Decline gift etiquette

[kptrs]

The giver is not married. I do not know if his mother could have “chosen” said clothing, but I highly and seriously doubt it. I could pretty much say it with close to 100% certainty.

Yes, the gift was as a thank you for what she does for free that an adult would normally receive payment for. Think of it as volunteer service that she has been gifted with.

Please note that the service she performs is not for him specifically, but is one that is beneficial to everyone.

The thank you gift pertains NOTHING to the service she rendered. For example, receiving a spatula as a gift if someone painted your house free of cost. It’s not relative in any way.

Peace.

+JMJ+

I honestly don’t think anyone can give sound advice on this particular situation without more details.

From what you’ve said so far, I would say, first and foremost, don’t keep this a secret from your husband for too much longer, as that will create its own problem. As far as the actual gift, if you are really creeped out by it and feel there are ill-intentions behind it, say to the giver, “Thank you but we don’t feel comfortable accepting this.” Then return the gift and limit your daughter’s contact with this man. If necessary, break all ties.

 

[kptrs]

It’s a good idea to check in first with mom or dad if it’s a minor child who isn’t an actual employee.

And something along the lines of actual money or a gift card for her to use on lunch at a place like Starbucks with a friend of her own age group would have been much more appropriate than expensive clothing.

 

[Xantippe]

That seems pretty reasonable, IMO.

There are a lot of grey areas and unknowns here, I’d say.

The OP has an obligation to protect her family, of course. But there’s also an obligation to act justly to not only one’s nuclear family, but to the larger human family which includes this man. I think it’s in human nature to care most about our own nuclear families, but that cannot come at the cost of possible injustice towards unmarried adults. It’s too easy to forget that when our protective instincts fear children may be threatened.

Well, this isn’t a court and it’s not a public punishment, so there’s no injustice. Also, it’s not a huge penalty to lose authority over a minor child when one has done some “off” things–it’s more of a natural consequence. If anything, it’s the minor child who is being punished by losing opportunities that would otherwise be hers.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I feel obligated to return the gift, even though the intention may be pure. Afraid that a line may have or may be crossed in the future, but at the same time apprehension in possibly offending the giver by declining.

Looking to return it with a note saying thought was appreciated but that teenager cannot accept the gift (which is of a luxury brand we would never have purchased)…

I think it is best to return the gift simply as a violation of prudent policy. You only have to say you don’t allow her to accept that sort of gift from any older men, because to accept it from some and not from others would insult those chosen as “concerning.” Thank him for the thought he put into the gift and say that simply to be appreciated is payment enough.

If he’s in a Catholic organization and she is not 18, remind him the gift violates the policies of the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young Adults. It should be at least mentioned to his superior, simply out of form. If she is 18, point out that the age difference doesn’t disappear when a young woman passes 18. It is still not kosher.

Remember that Jerry Sandusky was among many predators who were thought upstanding members of their profession before they got caught abusing their position of trust. The vast majority of the time, these behaviors are innocent. Still, all the adults who worked with him were devastated that they ignored the signs that something was amiss. Those boundaries have a reason, and the reason is to deny opportunities to offend without accusing the innocent. It is not blame we are after when a minor mistake is made, but prevention of the serious offenses.

By the way, the most adept predators would not make the first gift inappropriate. If they were to do that, that would come later. Some never will make an inappropriate gift, since the gifts are meant to introduce a feeling of being beholden to someone and not wanting to offend such a nice person. Predators always build a cloak of trust by being a wolf in sheep’s clothing. That would not work if most of the people wearing white wool weren’t actually sheep.

 

[LongingSoul]

That seems pretty reasonable, IMO.

There are a lot of grey areas and unknowns here, I’d say.

The OP has an obligation to protect her family, of course. But there’s also an obligation to act justly to not only one’s nuclear family, but to the larger human family which includes this man. I think it’s in human nature to care most about our own nuclear families, but that cannot come at the cost of possible injustice towards unmarried adults. It’s too easy to forget that when our protective instincts fear children may be threatened.

I don’t think it says anything about unmarried adults though. If an unmarried woman were to have been the gift giver it really wouldn’t have been that strange. It’s not unusual for females to discuss clothes sizes and styles under social circumstances for instance. But an unrelated, older male would be better buying a teen girl gifts that don’t require contemplating body dimension/size.

