Decoding what it means to say the Vatican has a ‘gay lobby’

[gilliam]

…Here’s the confusing thing: When Italians say “gay lobby,” they don’t mean “lobby” in the conventional political sense, and they often don’t really mean “gay” in the sense that sex has much to do with it.

For Americans, a “lobby” is a political pressure group with a clear set of aims. We think of the National Rifle Association’s fight against gun control, for instance, or Planned Parenthood’s defense of abortion rights.

Yet when Italians say there’s a “gay lobby” in the Vatican, they don’t mean an organized faction with the aim of changing Church teaching on homosexuality or same-sex marriage.

Instead, what they have in mind is an informal, loosely organized network of clergy who support one another, keep one another’s secrets, and help one another move up the ladder. The group is perceived to have a vested interest in thwarting attempts at reform, since they benefit from secrecy and old-guard ways.

It’s called “gay” because, the theory goes, a Vatican official’s homosexuality can be a very powerful secret, especially if he’s sexually active, and threatening to expose him can be an effective way of keeping him in line. It’s hardly the only such possibility, however, and, in any event, the emphasis is not on sex but secrecy, as well as the related impression of people getting promoted or decisions being made on the basis of personal quid pro quos.

That’s not to say that the perception of a widespread presence of gays in the clergy isn’t a strong part of the picture, especially in light of the furor last fall over Polish Monsignor Krzysztof Charamsa, the former Vatican official who outed himself on the brink of a controversial Synod of Bishops on the family.

Yet the speculation over a “lobby” isn’t really about sexual orientation, but the impression of a system in which people living personally conflicted lives look out for one another. In that sense, the term “gay lobby” is often synonymous for Italian-speakers with corruption, secrecy, and a sleazy sort of personal patronage.

…

Instead, in Vaticanese, “gay lobby” is a placeholder term for all sorts of corruption and mutual back-scratching, and “taking it on” means a drive for transparency, accountability, and doing things in the full light of day rather than under the cover of darkness.

So, in sum: The Vatican’s supposed “gay lobby” is not a lobby, and it’s not exclusively about being gay. No wonder it’s a head-scratcher for people who don’t follow the place … and sometimes, even for those who do.

cruxnow.com/church/2016/01/15/decoding-what-it-means-to-say-the-vatican-has-a-gay-lobby/

 

[zab]

Thanks for posting this explanation, gilliam.

 

[7_Sorrows]

have they ever thought of changing the name so it wouldn’t confuse people?

 

[gilliam]

have they ever thought of changing the name so it wouldn’t confuse people?

I don’t think we should ask people in another country to use terms used in the US because if they don’t we get confused. Instead we should find out what they mean by the term and not assume anything.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t think we should ask people in another country to use terms used in the US because if they don’t we get confused. Instead we should find out what they mean by the term and not assume anything.

wouldn’t gay lobby then be an English translation of Italian? what is the term in Italian. maybe we need a better English translation.
reminds me of lavender mafia.

 

[BartholomewB]

wouldn’t gay lobby then be an English translation of Italian? what is the term in Italian. maybe we need a better English translation.
reminds me of lavender mafia.

I think you’ve put your finger on it. When the expression “gay lobby” is used in Italian, it means what we call in English a “lavender mafia”.

 

[LongingSoul]

…Here’s the confusing thing: When Italians say “gay lobby,” they don’t mean “lobby” in the conventional political sense, and they often don’t really mean “gay” in the sense that sex has much to do with it.

For Americans, a “lobby” is a political pressure group with a clear set of aims. We think of the National Rifle Association’s fight against gun control, for instance, or Planned Parenthood’s defense of abortion rights.

Yet when Italians say there’s a “gay lobby” in the Vatican, they don’t mean an organized faction with the aim of changing Church teaching on homosexuality or same-sex marriage.

Instead, what they have in mind is an informal, loosely organized network of clergy who support one another, keep one another’s secrets, and help one another move up the ladder. The group is perceived to have a vested interest in thwarting attempts at reform, since they benefit from secrecy and old-guard ways.

It’s called “gay” because, the theory goes, a Vatican official’s homosexuality can be a very powerful secret, especially if he’s sexually active, and threatening to expose him can be an effective way of keeping him in line. It’s hardly the only such possibility, however, and, in any event, the emphasis is not on sex but secrecy, as well as the related impression of people getting promoted or decisions being made on the basis of personal quid pro quos.

That’s not to say that the perception of a widespread presence of gays in the clergy isn’t a strong part of the picture, especially in light of the furor last fall over Polish Monsignor Krzysztof Charamsa, the former Vatican official who outed himself on the brink of a controversial Synod of Bishops on the family.

