Deeper understanding of no relations?

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If we’re going that route, there is not one mention of Mary (the Virgin) having other children. Nowhere is anyone but Jesus referred to as a son or daughter of Mary (the Virgin).

Meanwhile, neither Hebrew nor Aramaic had a word for cousin. In every day speaking to one another, referring to close relatives simply as “brethren” was far more common than referring to your relatives by circumlocution. When written into the Gospels, it’s a simple matter for it to have been transliterated when writing or speaking Greek.
Hi!

…it’s the ole, ‘do as I say, not as I do.’

They can twist and construct; but Catholics cannot deduce from Scriptures–they must stick to the letter of the text… but not use the letter of the text to hold non-Catholics accountable–how dare Catholics demand fairness!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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jcrichton:
…just a couple of aah hmms…
Didn’t Jesus write in the dirt when the scribes and pharisees wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery? Didn’t some of the disciples write Scripture? I think they were more literate than people think. Remember, Jesus and His disciples were businessmen (carpenter, fishermen, tax collector, etc…). You had to be able to read and write (at least on a basic level), otherwise you would run the risk of being taken advantage of. The people weren’t amazed that Jesus could read. They were amazed that he was able to expound the Scriptures, even though He had never attended the equivalent of a seminary (the Pharisees made the same observation of the Apostles in Acts). It would be similar to a High School graduate correctly explaining some point of astrophysics to a group of people (including some astronomers).

In regard to the Reformation, that is not the topic of this thread, but it is an interesting subject.
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Wesrock:
If we’re going that route, there is not one mention of Mary (the Virgin) having other children. Nowhere is anyone but Jesus referred to as a son or daughter of Mary (the Virgin).
The Scripture does give the testimony of those who knew the family of Jesus (Matt 13:54-56). Since the Gospels are concerned with Jesus, it is not surprising that there is no mention of Mary giving birth to others. That being said, it still identifies 4 named men and 2 (or more) unnamed women as brothers and sisters in the context of a family unit.
Meanwhile, neither Hebrew nor Aramaic had a word for cousin. In every day speaking to one another, referring to close relatives simply as “brethren” was far more common than referring to your relatives by circumlocution. When written into the Gospels, it’s a simple matter for it to have been transliterated when writing or speaking Greek.
First, the Scriptures were inspired by God. Second, God knows the relationship of Jesus and these brothers and sisters. Third, God directed that the Scriptures (those which even your church agrees are divinely inspired) should be written in Greek. Fourth, Scripture nowhere identifies these brothers or sisters of Jesus as being any other relationship (unlike with Abraham and Lot). Conclusion - your argument is refuted (unless you want to assert that the writers were able to “thwart” (for lack of a better term) the inspiration of God, and wrote in The “Hebraism” instead of what God actually wanted them to write).
 
Crown of Stars, as a former Catholic, I can tell you why I don’t believe Mary was a perpetual virgin. To begin with, let’s remember what Jesus said about the Corban rule (Mark 7:1-13). Here, Jesus shows us how we are to test traditions. Following His example, I find Matt 13:54-56 says,
Your response personifies the utter failure of sola scriptura. Holy writ, i.e.revealed truth, is not discerned by the use of a dictionary or delving into the etymology of a given word. It is only when truth was subjected to personal opinion in a climate of anti-Catholic hatred and bigotry that this man-made argument arose. The Archangel Gabriel, communicating the exact message that God desired, told Mary that she would bear “a Son” - singular. She did not expect to bear even a single child! Go through the entire New Testament as many times as you like and you will find zero evidence of any other child of Mary. Brothers and sisters of the Lord are extremely easily and consistently explained - but not to those who conjured up this canard.

Please read the Book of Tobit. In it, you see that members of the same tribe (of the twelve tribes of Israel) were all brothers and sisters - that a man married his “sister” from the same tribe and indeed was not intended to marry outside of the tribe.
Tobit 4:12 “Beware, my son, of all immorality. First of all take a wife from among the descendants of your fathers and do not marry a foreign woman, who is not of your father’s tribe; for we are the sons of the prophets. Remember, my son, that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our fathers of old, all took wives from among their brethren. They were blessed in their children, and their posterity will inherit the land.
Tobit 7:16 And Rag′uel called his wife Edna and said to her, “Sister, make up the other room, and take her into it.”
But, and this is crucial to the truth, a man did not marry a sister borne by his mother. Rather, he was expected to marry a relative who by that tribal relationship was known as sister. Those of the same geographical area were also brothers and sisters. Outside of the secular west, this is still the case today.

