Decline and Fall of the American Woman

[chevalier]

We grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood most of my graduating class went off to college.We are 35 years old now. Most are not married, either never married or divorced. Most do not have children. Many lived with or are living with a boyfriend/girlfriend.

The reality of divorce and cohabitation suddenly makes me pain less over being single (I don’t normally, but I’ve been dumped recently by a potential fiancee over children/religion, I get older etc) and having poor prospects of finding a wife. But more of this in a moment…

I honestly believe birthcontrol (and abortion) has completely screwed over the women of my generation. Even if you didn’t start having sex in highschool by the time you were in college it is automatically assumed that you would. Adults in serious relationships (and even not so serious relationships) have sex. I mean it’s everywhere. Look at the media - does any tv program show an adult couple waiting until marriage to have sex?

Yep. Even if they don’t have sex, most girls seem to be on pill anyway for whatever purpose deemed proper by their doctor. I’m looked upon as a potential homosexual or a person with biological drive issues, or a potential priest, just because I haven’t done “certain things” (I’m not bragging, I’m not uncorrupted, lack of opportunity in younger years played a part, but thank God for learning the right thing in time).

Birthcontrol has given guys the freedom to have sex without a commitment and made it harder for women to say no.

Yes. Additionally, I believe women may be enjoying the freedom as well.

Another classmate dated her boyfriend for 11 years before marriage -and lived with him part of that time. She just got married a year and a half ago and they have no children as of yet. She’s 35 years old. They is no way this guy would have waited 11 years to commit to her had she not been sleeping with him.

That is long of an engagement, for sure. They say the optimal is 2 years.

I married right out of highschool. I was the one looked at as making the wrong choice. Didn’t turn out to be so wrong after all.

Yes, but it depends where you seek. Convince a not-so-very Catholic guy in early twenties and you’ll see how long it lasts. I have a younger sister divorcing and another almost divorcing (they may actually work it out - she’s still a church-going Catholic and he’s a good guy) and I’m 24.

My heart breaks for these women. My friend is 35 and single. More than anything she wants to be a mom and have a family.

I will pray for her tonight.

When she got pregnant in college her family convinced her that the wise thing to do would be to abort the child.That having a child at 20 would keep her from acheiving her goals. Now she grieves the loss of that child and the children she may never have. Yeah sexual freedom is just so liberating.

There are three foundations of safe sex: marriage, lack of artificial barriers, respect for dignity of a daughter/son of God. Whatever else is not safe sex. It’s dangerous sex.

Eh, relativism. Career must take precedence over morality. They won’t say that so clearly and will object to such implications, but they will always say that absolute adherence is impractical (they believe there is some inherent value in conceding from your principles), to which I’m inclined to start responding Credo in unum Deum. I’m so inclined to pray for salvation from modernism, liberalism, relativism and permissivism.

When schools educate about sexual “freedom” they never seem to mention freedom from disease or flashbacks.

God bless.

To be honest, not only do I have a problem with that, but I have a problem with Catholic groups, speakers, websites etc, even priests sometimes, encouraging young ones to date as many people possible and even dump whomever they have especially related to in favour of seeking new experience. The experience mentality is the same which leads to flashbacks.

I generally believe that nothing in this area of life can be treated as a subordinate means of achieving some egocentric goals such as education about the other sex, finding out what one likes or dislikes, gaining confidence, getting practice. I believe that kind of mentality downplays human dignity. We are not lab bunnies for each other. I cannot find that approach consistent with, “whatever you did unto the least, you did unto me.” This is something essentially lacking in the relationships of this day, be it sexual or even not-actively-so (I would hesitate to call a relationship looking at marriage asexual to avoid confusion with the asexual people).

 

[chevalier]

I think it comes down to what is appropriate for the situation. Like you said, you wore a shorter skirt out with your girlfriends, but you certainly wouldn’t wear it to mass. (I’m assuming here, because you sound like a sensible person. ) I wear a fitted t-shirt, but not the pushup bra with it. I think a tasteful bikini that covers well (not a thong) and use a coverup while walking around the pool. I wouldn’t sport cleavage at the office (or shorter skirts), because it is not appropriate in a business situation. I think it sends the wrong message. While I have the right to, I choose not to. (In my office experiences, those women who put it out there were viewed as more “fluff” than serious.) It doesn’t mean you can’t dress feminine. You’re a woman, so whatever you put on will be feminine. From your makeup to your shoes, your femininity shows. It comes down to how much you want to show.

