarily in favor of getting rid of cheerleading, but I have a couple of suggestions to improve it:

1. Get rid of the ridiculously skimpy outfits used by many squads. I understand that many squads do gymnastic routines with lots of stunts, so the short skirts with shorts underneath don’t bother me. But are midriff-baring halter tops really necessary?
2. Get rid of the suggestive dance routines. Again, why are they necessary?

 

[litllulu]

I’m not necessarily in favor of getting rid of cheerleading, but I have a couple of suggestions to improve it:

1. Get rid of the ridiculously skimpy outfits used by many squads. I understand that many squads do gymnastic routines with lots of stunts, so the short skirts with shorts underneath don’t bother me. But are midriff-baring halter tops really necessary?
2. Get rid of the suggestive dance routines. Again, why are they necessary?

Some of these routines are almost simulated sex acts. the gyrating hips, (I love Elvis), bumping grinding motions, not to mention the sequinced bakini. This makes me sick. But there is obviously a market for it.

FYI- I have never seen a stunt or gymnastics act in my life at a sporting event.

 

[SeekerJen]

Some of these routines are almost simulated sex acts. the gyrating hips, (I love Elvis), bumping grinding motions, not to mention the sequinced bakini. This makes me sick. But there is obviously a market for it.

FYI- I have never seen a stunt or gymnastics act in my life at a sporting event.

The cheerleaders at my high school were more of the stand-and-clap types, but at least they wore uniforms with modesty shorts underneath, high necklines, and full midriff coverage. They also didn’t do soft-porn dance routines. Of course, I graduated in 1996, so that might have something to do with it. Society has gotten a lot raunchier in the past decade.

I have seen high school (and college, of course) cheer squads who are very athletic and somewhat gymnastic. One of my college roommates was a cheer coach at a nearby high school. I went to a game with her to see her girls, and was extremely impressed with their talent- pyramids, gymnastics, well-coordinated (not raunchy) dance routines. Done like that, it’s as much a sport as the football on the field behind them.

 

[litllulu]

The cheerleaders at my high school were more of the stand-and-clap types, but at least they wore uniforms with modesty shorts underneath, high necklines, and full midriff coverage. They also didn’t do soft-porn dance routines. Of course, I graduated in 1996, so that might have something to do with it. Society has gotten a lot raunchier in the past decade.

I have seen high school (and college, of course) cheer squads who are very athletic and somewhat gymnastic. One of my college roommates was a cheer coach at a nearby high school. I went to a game with her to see her girls, and was extremely impressed with their talent- pyramids, gymnastics, well-coordinated (not raunchy) dance routines. Done like that, it’s as much a sport as the football on the field behind them.

Sorry, I was talking about professional sports teams.

 

[SeekerJen]

Sorry, I was talking about professional sports teams.

Oh, yeah. I have no idea why pro sports teams “need” cheerleaders. You’d think the multi-million dollar contracts would be enough incentive for the players.