Decline in catholic church

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What ecumenical Mass? There’s no such thing as Ecumenical Mass.
 
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tom.wineman:
I thought the new ecumenical Mass and the 'new song" philosophy the Church is singing was to prevent this.
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I think first you must explain yourself before we can comment.

The Mass is not new. Maybe the forms of it might appear to be new but some of them are traced back to very early times.
 
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beng:
What ecumenical Mass? There’s no such thing as Ecumenical Mass.
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The New Order Mass was designed to be as ecumenical as they could get away with.
 
*Yet, just one in three bishops follows “best practices” outlined by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, says Francis Butler of Foundations and Donors Interested in Catholic Activities Inc. *
*They don’t have to. Bishops are autonomous. They act with only as much guidance from laity, experts and each other as they choose. *
But they’re mistrustful of outside voices. Many of the same critics calling for financial transparency also challenge traditions such as celibacy.
The bishops see any reform as a slippery slope: “Give up oversight of the books and the next thing you know they’ll want women priests,” says David Gibson, author of The Coming Catholic Church. “They can’t separate … doctrine and bookkeeping.”
“You can’t trust your bishops. You can’t trust your priest. The parish where you were baptized and raised is being closed. And they want money to build a suburban church, but your kids aren’t going to Mass. For a church that prides itself on tradition and certainty, these are uncertain times,” says Gibson.

What does the style of the mass have to do with anything here? This is a bigger message than mass preferences…

I tend to agree that it isn’t so much the consequences of the priest scandal as much as it is just parents who only attended mass on holidays and for sacraments, raising children to do the same.

Dang.
It’s time to get the word out about the beauty of Catholicism so those occasional church goers can renew their faith and come to long for the mass as the rest of us do.

I don’t get the impression the bishops feel responsible for educating and leading their flock at all. I get the impression they are there if anyone seeks them out but that’s it. We need to become proactive here.

Between this article and the one in the Chicago Tribune about how worried the Pope is about secular Europe, I’m quite concerned.
 
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YinYangMom:
Dang.
It’s time to get the word out about the beauty of Catholicism so those occasional church goers can renew their faith and come to long for the mass as the rest of us do.

I don’t get the impression the bishops feel responsible for educating and leading their flock at all. I get the impression they are there if anyone seeks them out but that’s it. We need to become proactive here.

Between this article and the one in the Chicago Tribune about how worried the Pope is about secular Europe, I’m quite concerned.
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I agree totally. I get the same impression about the Bishops but in all fairness I don’t work closely with one so I don’t know what tasks they face. I deal with peopel from europe daily and their whole approach to faith and religion is sad.
 
tom.wineman said:
The New Order Mass was designed to be as ecumenical as they could get away with.
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Novus Ordo is not an ecumenical Mass.
 
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tom.wineman:
Google Father Stephen Somerville.

He was in on the new litergy back in th late 60’s. What do you think they call it the Novus Ordo .

Read

traditioninaction.org/religious/m002rpMisunderstandingMass.htm
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Showing your bias here.

It is not called the Novus Ordo, this is used by the detractors of the Mass.

Novus Ordo is Latin for New Order. You will not find this term used in an offical document of the Church. At best you will fine either 1970 Missal or the Missal of Pope Paul VI.

This missal is the standard or “normative” missal in use.
 
I haven’t noticed the mass to be ecumenical. If it was ecumenical I’d probably be able to receive the body/blood of Christ. I can’t, and won’t be able to for a while - so it isn’t ecumenical. Several other things would have to be changed too for people of any other church I’ve been in to be comfortable ecumenically.

And, I don’t know about worldwide, but the catholic church is not in decline in this town. 9 years ago the church moved to a different building, vacated by dwindling Anglicans, mainly because the catholics did not fit in the old catholic church. On quite a few Sunday mornings there have been people who haven’t had a pew or a seat to sit on. And lots of people go to mass in the evening but not the morning. Hopefully there will come a time when the catholics here either need a bigger building again, or a second building in another part of the town (of about 20,000 people).

Is this just a fluke, bucking a worldwide trend, or is this growth common?