I think a good test is, “would I/you/anyone wear a crucifix with it?” If it’s something a crucifix would not go with, then it’s probably something a Christian person should not wear.

More specifically, I don’t think a decent bikini (no, this is not an oxymoron) not specifically designed to be sexy would fail the test, but a thong? That would take a desensitised person.

As for cleavages, that’s a tricky matter. It doesn’t really relate to comfort that much, neither is it explicitly sexual (I’ve seen reasonably sizeable ones which I haven’t had a problem with), but there is always the hunting/impressing aspect. And that aspect is tricky. I tend to connect it with the need for validation from multiple men. And that is something I’m scared of, when it comes to women. If she wears it without thinking and she thinks she looks good, who cares? But if it’s fishing or if it actively burdens her conscience, then why is she clinging to the idea of wearing it? Is it not easier to cover up and cut the internal debate than to stress over an inch here or an inch there? Of course, if a cleavage size or design is intended to cause arousal in men, I think the answer on the part of a Christian woman should be pretty obvious and not only because of men but for her own sake as well.

It’s not all about sex. For many women, it’s just about having a man in their life. But I am constantly amazed what women will put up with to accomplish that goal. Eleven years of no commitment seems like a big price, but it’s not that unusual nowadays.

I totally agree.

So then, you think it’s not possible for two people to have a loving relationship without sex being the primary focus?
Kathy

I believe so and hope so.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think a good test is, “would I/you/anyone wear a crucifix with it?” If it’s something a crucifix would not go with, then it’s probably something a Christian person should not wear.

This sounded reasonable to me. . .but then I happened to think of Madonna. . .the soi-disant entertainer, that is.

I remember the Goth-y look not too long ago with the dead black and rather revealing outfits, complete with ornate jeweled crucifix. Bleach.

Yet another reason I purchased a sewing machine and am attempting to make modest, attractive clothing. Like bread making, these lost domestic arts which once would have been thought more economical than ‘buying goods’ are now as expensive in so far as material cost, unless one is outfiting large numbers of people and finds good warehouse deals, and certainly more expensive considering the time spent. . . but it’s such good time spent! I like to pray while I work!

 

[chevalier]

This sounded reasonable to me. . .but then I happened to think of Madonna. . .the soi-disant entertainer, that is.

Yeah, it only really works for someone who believes in it.

 

[rayne89]

Unless she was in the bedroom with them, how would she know what their sex life consisted of? Grant it, 11 years is a long time to “wait” but did you ever stop to think not all relationships are about sex?

Kathy

I do know because she told me.

 

[dwc]

Now, that’s only one of his proposed solutions. But, get rid of cheerleading?
Anyone here in favor of that?

I don’t know about getting rid of cheerleading … but dh and I wouldn’t allow our junior high daughter to be a cheerleader. When she came home and asked, my husband told her he didn’t raise his daughter to stand on the sidelines cheering on boys and she should spend her time developing her potential or being active in her own activities.

Then our son played basketball and we see all the 13 and 14 yo girl cheerleaders prancing around before and after the games, all made up, obviously having spent hours on their hair and makeup, wearing very short little skirts, twitching their rear ends and parading before the boys. Umm, and what about this should I want for my daughter?

If the focus was on tumbling or athletic prowess and the uniforms a little modest, maybe I’d feel slightly differently. As is, I see nothing of value for the girls involved at the junior high level.

 

[chevalier]

I don’t know about getting rid of cheerleading … but dh and I wouldn’t allow our junior high daughter to be a cheerleader. When she came home and asked, my husband told her he didn’t raise his daughter to stand on the sidelines cheering on boys and she should spend her time developing her potential or being active in her own activities.

:tiphat: :clapping:

My respect for that mighty fine gentleman.

Then our son played basketball and we see all the 13 and 14 yo girl cheerleaders prancing around before and after the games, all made up, obviously having spent hours on their hair and makeup, wearing very short little skirts, twitching their rear ends and parading before the boys. Umm, and what about this should I want for my daughter?