 

[Marysann]

I love etiquette because it gives us polite and proper ways of handling difficult situations in life without getting into explanations that we would prefer not to have to make. My old Emily Post book from the 1970’s is filled with quotes from the 1922 edition. The original Emily reminded young ladies that they should never accept a gift from a man, not yet their husbands, that could be construed as “maintenance.” This referred to gifts of clothing, cars, furniture, etc. For example, a fur scarf would be an acceptable gift, but not a fur coat. If a man can afford it, jewelry is an acceptable gift because it is ornamental, and not wearing apparel. Emily told young brides that they could pick out furniture, and homes or apartments, to be purchased by the husband-to-be, but that they shouldn’t use the furniture or live in the house until they are married. She said that only “women of another class” allow themselves to be clothed by a man who was not their husband. My mother would not let me accept gifts of clothing from boyfriends because it wasn’t “proper.” Mom, just return the shirt and tell the giver that it is not proper for young ladies to accept such gifts from men outside the family. No need to get into anything else. Also, please inform your husband about this. Maybe he should be the one to return the gift. That way there will be no question about your family’s feelings about gift giving.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The giver is not married. I do not know if his mother could have “chosen” said clothing, but I highly and seriously doubt it. I could pretty much say it with close to 100% certainty.

Yes, the gift was as a thank you for what she does for free that an adult would normally receive payment for. Think of it as volunteer service that she has been gifted with.

Please note that the service she performs is not for him specifically, but is one that is beneficial to everyone.

The thank you gift pertains NOTHING to the service she rendered. For example, receiving a spatula as a gift if someone painted your house free of cost. It’s not relative in any way.

Peace.

+JMJ+

Regarding the bolded, is it possible that this is a misunderstanding, such as your daughter coming home with the gift saying, “Mr.X gave me this”, when he may have been just acting as a head of the organization or group which benefitted from her work? Could the gift have been chosen by a female member of “everyone”, with this man being the person to hand her the box? Did he give the gift to your daughter, to your daughter with you present, or to you alone? Did he say something like “I want to give you this gift” or, rather, something like “This is for you” without indicating it was from him alone?

I’m sorry for all the questions, OP, but looking at this with more information and from different angles would be a good idea, I think.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I don’t think it says anything about unmarried adults though. If an unmarried woman were to have been the gift giver it really wouldn’t have been that strange. It’s not unusual for females to discuss clothes sizes and styles under social circumstances for instance. But an unrelated, older male would be better buying a teen girl gifts that don’t require contemplating body dimension/size.

True, but I was focused on the idea that a married person or child/teenager has their nuclear family, usually, to go to on the defensive for them. For many unmarried adults, unless things reach a stage where a lawyer is hired, they are a fairly unprotected class. Even their organization, these days, may back off from any defense lest that organization be viewed as covering things up.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I think it is best to return the gift simply as a violation of prudent policy. You only have to say you don’t allow her to accept that sort of gift from any older men, because to accept it from some and not from others would insult those chosen as “concerning.” Thank him for the thought he put into the gift and say that simply to be appreciated is payment enough.

If he’s in a Catholic organization and she is not 18, remind him the gift violates the policies of the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young Adults. It should be at least mentioned to his superior, simply out of form. If she is 18, point out that the age difference doesn’t disappear when a young woman passes 18. It is still not kosher.

Remember that Jerry Sandusky was among many predators who were thought upstanding members of their profession before they got caught abusing their position of trust. The vast majority of the time, these behaviors are innocent. Still, all the adults who worked with him were devastated that they ignored the signs that something was amiss. Those boundaries have a reason, and the reason is to deny opportunities to offend without accusing the innocent. It is not blame we are after when a minor mistake is made, but prevention of the serious offenses.

By the way, the most adept predators would not make the first gift inappropriate. If they were to do that, that would come later. Some never will make an inappropriate gift, since the gifts are meant to introduce a feeling of being beholden to someone and not wanting to offend such a nice person. Predators always build a cloak of trust by being a wolf in sheep’s clothing. That would not work if most of the people wearing white wool weren’t actually sheep.

I think that all is fair enough, though it wouldn’t hurt to find out if this is a misunderstanding about who actually bought the gift that the man gave.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I am dissapointed by the responses so far. I’ll let others handle the etiquette part, I’ll just give a man’s perspective, more to the point a father of girls perspective.
I thought this could be a misunderstanding until I read where the op has not told the husband for fear he may “rock” the boat.
This is a huge red flag amid a ton of other red flags.
1 a person in authority giving a minor an expensive gift.
2. The op herself not wanting to offend the person in authority or examine the possibility of him not being in a position of authority over the child.
This could be a boss, an accordion instructor, a principal, a priest, or a coordinator of volunteers at a hospital… Even a neighbor that has her pet sit. It is classic grooming behavior. It’s as if none of the other posters have ever taken a safe environment class!
Like I said the op doesn’t want to tell the alpha that his daughter is getting expensive gifts from men…
Yikes.
While I may not fly off the handle in a rage, I can tell you I would take care of this situation bluntly, and assuredly. Then, family friend, parish priest, respected leader or not I would shut any opportunity for that person to ever ever be one on one with my daughter. Ever.

Have we learned nothing as Catholics from the scandals except how to protect our children!?