Read Luke 1. How could Mary be the bond slave/handmaid of her Son by having numerous children? Mary had one Child. Jesus had numerous brothers and sisters, as he was from the line of David. No, this is an attack on the truth simply because the Catholic Church teaches it. The reformers would be shocked to hear such profane opinions, as it lowers and makes common the mother which our Lord created for Himself. Ponder that for a moment or two.

Mary did eventually have another son: John. Read John 19:26-27.

To paraphrase our Lord, “How long have you been here and you still do not understand this?”
 
Didn’t Jesus write in the dirt when the scribes and pharisees wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery? Didn’t some of the disciples write Scripture? I think they were more literate than people think. Remember, Jesus and His disciples were businessmen (carpenter, fishermen, tax collector, etc…). You had to be able to read and write (at least on a basic level), otherwise you would run the risk of being taken advantage of. The people weren’t amazed that Jesus could read. They were amazed that he was able to expound the Scriptures, even though He had never attended the equivalent of a seminary (the Pharisees made the same observation of the Apostles in Acts). It would be similar to a High School graduate correctly explaining some point of astrophysics to a group of people (including some astronomers).

In regard to the Reformation, that is not the topic of this thread, but it is an interesting subject.
Hi!

…there’s exegesis and then there’s eisegesis… you are looking into what you believe they mean to say not what they are saying: ‘hey, how can this be, this guy never went to school once in his life, how can he read through this complex material and give such profound and clear explanations?’ Jesus… ‘yo, Got it from My Pops!–then He does that air-two hands’ up thing… and he squares Himself up!

…thought a little visual would help! :D:D:D

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I’d like to provide this quotation from Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism:

The first thing to note, when trying to understand such verses, is that the term “brother” has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to brothers german or half brothers. The same goes for “sister” and the plural “brethren”. Lot is described as Abraham’s “brother” (Gen 14:14), but Lot was the son of Aran, Abraham’s deceased brother (Gen 11:26-28); this means Lot was really Abraham’s nephew. Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen 29:1 f). Cis and Eleazar were the sons of Moholi; Cis had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren”, the sons of Cis. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chron 23:21-22),

The terms “brethren”, “brother”, and “sister” did not refer only to close relatives, as in the above examples. Sometimes they meant only a kinsman (Dt 23:7; 2 Esd 5:7; Jer 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two “brethren” of king Ochozias (2 Kings 10:13-14). The words could mean even people apparently unrelated, such as a friend (2 Sam 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32), or just an ally (Amos 1:9).

What’s interesting to note, also, is that when the original Hebrew of the Old Testament was translated to Greek, and the Greek proliferated throughout the Jewish diaspora and is what was most quoted by the New Testament authors, the Greek translators transliterated the references of “brothers” and “sisters” even though there were greek words available to describe the relationship.
The Scripture does give the testimony of those who knew the family of Jesus (Matt 13:54-56). Since the Gospels are concerned with Jesus, it is not surprising that there is no mention of Mary giving birth to others. That being said, it still identifies 4 named men and 2 (or more) unnamed women as brothers and sisters in the context of a family unit.
It’s the last part of your phrase that fails. “In the context of a family unit.” That’s a context not stated by scripture and which fails when actually put into the context of first century Jewish sibling responsibilities and relationships towards younger and older siblings. Furthermore, you assume that context even though the Hebrew and Aramaic language, which is the language that the disciples would have referred to one another in most commonly, do not imply it. Even if we assume a immediate family familial relation, again, they are never referred to as “sons of Mary,” even though the New Testament doesn’t hesitate to tell us who important disciples were sons of. They could have been sons of Joseph from a prior marriage, but that’s not necessary, either.
First, the Scriptures were inspired by God.
Yes. The thing is, we probably have different understandings of what the scriptures being “inspired” means. You seem to have a very Islamic perception of scripture, in that it seems to you that it was dictated word-for-word by God, whereas the Catholics understand it to mean that the writers wrote with their own personalities and understandings and biases and genre, but wrote inerrantly (that is, they were prevented by God from writing error) on matters of faith and morals.

Let’s take this quote from Saint Paul in his letter to Philemon:

"Thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius; so that no one can say it was in my name you were baptized. (Yes, and I did baptize the household of Stephanas; I do not know that I baptized anyone else.)”