One word: Vashti.

I cannot understand how one could support such objectification. God did not create women to parade before men, let alone twitch their rear ends while wearing tons of make-up. That sends a clear message before which “submission” pales. Obviously, liberals will have a problem with submission per Ephesians, but will not have a problem with that kind of thing.

If the focus was on tumbling or athletic prowess and the uniforms a little modest, maybe I’d feel slightly differently. As is, I see nothing of value for the girls involved at the junior high level.

Any level. This doesn’t go just for cheerleading. What about the drama or theatre or whatever that group is called there? I certainly don’t want my future daughter to be a cheerleader, but I don’t want my daughter to play strumpety roles in the school theatre. No kissing or groping for the sake of the play. Same goes for ballet or anything.

I will never accept any of that and I will insist on respecting women especially if they don’t want to respect themselves. Yes, because I’m such a chauvinistic pig.

 

[ChristianWAB]

Teen girls began wearing thongs to school and started sleeping around from age of 14. …

And just who were they sleeping with?

Kathy

I’m reminded of a Woody Harrelson line from “EdTV” where he tells his brother,

“Stop? I don’t stop. I’m a guy. We’re the gas, they’re the brakes.”

The boy, of course, is just a guilty, but I think girls have historically been the ones to keep us in line when we try to go too far. Nowadays, he’s saying that women are stooping to a man’s level and it’s a very unsettling reality.

That’s just my interpretation, though.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The problem with the good Rabbi Shmuley is he always gets it half right. It’s kind of heartbreaking because I really want to like him!

I agree with his assessment here. But he neglects to mention the enormous role that radical feminism has played in this whole situation. If it was not for the “burn your bra”, “abort your baby”, “take the pill” mentality of these women, I doubt things would have ever gone this far. This generation of girls is simply taking that whole ideology to it’s logical end.

I don’t see why or how Katie Couric, Nora Jones, and Condoleezza Rice should be the role models for our girls. Why do we have to look to celebrities at all? Back in the old days, schools taught about heroines who had achieved great accomplishments in history. Parents taught their girls at home about modesty and self-respect. And in my youth, the nuns filled in the blanks (usually with their rulers across the knuckles!). Young girls should be encouraged to look elsewhere for examples of womanhood.

 

[GraceDK]

Reading the first few posts in this tread I got teary eyes and I thought to my self: so … I am a whore. Yeah…poor men, I’d better withdraw from the better society… I might wanna enter a bar (although I have never been in one in my life thus far) and embrace my identity as trashy woman.

A lady? tell me please … what is a lady? Yes you Chevalier… I think your hand is being raised now. I’d like to hear from you.

I have grown up in a culture where we have all pretty much been thrown into a public life where pornography is on the street corners, virgins are laughed at, girls and boys wear little clothes in the summer, everybody gets wasted in the week ends and books about sex are found in the school library as soon as you can read (somehow we always knew how to find these ‘interesting books’.) Growing up in this culture it is really a cultural thing that a man is not tempted or thinking low thoughts about a woman just because she does not wear sleeves or you can see her knees. I have also been wearing such clothes without the least care… why, it was not in my universe to even consider that someone might find it sexy or tempting. talking it over with many men in this culture they say the same: there are limits but it surely also depends on the eyes that see.

I remember once when I was on a pilgrilmage as a new believer. I wore a dress without sleeves and also not with a collar. I remember my group listened to a Catholic man who was telling us about how holy and spiritual he was. While he was talking about decency he made all the women - even the ones over 50 - feel like tramps. I stood right across from him, prayerfull, wearing a dress I found real pretty, and he made me feel like a prostitute, because that was what was in his eyes… I have always thought to my self that I’ll stay the heck away from such holy men.

seeing now this: “the fall of the american woman… our poor young men… are there any real virtuous ladies out there anymore.” - sorry brothers and sisters but it just gets me real downcast. I mean… is a human being not a human being, made out of love to be loved… You talk so much about dignity and yet you label women in categories with such carelessness, as though you had a right.

I think that if sin has one good purpose its removing hypocracy and making us able to embrace each other wholly. Loosing our ideas and ideals about ourselves make us capable of loving.