 

[Xantippe]

I love etiquette because it gives us polite and proper ways of handling difficult situations in life without getting into explanations that we would prefer not to have to make. My old Emily Post book from the 1970’s is filled with quotes from the 1922 edition. The original Emily reminded young ladies that they should never accept a gift from a man, not yet their husbands, that could be construed as “maintenance.” This referred to gifts of clothing, cars, furniture, etc. For example, a fur scarf would be an acceptable gift, but not a fur coat. If a man can afford it, jewelry is an acceptable gift because it is ornamental, and not wearing apparel. Emily told young brides that they could pick out furniture, and homes or apartments, to be purchased by the husband-to-be, but that they shouldn’t use the furniture or live in the house until they are married. She said that only “women of another class” allow themselves to be clothed by a man who was not their husband. My mother would not let me accept gifts of clothing from boyfriends because it wasn’t “proper.”

Yep.

The rules about not giving substantial gifts to unrelated females are very old school.

 

[pnewton]

It is classic grooming behavior. It’s as if none of the other posters have ever taken a safe environment class!

If this had happened in the setting of a Catholic Church, it would have violated our safety policies designed to keep children safe from predators. It is worth checking to see if there are any policies in place, if this is a relationship that this can be applied to. If so, then the idea this is grooming for predation is greatly increased, as thinking one is above the rules is another warning sign.

As a rule, if a parent feels uneasy and unsure, it is probably past the point one should be worrying. If you think secrecy is needed from your husband, that highlights the possibility you may be unwilling to see the danger. We tend to be more trusting than we should and unwilling to confront unpleasant situations. Whether you send the gift back or not is minor compared to the big picture of putting limits, or a halt, to this relationship. This is a question of safety, not etiquette.

 

[LongingSoul]

OP, would you be willing to share the ages of your daughter and of the older man?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If this had happened in the setting of a Catholic Church, it would have violated our safety policies designed to keep children safe from predators. It is worth checking to see if there are any policies in place, if this is a relationship that this can be applied to. If so, then the idea this is grooming for predation is greatly increased, as thinking one is above the rules is another warning sign.

As a rule, if a parent feels uneasy and unsure, it is probably past the point one should be worrying. If you think secrecy is needed from your husband, that highlights the possibility you may be unwilling to see the danger. We tend to be more trusting than we should and unwilling to confront unpleasant situations. Whether you send the gift back or not is minor compared to the big picture of putting limits, or a halt, to this relationship. This is a question of safety, not etiquette.

Yep, you and I agree 100 percent on this.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I am dissapointed by the responses so far. I’ll let others handle the etiquette part, I’ll just give a man’s perspective, more to the point a father of girls perspective.
I thought this could be a misunderstanding until I read where the op has not told the husband for fear he may “rock” the boat.
This is a huge red flag amid a ton of other red flags.
1 a person in authority giving a minor an expensive gift.
2. The op herself not wanting to offend the person in authority or examine the possibility of him not being in a position of authority over the child.
This could be a boss, an accordion instructor, a principal, a priest, or a coordinator of volunteers at a hospital… Even a neighbor that has her pet sit. It is classic grooming behavior. It’s as if none of the other posters have ever taken a safe environment class!
Like I said the op doesn’t want to tell the alpha that his daughter is getting expensive gifts from men…
Yikes.
While I may not fly off the handle in a rage, I can tell you I would take care of this situation bluntly, and assuredly. Then, family friend, parish priest, respected leader or not I would shut any opportunity for that person to ever ever be one on one with my daughter. Ever.
**
Have we learned nothing as Catholics from the scandals except how to protect our children!?**

Bolding mine for emphasis, and to which I’d respond “sometimes, not even that.”

Seriously. It is not appropriate for an older man to give a young girl, especially a minor, a gift of clothing. Just…no.

However, OP, let’s leave that aside for the moment. The mere fact that this is causing secrecy between you and your husband is a problem. The most important human relationship in your family is between you and your husband. Having a situation in which you have to keep something a secret from him implies that either a) he’s an abuser who will blame and punish you for this situation, which is itself a problem or b) that there’s a problem with the relationship between this other guy and your daughter.

Also, consider for a moment the very real likelihood that your husband will find out about this eventually, and that there will be serious damage to the trust between you when he does if you kept it from him.

I have a hard question for you: why do you value this guy’s opinion of you and your daughter over your relationship with your husband?

Normal men do not give young girls expensive clothing gifts. At a bare minimum, he may be so socially unaware that he’s quite literally dangerous for his employer to employ. Even if nothing happens, for example, it’s epically stupid in this day and age for an adult to be alone in a room with an unaccompanied child and no possibility of oversight, but someone dense-yet-innocent enough to give a young girl a gift like that without meaning something would be the type to do something like that. This is why we’re taught in safe environment classes that if a kid wants to meet with us alone, alone means in the church sanctuary, preferably with the usual video cameras going, or perhaps outside on a bench where someone could walk past…not in an office and behind a closed door!