Did God forget who Paul baptized? Or require a train-of-though correction to himself? Was Paul “thwarting” God’s inspiration? Or was he not writing what God wanted him to write?
Second, God knows the relationship of Jesus and these brothers and sisters.
Of course.
Third, God directed that the Scriptures (those which even your church agrees are divinely inspired) should be written in Greek.
Well, it fit into God’s plan that Greek was a very extensive language throughout the empire. It wouldn’t have worked as well if that wasn’t the case, but Greek isn’t a holy language. Matthew is also attested to have been first composed in Aramaic. We have no extant copies, unfortunately, but neither do we have the original Greek copies of Matthew.
Fourth, Scripture nowhere identifies these brothers or sisters of Jesus as being any other relationship (unlike with Abraham and Lot). Conclusion - your argument is refuted (unless you want to assert that the writers were able to “thwart” (for lack of a better term) the inspiration of God, and wrote in The “Hebraism” instead of what God actually wanted them to write).
There’s no thwarting of inspiration, I just wonder where you got this definition of “inspiration” from, anyway. It’s certainly not scriptural. Sounds like a “tradition made ‘dogma’” that’s nowhere attested to in scripture and which you only accept on the authority of men and women who, oddly enough, claim they don’t have the authority needed to make any such non-scriptural doctrinal determinations.

Given the thin thread your arguments hang on, I’m not sure I buy that you’ve refuted anything. Whether cousins or (step-)nephews/nieces (entirely feasible given the language) or step-siblings, scripture never states that Mary had any children besides Jesus, and both scriptural evidence and the majority of Church testimony allows us to conclude that she didn’t.

Maybe stating that Mary was a perpetual virgin can be seen as “adding” to scripture (at least turning what’s seen as implicit into an explicit statement). You stating that Mary had other children is also certainly adding to scripture, at best in the same way. But my faith doesn’t take scripture as the sole rule of faith. But it sounds like yours might (?). So I don’t see *myself *as being in a bind over the issue.
 
Could you point out where Matt 27:55-56 or John 19:25 says these were the “brothers” of Jesus?
These specific verses don’t identify “brothers” of Jesus, they identify the mothers of your “brothers” of Jesus… “brothers” from other mothers
Regardless, I maintain my belief that Joseph and Mary did, in fact, engage in normal, marital relations resulting in 4 more sons and 2 or more daughters.
The following post, from another thread, pretty much sums it up for me…
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Tantum_ergo:
Also, consider that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the legitimate Son of God.

Did God stop being the Father of Jesus? No. Since God is the legitimate father and Mary the legitimate mother, the only way for Mary to take ‘another’ husband without commiting adultery would be if God wasn’t really the legitimate Father or that He ‘divorced’ Mary.

OR, if Mary had REALLY been planning to marry and consummate the marriage with Joseph, what does that make God? It makes God the kind of God who like the Greek and Roman gods beds human women, has ‘half-human/half God’ offspring and then casts the woman aside as not ‘good’ enough for Olympus. It makes God into the kind of God who takes Mary to be the mother of HIS child and CUCKOLDING Joseph.

Is it FAIR of God to take a woman who was promised and intended to marry another man, impregnate her, and then say to Joseph, “OK, I’ve used her the way I want, NOW you can have her after me?” Is it fair to the relationship of a man and woman who planned to have ‘regular’ sexual relations to have the woman raising (as the man’s) the child of ANOTHER man and expect their lives to ‘go on as planned?’

Is it fair of God to play around with the love of a man and woman, which is what it would have been if Mary had planned to have a ‘sexual’ marriage with Joseph?

Is it fair to JESUS for God to use His mother as an ‘incubator’ and then leave Jesus as a huge reminder to Joseph, always feeling ‘apart’ from the ‘other kids’ who would be both Mary’s and Joseph’s? To put Joseph in the shoes of having to raise "the son of God’ and have that child (who was not Joseph’s ‘own’) always be considered as the oldest son, the heir, while the younger boys who ‘were’ Joseph’s ‘own’ would not have their true rights as the REAL ‘sons’ of Joseph?? How do you think those children would feel about their brother? Would they even really believe He was the son of God, and not some ‘lie’ foisted by Mary onto their father? How would they view their mother --as somebody who tried to lie and cheat and raise some ‘bastard’ above them and take their legal rights and status, take all the attention?