Just a few month ago I was on a charismatic conference. I was on my knees in a park and I was wearing a long skirt, no jewels and a long head scarf. A profet told me: I have a word for you: “even if you loose all this” she pointed at my scarf- “God loves you regardless and He wants you to be joyfull.” I was sad at the time because I did not feel holy in spite of all my holy actions and modest appearance. A few months later I was tempted and fell into sexual sin. Deeply and utterly depressed I thought: “my life is over.” Often I took out my scarf and thought: you want to look pious… why…for Gods sake?..or to attract someone pious?" I find that often our real motives are quite hidden.

As a person who has fallen, confessed and still weep daily for my sins I feel that there are two teams. One consists of part of my self, satan and all the pious christians who still have a big image of themselves as pure due to their own will and strength: All these will tell me: “You are not a lady and will never be. and don’t you forget it.” And satan whispers on: “No one will ever love you because people are proud and in their pride they are foul”.
And then there is my Father. I run to Him: He takes his little girl up on His lap and kisses her tears away. He is not afraid to touch the leper. I know His embrace, in the lonely nights when I got struck with the illness that is sin and I was lying naked on the ground, He was the only one who kept vigil at my side, and I only trust in Him. He says now: did the other children tease you because of your wounds?.. but never forget that you are Daddy’s princess, and this will never change."

My question is then to the holy ones: Are you keeping other people down in the mud by your holiness? Clean is not a virtue of the body but of the heart. And by the way: you are not called to be a man who treats a woman according to her outer appearance but according to her appeareance in the eyes of God… Jesus called both his mother and the samaritan woman by the SAME name: “woman”, and as far as I know Jesus’ heart, I believe this is a title of love. A prostitute might be broken and forgot how to love herself, but you have no excuse whoever you are.

I believe I am a virgin… are you angered or provoked by this statement?
And again: Will you allow me to be?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Seems to me like you’re missing the point. If your heart is clean, no one else can make you feel dirty.

Defensive much?

 

[catechumen08]

I am from the UK but I feel that America and Uk are very similar.

I love going on this forum - I find it a breath of fresh air and a wealth of information, however I feel that sometimes the word ‘feminism’ is taken out of context. Yes feminism may be associated with abortion and casual sex but that is not what being a feminist is about - I consider myself to be a strong feminist, I have got a great grad career waiting for me as a civil servant in September, I will be earning far more money that my partner (pre-feminism this would not have been possible), through feminism the glass ceiling is falling I can now earn as much as a man in the same position, I do not need a chaperone to go out, I am free to date whom I choose, I can drive, choose not to cook or clean and not be expected to be a baby machine I am now able to work and live my own life I can be a mother and be a capable member of the work force - this is what feminism is.

It means that the way I dress is a personal choice I am not told by my father, boyfriend uncle or whatever what to wear and I have free choice.

Feminism works well with catholism if it is not twinned with a lack of morality the problem with the western world is not due to the rise of women but to the fall in morality amongst both the sexes - the fact that in the UK 5 year olds are given sex-ed, the fact that 5 year old smoke and that 8 year olds do cannabis that is the problem with society.

I will not be held responible as a woman for the fall in society but I will be held responsible for my own moral values, the way I choose to live my life. The problem is that too many people aren’t prepared to have morals - its too hard!

And just a quick note I will not as a woman be held responsible for any mans ‘sin’ he has a mind of his own and should he choose to look to the gutter merely because I wear a short skirt or a low cut top that is HIS sin and HIS problem.

I agree. It’s refreshing to see someone who shares my perspective.

I’m a guy, by the way.

 

[GraceDK]

Sailor.

Yes, a little bit… but I guess its all about experience. I believe some persons are very good at making other people feel dirty or unworthy … one such expert is satan, and many people are tempted into the sin of pride by him without realising it.
You say feeling of impurity can not exist in a pure heart… An example is the child that has been molested. feels dirty? absolutely, but not because he or she is in fact dirty. Or the black man who is told that he will never amount to anything in society because he is not worth the same as another man… This man will eventually take that in and his selvesteem will drop. So too with a person who has sinned for whatever reason, if we believe the Sacrament of reconciliation is valid… we are washed white as snow by Jesus who makes all thing new (which is why I claim by faith that I am a virgin) but we can still in the silence of night get tempted to think of ourselves or others as being the same as before the “washing”… a person can tell me I am a bad person and I, being weak for any reason, can take those words as true… In this way I try to say that we in the family of God has a calling to build up one another and realise we are all sinners in need of God’s mercy …

…But let us just agree to disagree agreably. I am happy for you you have never lend an ear to satans condemnation.
Lets just still agree that if a few people have real purity in their heart this is the work of Christ. Not their own merit.
without the Blood of Christ we were all awaiting our death penalty for our sins.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Sailor.

