Defend against graven images

[Fr_of_Jazz]

In the old testament it says we are not to make graven images, or bow down to them. How do catholics justify making there images of Jesus? I also see some protestants with images of jesus

Regarding Ex 20, perhaps we need a context alert. Verse 3 immediately preceding 20:4-5 is “You shall not have other gods besides me.” An idol was the presence of that god in pagan religious practice. Creating a idol was worshipping a god that did not exist or a demon.

In addition, those who rule out the use of images seem to be taking the command not to make idols more rigorously than the OT itself which in places commands the making of statues and the religious use of images.

Ex 25:18–20 – Two gold statues of angels were to be made to fit over the propitiatory of the ark. [Something in the heavens above.]

1 K 8:6ff – Two gold statues of angels were made to fit over the propitiatory of the ark in the temple [Something in the heavens above.]

1 Chr 28:18–19 ditto

1 K 6:29-35 - cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers carved on the side wall of the temple [Something in the heavens above and earth below.]

2 Chr 3:7 – ditto

Ezekiel 41:17–18 – describes carved images in the idealized temple he saw in a vision. [Things in the heavens above and on the earth below.]

Num 21:8–9 – the bronze serpent - [Something on the earth below.]

Idols are of persons or things that were not real: an image is of something real.

Anything with a body can be represented in art. To represent Jesus in art is to affirm the Incarnation.

Given that an idol (an image of a false/nonexistent god) is prohibited, what does that say about Jesus’ divinity if an image of Him is prohibited?

Given that an image of a pure spirit can’t be produced, what does it say about Jesus’ humanity if He can’t be represented in art?

Since we have bodies, the senses have a role in worship. The physical body of man participates as much in worship as does his soul.

 

[mikekle]

A simple example would be, if you were to look in your house, I am sure there are pictures of your family, parents, grandparents… etc. The pictures symbolize people you love, respect and look up to, yet they are not the real person. The same goes for statues and images at church. We do not worship the statue, but see it is as a symbol for who they represent.

well, the same could be said about those who worshiped the golden calf, they werent actually worshiping the statue, they were worshiping the ‘god’ that the statue represented, same can be said for the greeks and others who worshiped Zeus and the other ‘gods’, of course they had statues of them, but the statues were just representing the actual gods, so they did not worship the statue itself.

In fact, I cant think of any group that actually worships a statue, most have statues and other graven images, but all of them represent their particular gods, so the CC would be no different in this regard.

 

[JRKH]

well, the same could be said about those who worshiped the golden calf, they werent actually worshiping the statue, they were worshiping the ‘god’ that the statue represented, same can be said for the greeks and others who worshiped Zeus and the other ‘gods’, of course they had statues of them, but the statues were just representing the actual gods, so they did not worship the statue itself.

In fact, I cant think of any group that actually worships a statue, most have statues and other graven images, but all of them represent their particular gods, so the CC would be no different in this regard.

Actually, you you bring up a valid point as regards to the Greeks, the language used in Exodus does not support your position with regards to the Israelites.
Note in Exodus 32. Note that in verse 1 it says"

When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron, and said to him, "Up, make us gods, who shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him." - (Exodus 32:1)

And then in verse 4 we see this:

And (Aaron) received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”

They do not ask for representations of gods - they say “make us gods”. Something very different from a representation of a god…

As to the matter of the Greeks…I wonder - was the problem there one of having statues or having “other gods before me”?

Peace
James

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Actually, you you bring up a valid point as regards to the Greeks, the language used in Exodus does not support your position with regards to the Israelites.
Note in Exodus 32. Note that in verse 1 it says"

When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron, and said to him, "Up, make us gods, who shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him." - (Exodus 32:1)

And then in verse 4 we see this:

And (Aaron) received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”

They do not ask for representations of gods - they say “make us gods”. Something very different from a representation of a god…

As to the matter of the Greeks…I wonder - was the problem there one of having statues or having “other gods before me”?

Peace
James