Blessings

Asteroid
 
The troubles referred to in the original article, both in the USA and in Europe are due in my opinion to two things, both resulting from misapplication of Vatican II:
  1. Poor catachesis. How many Catholics know enough about their faith and why they do what they do? Many Catholics know little about purgatory, the importance of the Real presence, why we pray to Saints. Justification, sanctification and other vital elements of the Faith. Too many are easily confused by protestant “evangelists”, or atheists who say its all mumbo-jumbo.
    Since the 60s the Church has been teaching kids a sort of lowest-common-denominator “be nice to everyone”, “kumbaya” Christianity instead of the Catholic Faith.
No wonder there is a shortage of priests. Priesthood is a major life sacrifice. We no longer teach the vital importance of the priesthood and of Good Works. The priesthood is often portrayed as an optional extra to protestant-style salvation by Faith Alone. Why give up your life to be an optional extra?
  1. Changes in the Mass and Liturgical innovations. The old saying was “As we pray, so we believe.” De-sacralising the Mass by cutting down the ancient ceremonial and so reducing reverence, virtually abolishing kneeling to receive, and other folksy protestantising innovations mean that the VALUE of the mass and the importance of the miracle is often unwittingly reduced in the eyes of those who take part. That is one reason belief in the real presence has fallen. If it really is Jesus, why reduce the ceremonial? Why stand rather than kneel to receive? Why emphasise the communal-meal aspect, and de-emphasize the mystic sacrifice? Why tuck away the sacrament in a back room or side-altar?
Reduce the central importance of mass this way, and reduce belief in it, and no wonder people start thinking its not that important to miss a few masses.
 
Catechesis is almost always the issue when the Church hits troubles like this-- if people knew what the faith was really about, ones hopes that most of them wouldn’t ignore it or abuse it the way they do!

However, on a larger scale, Americans (and maybe the new liberal Europeans too) are afraid of obedience. We’re afraid of confronting something that’s bigger than us, that has claims on us, that can compel us to live our lives in a way other than the path of least resistance. Given this fact, combined with poor catechesis, of course we’re going to see a bunch of priests, laity and even some bishops who want to abolish all sense of majesty, grandeur and mystery from the Mass and turn it into a campfire singalong-- everyone wants to make sure that we’re still comfortable in our “my-opinions-are-just-as-good-as-God’s” attitude. Of course, once we get to that point, you only need to go to Mass if you feel like it.

What’s the way out? First, as our Papa has also said, we’ve got to not be afraid. Living in Christ, as the Church does, meaning dying with Him-- but also rising with Him! I’m a 21-year-old college student (at a secularist Lutheran college), and I feel so blessed to have a wonderful group of very devoted, orthodox Catholic friends who are in love with their God and their Church-- and this despite the fact that many of us wish for more stirring music, fewer priestly departures from the rubrics, and fewer rounds of applause at the parish Masses.

Two summers ago I worked at Catholic Youth Camp in northern Minnesota with about 25 other young Catholics from around the state. It was the most beautiful faith experience of my life. The holiness that was present in that community just floored me, and it has permanently influenced my conception of what’s possible in the Church. So-- sursum corda! Christ is alive in our hearts and in our world, and He’s not gonna abandon us!
 
While we’re low on priests in our diocese (we still have enough to go around) our pews are packed. I mean, if you show up late, you will be standing sometimes outside the Church and this is in a huge diocese in California.

The Church we were married in about 35 - 40 miles from our house used to be way less crowded 15 years ago and now it’s also packed.

Don’t think you can trust everything you read in USA Today. I actually attribute the boom to authentic teachings finally being revealed even in our wayward diocese.

The decline in attendence started before VII. I think we’re finally bouncing back from that. Society seem to be changing and I think that people are finally seeing the need for morals again.
 
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beng:
Novus Ordo is not an ecumenical Mass.
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It will do fine 🙂

**Where were you forty years ago when Vatican Two was up and running ? The new Mass by any other name was the result of that. One of the main purposes of Vatican 2 was to ecumenicalize the church. Make it more acceptable to our Protestant brothers. In fact they were invited in on it. **

A refresher course from the encyclopedia.

[home.att.net/~tom.wineman/Second_Vatican.txt](http://home.att.net/~tom.wineman/Second_Vatican.txt)
 
tom.wineman said:
It will do fine 🙂

**Where were you forty years ago when Vatican Two was up and running ? The new Mass by any other name was the result of that. One of the main purposes of Vatican 2 was to ecumenicalize the church. Make it more acceptable to our Protestant brothers. In fact they were invited in on it. **

A refresher course from the encyclopedia.

[home.att.net/~tom.wineman/Second_Vatican.txt](http://home.att.net/~tom.wineman/Second_Vatican.txt)
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Please show proof that the purpose of Vatican II was to “ecumenicalize the Church”.

I am sorry but I will not except the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia for this sort of proof.

Why do you not admit that you are starting from a biased point of view?
 
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ByzCath:
Please show proof that the purpose of Vatican II was to “ecumenicalize the Church”.

I am sorry but I will not except the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia for this sort of proof.

Why do you not admit that you are starting from a biased point of view?
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La De Da. Talk about bias and
conceit. What is your unbiased version and proof ? I lived thru it.
 
tom.wineman said:
La De Da. Talk about bias. What is your unbiased version and proof ? I lived thru it.
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My unbiased version and proof is that I follow what the Church Teaches.

Who do you follow? Who is the authority in your sight?
 
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