Yet the speculation over a “lobby” isn’t really about sexual orientation, but the impression of a system in which people living personally conflicted lives look out for one another. In that sense, the term “gay lobby” is often synonymous for Italian-speakers with corruption, secrecy, and a sleazy sort of personal patronage.

…

Instead, in Vaticanese, “gay lobby” is a placeholder term for all sorts of corruption and mutual back-scratching, and “taking it on” means a drive for transparency, accountability, and doing things in the full light of day rather than under the cover of darkness.

So, in sum: The Vatican’s supposed “gay lobby” is not a lobby, and it’s not exclusively about being gay. No wonder it’s a head-scratcher for people who don’t follow the place … and sometimes, even for those who do.

cruxnow.com/church/2016/01/15/decoding-what-it-means-to-say-the-vatican-has-a-gay-lobby/

I can really understand the sense that the Italians are conveying. You see it in lots of big organisations. At one point the government telecommunications department in our district had an environment very much like the one described in the Vatican. There was not official body or organisation like the Masons had in their campaign to masonise a workplace… but that there was the ‘taking care of our sort’ type of thing going on.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Wow. Crux can spin anything it seems. Shameful.

 

[Suudy]

Wow. Crux can spin anything it seems. Shameful.

Fr Z talks about this, and he indicates that Allen’s understanding of “lobby” is spot on. However, he does think there is some spin on “gay.”

 

[boomerang]

So, in sum: The Vatican’s supposed “gay lobby” is not a lobby, and it’s not exclusively about being gay.

Yes it is! If they cover up for each other, and finagle to promote one another, it’s a lobby. And if all “members” are gay, it’s a gay lobby. Ridiculous, excuse-making article written by the blind, for the blind.

 

[JimG]

I think you’ve put your finger on it. When the expression “gay lobby” is used in Italian, it means what we call in English a “lavender mafia”.

Yes, and the term “lavender mafia” was used of some seminary administrations in past years because of the prevalence of homosexuals therein and the tacit approval of homosexuality.

Nobody is calling it the “alcoholic lobby.”

 

[gilliam]

Yes it is! If they cover up for each other, and finagle to promote one another, it’s a lobby. And if all “members” are gay, it’s a gay lobby. Ridiculous, excuse-making article written by the blind, for the blind.

But two people who are not gay may be covering up for each other because of other things, mistresses, embellishment, on the town partying frequently, gambling, etc. and they would still be referred to as part of the ‘gay lobby’ of the Vatican. The term doesn’t mean, as Americans seem to think, a bunch of homosexuals trying to change Church doctrine to embrace homosexuality. Sorry, it just doesn’t mean that.

 

[sps49]

But two people who are not gay may be covering up for each other because of other things, mistresses, embellishment, on the town partying frequently, gambling, etc. and they would still be referred to as part of the ‘gay lobby’ of the Vatican. The term doesn’t mean, as Americans seem to think, a bunch of homosexuals trying to change Church doctrine to embrace homosexuality. Sorry, it just doesn’t mean that.

John L. Allen Jr. makes an argument based on and about nuance, but there are other opinions that counter this. Simply saying “Sorry, it just doesn’t mean that.” doesn’t answer the mail. For example, Cardinal Rodriguez, whose native tongue is arguably closer to Italian than English has a different interpretation of what “gay lobby” (or its equivalent) means. The Italians would probably call it “gruppi di pressione,” or an informal special interest or pressure group. In the US, lobbies are an open part of our political system, while in Italy, informal special interest groups fulfill the same function, to represent the interests and agenda of a particular group, but behind the scenes. It is an age old practice, and there is evidence that it exists.

 

[gilliam]

John Allen is intimately familiar with the Vatican and Vatican politics. He knows what the term means.

I won’t go into what someone else interprets what yet another person might think the term means (although I don’t read a homosexual cabal to change church teaching on homosexuals in the cardinal’s meaning of the word.) Anyway, I am only passing on what someone who daily lives and works in the Vatican says the term means and it doesn’t mean what many here seem to think it means.

By the way, I have a lot of clerical friends and I have yet to meet such a cabal in real life in the States either.

 

[sps49]

John Allen is intimately familiar with the Vatican and Vatican politics. He knows what the term means.

Please. While Allen may have have a notion of what it means for him, others have equally valid ideas of what it means in a general and a sense specific to this situation.

I won’t go into what someone else interprets what yet another person might think the term means (although I don’t read a homosexual cabal to change church teaching on homosexuals in the cardinal’s meaning of the word.) Anyway, I am only passing on what someone who daily lives and works in the Vatican says the term means and it doesn’t mean what many here seem to think it means.

Allen’s entire article is all about interpretation and nuance, and you not only passed it on, you endorsed it, which is a sign that you judged that it was the correct interpretation. Others significantly disagree.