NOT exactly the kind of family you would think that God would want for any child, let alone that by your thinking God would have PLANNED to cuckold Joseph, rob Joseph’s ‘own’ children of their legal rights, and put them in the position of being party to what would have been lies (Jesus was NOT ‘the son of the carpenter’ or the ‘oldest child’, Mary would have been viewed as a slut, the children’s status even when the truth ‘came out’ would have been even WORSE than before). . .

Whereas by the grace of God and the testimony and the grace accorded by the Holy Spirit who LEADS US TO ALL TRUTH – the understanding of the truth --that God did NOT cuckold Joseph, that there were no ‘other children’ who would be robbed of their rights and would be made miserable–we have a situation where Joseph is shown to be a righteous, chaste, and WORTHY foster father to the ONE child for whom he freely takes on responsibility ‘on earth’. . .we have Mary’s love not divided between ‘God’ and ‘earthly’ but fully given to God and SUPPORTED by Joseph–we have Jesus not overshadowing and robbing his brothers and sisters or being unfairly elevated, but living with a father and mother who could devote themselves to GOD and His Son without anything coming between.

It’s so much more reasonable a picture–and it’s also the picture that has been presented through Christianity over the last 2000 years and endorsed by greater thinkers than any of us here –

in fact, the idea that Joseph and Mary were sexually ‘intimate’ was not even a concept which the first PROTESTANTS believed as is shown by the fact that Martin Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. It is very much a ‘modern’ idea based on the hypersexualization of our culture along with the often unconscious desire to try to make Mary (and Joseph, and even Jesus) into more ‘human’ people, i.e., people ‘just like us’. . .and to dismiss as ‘absurd’ ideas such as perpetual virginity, continence, and giving ‘all’ to God instead of living a ‘normal’ life and giving Him anything ‘left over’ when and if it suits us too. . .

As I said earlier, the Bible is an excellent TOOL but it is not self-interpreting nor is it our AUTHORITY. There is a lot the Bible never tells us (what did Jesus do between the ages of 12 and 30, for example), and that’s because it doesn’t HAVE to. The Church has the authority to teach (and the Church’s teachings will not CONTRADICT Scripture and in fact the perpetual virginity does NOT contradict Scripture in any way). . .but it doesn’t HAVE to tell us WHY, WHEN, WHERE and HOW as if it were discussing a movie of the week about Mary’s perpetual virginity, complete with touching backstory and ‘guaranteed proof from eyewitness reports’. The Church teaches that Mary was a perpetual Virgin, it’s in the catechism, it’s in the teachings spread back over the centuries because that’s the way the Holy Spirit wanted to have us taught.
 
I believe I have already addressed many of your references above.
Discounted them, you mean.
That being said, it still identifies 4 named men and 2 (or more) unnamed women as brothers and sisters
Acts 1:15 – “At that time, Peter got up among the brothers (there were about 120 people…”

That’s not Mary Ever Virgin, that would be Mary Ever Pregnant.
 
Hi, Erich!

…wait, they had camels and a bathtub?

…I suspect that, just as His blood siblings, these are luxuries that Jesus did not enjoy!

Maran atha!

Angel
I thought only the well off and more showy, for that time, had camels. The Magi comes to mind. Or royalty. Joseph and Mary, I figure, would have had at least a donkey, possibly other animals. I love the thought of a bathtub! Actually, I like to figure they really might have, in a sense. Inside the house, or outside, up on the roof, a small stone tub that would be filled with water warmed over a fire, and some sort of soap and herbal oils. Certainly perceivable. They might have really had things, small luxuries, that we take for granted they didn’t, only because of how long ago it was:)
 
Hi!

…once they established, and held, that each individual person can determine for him/herself what God actually means to convey through Sacred Writings… well the sky’s been their limit!

‘…why follow “xyz” when they are waaaay too Catholic? …just upload your own understanding and teach that as the fundamental tenet/s of the faith–and don’t be afraid to be flippant or extremely creative!’

Maran atha!

Angel
👍
 
I thought only the well off and more showy, for that time, had camels. The Magi comes to mind. Or royalty. Joseph and Mary, I figure, would have had at least a donkey, possibly other animals. I love the thought of a bathtub! Actually, I like to figure they really might have, in a sense. Inside the house, or outside, up on the roof, a small stone tub that would be filled with water warmed over a fire, and some sort of soap and herbal oils. Certainly perceivable. They might have really had things, small luxuries, that we take for granted they didn’t, only because of how long ago it was:)
Hi!