Yes, a little bit… but I guess its all about experience. I believe some persons are very good at making other people feel dirty or unworthy … one such expert is satan, and many people are tempted into the sin of pride by him without realising it.
You say feeling of impurity can not exist in a pure heart… An example is the child that has been molested. feels dirty? absolutely, but not because he or she is in fact dirty. Or the black man who is told that he will never amount to anything in society because he is not worth the same as another man… This man will eventually take that in and his selvesteem will drop. So too with a person who has sinned for whatever reason, if we believe the Sacrament of reconciliation is valid… we are washed white as snow by Jesus who makes all thing new (which is why I claim by faith that I am a virgin) but we can still in the silence of night get tempted to think of ourselves or others as being the same as before the “washing”… a person can tell me I am a bad person and I, being weak for any reason, can take those words as true… In this way I try to say that we in the family of God has a calling to build up one another and realise we are all sinners in need of God’s mercy …

…But let us just agree to disagree agreably. I am happy for you you have never lend an ear to satans condemnation.
Lets just still agree that if a few people have real purity in their heart this is the work of Christ. Not their own merit.
without the Blood of Christ we were all awaiting our death penalty for our sins.

Naah, I get condemned all the time…

 

[Maria]

Reading the first few posts in this tread I got teary eyes and I thought to my self: so … I am a whore. Yeah…poor men, I’d better withdraw from the better society… I might wanna enter a bar (although I have never been in one in my life thus far) and embrace my identity as trashy woman.

A lady? tell me please … what is a lady? Yes you Chevalier… I think your hand is being raised now. I’d like to hear from you.

I have grown up in a culture where we have all pretty much been thrown into a public life where pornography is on the street corners, virgins are laughed at, girls and boys wear little clothes in the summer, everybody gets wasted in the week ends and books about sex are found in the school library as soon as you can read (somehow we always knew how to find these ‘interesting books’.) Growing up in this culture it is really a cultural thing that a man is not tempted or thinking low thoughts about a woman just because she does not wear sleeves or you can see her knees. I have also been wearing such clothes without the least care… why, it was not in my universe to even consider that someone might find it sexy or tempting. talking it over with many men in this culture they say the same: there are limits but it surely also depends on the eyes that see.

I remember once when I was on a pilgrilmage as a new believer. I wore a dress without sleeves and also not with a collar. I remember my group listened to a Catholic man who was telling us about how holy and spiritual he was. While he was talking about decency he made all the women - even the ones over 50 - feel like tramps. I stood right across from him, prayerfull, wearing a dress I found real pretty, and he made me feel like a prostitute, because that was what was in his eyes… I have always thought to my self that I’ll stay the heck away from such holy men.

seeing now this: “the fall of the american woman… our poor young men… are there any real virtuous ladies out there anymore.” - sorry brothers and sisters but it just gets me real downcast. I mean… is a human being not a human being, made out of love to be loved… You talk so much about dignity and yet you label women in categories with such carelessness, as though you had a right.

I think that if sin has one good purpose its removing hypocracy and making us able to embrace each other wholly. Loosing our ideas and ideals about ourselves make us capable of loving.

Just a few month ago I was on a charismatic conference. I was on my knees in a park and I was wearing a long skirt, no jewels and a long head scarf. A profet told me: I have a word for you: “even if you loose all this” she pointed at my scarf- “God loves you regardless and He wants you to be joyfull.” I was sad at the time because I did not feel holy in spite of all my holy actions and modest appearance. A few months later I was tempted and fell into sexual sin. Deeply and utterly depressed I thought: “my life is over.” Often I took out my scarf and thought: you want to look pious… why…for Gods sake?..or to attract someone pious?" I find that often our real motives are quite hidden.