By the way, I have a lot of clerical friends and I have yet to meet such a cabal in real life in the States either.

There are cliques, old boy networks, coteries, camps, factions, etc. in all societies, to say otherwise is absurd.

 

[graciew]

Please. While Allen may have have a notion of what it means for him, others have equally valid ideas of what it means in a general and a sense specific to this situation.

Allen’s entire article is all about interpretation and nuance, and you not only passed it on, you endorsed it, which is a sign that you judged that it was the correct interpretation. Others significantly disagree.

There are cliques, old boy networks, coteries, camps, factions, etc. in all societies, to say otherwise is absurd.

And what is the correct interpretation for you , concretely , than differs from what Guilliam has posted ?
And what do you base your discrepamcy upon ?
I do not understand what you understand by gay lobby that is not explained in the article.

 

[NeedImprovement]

All *social engineering *is preceded by *verbal engineering.
*
And the first step in verbal engineering , is to change or soften standard definitions - which subsequently essentially dictates any of the critical conditions and terms which will follow for debate.

It would make sense for us to remain vigilant enough as to not inadvertently do the homosexual lobby, homosexual activists , lavender mafia (or whatever else you want to call them) any favors : All of them can still be seen as belonging to that same group who promote and/or are sympathetic to the homosexual agenda; whether tightly-knit or loosely connected, they all have one common objective.

The National Catholic Register article by Edward Pentin Cardinal Rodriguez: Homosexual Lobby Exists in the Vatican , said that Pope Francis

“. . . acknowledged the presence of a homosexual network of priests at the Vatican.”

We should make an effort not to let that fact get snowed under by idiomatic nuances.

. . . An excerpt from *THE ART OF VERBAL ENGINEERING , by Rita L. Marker and Wesley Smith *depicts how verbal engineering was employed to lay the groundwork for current legalization of euthansia , and can be read in PDF form by clicking HERE.

 

[7_Sorrows]

All *social engineering *is preceded by *verbal engineering.
*
And the first step in verbal engineering , is to change or soften standard definitions - which subsequently essentially dictates any of the critical conditions and terms which will follow for debate.

It would make sense for us to remain vigilant enough as to not inadvertently do the homosexual lobby, homosexual activists , lavender mafia (or whatever else you want to call them) any favors : All of them can still be seen as belonging to that same group who promote and/or are sympathetic to the homosexual agenda; whether tightly-knit or loosely connected, they all have one common objective.

The National Catholic Register article by Edward Pentin Cardinal Rodriguez: Homosexual Lobby Exists in the Vatican , said that Pope Francis

We should make an effort not to let that fact get snowed under by idiomatic nuances.

. . . An excerpt from *THE ART OF VERBAL ENGINEERING , by Rita L. Marker and Wesley Smith *depicts how verbal engineering was employed to lay the groundwork for current legalization of euthansia , and can be read in PDF form by clicking HERE.

thank you for this. it makes a lot of sense. I don’t have time right now to read the PDF, but what you have written I certainly agree with. I will tty to read PDF later today.

 

[sps49]

And what is the correct interpretation for you , concretely , than differs from what Guilliam has posted ?
And what do you base your discrepamcy upon ?
I do not understand what you understand by gay lobby that is not explained in the article.

I challenged Allen’s narrow interpretation, and Guilliam’s use of it as an authoritative source, of the term “gay lobby.” Concretely? There is nothing concrete in Allen’s article, it is a nuance driven piece, which was his point, to cast doubt that there could be such a thing as a “gay lobby” by the use of forced perspective. My discrepancy? I don’t have a “discrepancy,” but I have a different point of view than he has, which I pointed out. It is well known that special interest groups exist, and whether they are called “gay lobby” or “gruppi di pressione” is beside the point. Since Cardinal Rodriguez has a different view on this issue than Allen, there is another reason to doubt Allen’s assertion.

 

[TMC]

I challenged Allen’s narrow interpretation, and Guilliam’s use of it as an authoritative source, of the term “gay lobby.” Concretely? There is nothing concrete in Allen’s article, it is a nuance driven piece, which was his point, to cast doubt that there could be such a thing as a “gay lobby” by the use of forced perspective. My discrepancy? I don’t have a “discrepancy,” but I have a different point of view than he has, which I pointed out. It is well known that special interest groups exist, and whether they are called “gay lobby” or “gruppi di pressione” is beside the point. Since Cardinal Rodriguez has a different view on this issue than Allen, there is another reason to doubt Allen’s assertion.

What is Cardinal Rodriguez’s different view? My impression is that everyone is saying more or less the same thing - that there is a network of gay men within the Vatican that work for and look out for one another, and that this group is commonly referred to as the “gay lobby.” Is someone saying something different than that?