I was born in a small poor nation… the poor had access to few luxuries… many items would have double uses (as a basin for bathing and doing laundry); so I imagine that Joseph would not be able to afford many luxury items; one particular come to mind: inside plumbing.

The burro issue might well be a necessity… being a carpenter St. Joseph may have had to travel to quarries and wilderness to gather materials for his work–the donkey could well have been the first affordable-all-terrain RV/UV–still there would’ve been days that he would have to rely on the ole #11. :juggle::juggle::juggle:

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Are you saying that Jesus (the elder brother) is responsible for the actions of His younger siblings?
No… I’m saying that He’s responsible for His own actions. And, if He really did have younger brothers, His actions would have been beyond irregular, to the point of being offensive to his brothers. Imagine if your older brother leaves your mom in the care of one of his buddies, rather than in the care of you and your siblings, as he’s dying. Now imagine it within the strict familial context of Palestine in the 1st century A.D. It would have been insulting.
First, there is no account of His brothers being around when He was crucified.
Not sure what you’re saying here. Are you claiming only that they weren’t present, or that they were no longer alive? If the latter, it wouldn’t matter – Mary would fall to their care upon Jesus’ death. If the latter, then you’re making a rather strong claim – one that you cannot back up from Scripture.
Second, John was “the disciple Jesus loved”. As a disciple of Jesus, and no siblings around, it was appropriate for Him to entrust His mother to the care of a trusted (and loved) disciple (John).
That’s not what’s in play. Read the rest of the verse: “from that hour the disciple took her into his home.” The question isn’t “were they at the foot of the cross?”, it’s “were they alive?” If so, then care of their mother “from that hour” fell to them, not a beloved friend. If not… well, please demonstrate that from Scripture.
This does not describe an “extended” family. Please, do not add to what the Scriptures say!
I’m not – I’m pointing out the gaps that Scripture fills in, in other parts of Matthew and in John.
Could you point out where Matt 27:55-56 or John 19:25 says these were the “brothers” of Jesus?
Mary, wife of Clopas, was the sister of Jesus’ mother (John 19:25). Mary, wife of Clopas, was the mother of James and Joseph (Matthew 27:55). Therefore, James and Joseph were the nephews of the Virgin Mary, and cousins – adelphoi – of Jesus. Glad to oblige. 😉
You know they were not the only people with these names. When I was in college, I had a group of friends, several of which were named Mike.
True. But… were your friends related? Here, we have people who not only bear the names, but are cited – in multiple places – in relationship to one another and to our Savior, through their parents Mary and Clopas!
In the same way, I notice the Scriptures refer to James, James the less, James the brother of the Lord, even James the son of Alpheus, and cannot help but think that James was a popular name at the time (likewise, Simon, Joseph and Judas (or Jude) were also used of more than 1 person within Scripture).
Yes… but they weren’t all pointed out as both adelphoi of Jesus and sons of the Virgin Mary’s sister.
You’re making a claim that Scripture doesn’t support. Again, where in Scripture are these sons of Mary, the wife of Clopas identified as the “brothers of Jesus”?
In the passage you cite as ‘proof’ of your claim. 😉
Furthermore, has the church ever “infallibly” defined these 2 as brothers of Jesus
Red herring. It’s not the case that the authoritative teachings of the Church are all infallibly defined. The lack of an “infallible definition” does not render a Church teaching unreliable.
All the church has “infallibly” stated about the matter is that the brothers and sisters of Jesus are NOTchildren of Joseph and Mary (again, this is based on the tradition made dogma, not the Scriptures).
You realize, don’t you, that “dogma” means “defined in Scripture”, don’t you? 😉
I would make the same argument against Jerome I made here. Did Jerome address any of the points I raised? I’ll look it up myself and see.
Please do. And remember – Wesrock provided the citation to the document you’re planning on looking up. 👍
Regardless, I maintain my belief that Joseph and Mary did, in fact, engage in normal, marital relations resulting in 4 more sons and 2 or more daughters.
So… if Scripture contradicts you, and the Church Christ founded believed in Mary’s virginity up until the time of the Reformation (and beyond!), and the “dogma” of Mary’s non-virginity was only accepted by Christians following the reformation… then your belief is a “tradition of men”…! :sad_yes:
 
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