As a person who has fallen, confessed and still weep daily for my sins I feel that there are two teams. One consists of part of my self, satan and all the pious christians who still have a big image of themselves as pure due to their own will and strength: All these will tell me: “You are not a lady and will never be. and don’t you forget it.” And satan whispers on: “No one will ever love you because people are proud and in their pride they are foul”.
And then there is my Father. I run to Him: He takes his little girl up on His lap and kisses her tears away. He is not afraid to touch the leper. I know His embrace, in the lonely nights when I got struck with the illness that is sin and I was lying naked on the ground, He was the only one who kept vigil at my side, and I only trust in Him. He says now: did the other children tease you because of your wounds?.. but never forget that you are Daddy’s princess, and this will never change."

My question is then to the holy ones: Are you keeping other people down in the mud by your holiness? Clean is not a virtue of the body but of the heart. And by the way: you are not called to be a man who treats a woman according to her outer appearance but according to her appeareance in the eyes of God… Jesus called both his mother and the samaritan woman by the SAME name: “woman”, and as far as I know Jesus’ heart, I believe this is a title of love. A prostitute might be broken and forgot how to love herself, but you have no excuse whoever you are.

I believe I am a virgin… are you angered or provoked by this statement?
And again: Will you allow me to be?

Beautiful words Grace!

 

[Pug]

I am saddened when I hear that some people would withhold help from a woman in a dire situation based upon certain factors. Maybe, even, I am angry. I’m not saying I should be, but to be honest, I think I am.

Please, just help a women who needs help. The “woman” you help may be someone’s twelve-year old daughter. Either way, she is still your neighbor.

 

[FLCathMom]

Grace,

I think the point is the decline of the American culture. Don’t you wish you had a little more guidance from the adults around you when you were growing up to help keep you on the right track? What’s done is done- if you’ve confessed your sins, then God forgives you. All you can do is try your best with God’s grace in the future. Yes, men today are desensitized to immodest clothing, but many have sex on their minds 24/7 and they don’t even realize the connection. I hear people talk about how abstinence before marriage is impossible- well, with the kind of sexual bombardment we have everywhere, they may have a point. Yes some young men and women may be fortunate enough to have the spiritual strength to go it alone and be chaste, but the fact is, most don’t. They need help, guidance from their elders, and it is all too often not there.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Who revived this??? It’s from last March.

 

[GraceDK]

FLCathmom

I absolutely agree with you.
There is not enough focus and support neither in most homes nor in the parishes.
I have never ever heard my Priest talk about sexual sins from the pulpit… he even admitted people into the Church that receive their fist communion while living in death sin…
And as far as the homes… in mine it was a tabu… like, my dad said things like: Only pigs drink… and that naturally certain things were not done by decent people. But neither he nor my mother even explained anything to me about anything… they let the secular school deal with it…
And the secular school… oh young girls do start having romantic ideas quite young and they dont think about sex in any other frame (normally)… and everything goes really bad here where I live… even Christians, many of us, have fallen both before and after our conversion… I cannot blame anyone but my self but I did feel like I have always been alone in this struggle and guilt (did not know anyone else experienced such terrible guilt before I met some people in their 20s who were personal Christians).
Having sinned myself I found my self so broken, dead and gone that I thought: GOD, you gotta prove the Gospels to me now, I am dying… can you raise up the dead (totally depressed) or cant you? And He sent me Jason and Crystralina Evert… Crystalina…oh she gave me new hope… at the ripe age of 25 I have made a commitment card now that I will live in a pure-love-relationship with my yet unknown husband when I meet him… The Lord is mercyfull. I hope He will send me a good man and heal my wounds through this healthy love.
I believe in Renewed Purity that Crystalina talked about. I listened on the internet to their speech to a public highschool. Is was words like I have never heard before… we dont have sex talks where I come from… we are rather lost overhere in the northern part of Europe. I am now trying to tell satan that he messed with the wrong person when he tempted me. I will spread the message of pure love. Praised be Jesus
There are no prostitiutes… only people who were not loved and whom no one ever told the good news about a persons dignity.
Being a passionate romantic myself I think Crystalinas and Jasons message could have made a huge impact on me when I was 16 years old and ready to give my self away because it was “normal”… coz what they display is TRULY ROMANTIC