Lastly, you’re teaching your daughter to keep secrets from her dad, specifically about how another man treats her, and that that’s both normal and okay. Is that the lesson you want her to learn from this?

I repeat: either he’s grooming and he’s dangerous, or he’s so socially unaware that he’s dangerous.

OP, I’m not trying to be unkind to you here, but I am asking hard questions of you because this is such an important area for you, your marriage, and your daughter. I’m also asking them because a close family member was victimized by a pedophile for years while following a lot of the steps outlined above. In this case, the parents’ marriage wasn’t good, the pedophile paid a lot of attention to mom, mom was flattered because her husband hadn’t been, and mom grew to consider the pedophile a good, close friend. The whole time, he was using her to get at the kids. He groomed them plenty too, with gifts and special attention, but was doing some pretty unspeakable stuff while he was at it. Of course, the kids knew that Mom wouldn’t believe them if they said anything and would probably punish them for saying it anyhow, and were too scared to tell Dad for a variety of reasons. Horrible situation. Do not let yourself get pulled into a similar one.

 

[jmj777]

Dh is now completely aware of this situation and is also very saddened by it. I was able to temper his reaction so that he understands I’ve been trying to keep him and myself from jumping to conclusions while working on taking calculated steps.

I’ve spoken to her and she has reassured us there have been no instances of impropriety on any one’s part.

She’s not able to drive yet and he’s in his thirties.

The gift was given to my youngest daughter, in my presence, because I was preoccupied at the moment, with a message that it be given to sibling He left before I was available to speak to him.

It’s hard to decipher as I feel if there was mal intent involved he probably wouldn’t have been so blatant to do it in my presence.

Of course, there are people who also try to get in good with the parents, so that’s something we also understand. We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Peace.

+JMJ+

 

[AbideWithMe]

Dh is now completely aware of this situation and is also very saddened by it. I was able to temper his reaction so that he understands I’ve been trying to keep him and myself from jumping to conclusions while working on taking calculated steps.

I’ve spoken to her and she has reassured us there have been no instances of impropriety on any one’s part.

She’s not able to drive yet and he’s in his thirties.

The gift was given to my youngest daughter, in my presence, because I was preoccupied at the moment, with a message that it be given to sibling He left before I was available to speak to him.

It’s hard to decipher as I feel if there was mal intent involved he probably wouldn’t have been so blatant to do it in my presence.

Of course, there are people who also try to get in good with the parents, so that’s something we also understand. We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Peace.

+JMJ+

Thank you for the additional information, jmj777. You and your family and all involved have my prayers for God to give you wisdom.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Of course, there are people who also try to get in good with the parents, so that’s something we also understand. We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Peace.

+JMJ+

I don’t have children but I love kids and I was a horseback riding instructor for kids and adults for many years (both on my own farm and on other farms). I felt deeply honored by the respect and trust I was given by kids and parents. I would have been devastated to lose their friendship and regard, and my good name, if any parent had suspected me of anything (as a riding instructor, sometimes I had to put my hand on a leg, back, arm or stomach of a kid if they couldn’t isolate a muscle themselves, or understand my verbal instructions on how to breathe). I’m a woman, and I moved into full time artwork some time ago; but if I were a man, and still teaching, I’d be a less effective teacher out of fear of being suspected of something.

I’m just trying to offer a different perspective, from a happily single person without kids who used to work with children.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Did I miss some part of the thread where the op said her daughter is ever alone one-on-one with this man??? I don’t know if she did or not. Just as I believe a gift-giver may simply give to express thanks and that designer clothes without tags aren’t necessarily expensive, I also believe that a girl shouldn’t be alone with a man who isn’t a trusted relative. Gift or no gift, I wouldn’t do that!

op-
I’m glad you told your husband. And I do think you should follow your mother’s intuition if you suspect something. If you want her to withdraw from whatever organization or activity this was, then do it without worrying about what other people think.

I don’t personally see that this was necessarily an expensive gift, especially since they came without tags. The clothes may not have cost him any more than a $5 gift card for a coffee. Plus, lots of children’s activities give things like t-shirts, so if there is some kind of etiquette rule not to give other people’s children clothing, then that etiquette is violated often with free t-shirts from activity directors. I don’t know. I’m not there so trust your gut.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The gift was given to my youngest daughter, in my presence, because I was preoccupied at the moment, with a message that it be given to sibling He left before I was available to speak to him.

Peace.

+JMJ+

Is it possible, I wonder, to find out if a woman—like secretary—actually got the shirts rather than him? All the men I know hate to shop, and delegate gift-choosing (other than for their wives, if married) to a female secretary, co-worker, or relative, but then give the gifts themselves. Is that a worthwhile line of inquiry as you try to understand the situation?