Defend traditional marriage... against what?

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I think you misunderstood the gyst of this thread. The OP wants to go to full-scale war with someone on facebook over the defense of traditional marriage and wants us to provide extra information that hasn’t already been thrown at this skeptic in question.
I certainly do not wish to go to full-scale war over this. I simply want to defend my own beliefs and values with correct information. Too many of my liberal friends get away with pro-gay, pro-Culture of Death postings that I let by without any comment. I just wanted to speak up for myself.
 
No-fault divorce has done more to detroy traditional marriage than gay marriage will do. Moreover, in practice, most heterosexuals do not embrace traditional marriage. That’s probably why when Catholc couples seek annullments usually have their annullments granted. I mean the numbers are grossly large. Marriage is meant to last till death do us part. If Catholics are divorcing at the rate of secular people and 90% of their divorces are getting annulled, that means that in about half of the Catholic weddings taking place, no one is actually giving matrimonial consent to marry.

Or you can be cynical speculate that the American marriage tribunals are corrupt, and that valid marriages are getting annulled. Marriage tribunals are not covered by the doctrine of infallibility after all.

Anyway, the reason why homosexual marriage is getting accepted nearly universally is because heterosexuals have been seeing the bearing of children as optional for a long time now. Moreover most couples live together prior to marriage and see the wedding as a celebration of the success of their relationship, not the marking of a new commitment. Marriage to them is ultimately about gaining civil benefits and making the status of your relationship public. If you read books about how to write your own marriage vows, a lot of the examples given do not even speak of permenence. A good book on the subject is “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar” It really shows how American courtship has been pretty much destroyed and how marriage is following behind it.

I’m sorry but gay marriage in my opinion is a petty detail, a mere side effect of a much larger problem. The problem is that in putting gay marriage into civil law, you are redefining marriage not on a cultural level, but on a government level. Its like this. A long time ago someone added rat poison to home made spegetti sause. Now for some reason this enhenced the flavor and people kept denying that this secret ingredient was causing illness and was killing some people. When people didn’t have rat poison, they used other types of poison. However for some odd reason people were certain that there was something wrong with using dog poison. Now maybe its because “Who would even want to poison a dog anyway? There is something disordered with that action.” But everyone else is like “Rat poison, ant killer, raid, dog poison. What’s the difference.” So people start rallying around the people who want to use dog poison. Now a group of people are insisting that the recipe books include the option of dog poison to show people “Look stop attacking the people who like the taste of dog poison.” Then the conservatives are getting all upset that dog poison even exists and telling the recipe books “Please, please just add to your book the secret incredient is a poison that does not include the name of a cute furry animal.”

Everyone is missing the big picture. But its like chesterton said. "The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”
This, so very much: people keep railing about how “marriage is being destroyed”. but I think the heterosexual couples undermined it a whole lot longer ago, when they started cheating on each other, bringing extra partners into the marriage, ditching each other for no good reason, abusing each other, or treating each other as a mere means to have kids or for economic security. I think the whole gay marriage thing is a farce and the sequel to the farce that straight couples made of marriage from the moment Adam and Eve started playing the blame game in front of God. Remember the parable about taking the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of your brother’s eye? Straight couple sometimes seem to have a whole telephone pole in there.
 
I come from a family of broken marriages and relationships. The divorce rate among active Catholics is 23%. It’s 41% for non-active Catholics (brewright.blogspot.com/2006/11/divorce-rates-by-religious-affiliation.html). My grandmother divorced my grandfather because he was physically abusive, a drunk and a womanizer. My mother saved both of us by getting out of an abusive and violent relationship when I was very young (4 years old). That relationship included seeing my mom - who was just 5 feet tall and about 120 lbs - slapped and hit like a rag doll by a husband who was 6 feet tall and over 200 lbs and a gun in the home. She packed up our things one morning after he had slapped and thrown her small frame around again (yes, I was witness to this) and that night we were in Puerto Rico headed for my grandfather’s home. It’s important to note that in situations like these no-contest divorces do have its purpose.

Christians – and we Roman Catholics in particular - have a lot of work to do when teaching about marriage. We live in a society that truly does NOT understand that marriage is holy. For many in our society marriage is nothing more than a civil contract to be broken when things become inconvenient. It is not taken seriously. We do a poor job making sure that the people seeking to be married are truly mature as people and as Christians.

We need to do better.
 
I am debating with a person on Facebook after posting a link to the USCCB’s website about defending marriage. This person wants to know, how is traditional marriage threatened by legalization of same-sex marriage? I quoted liberally from the FAQ for him, but he was unsatisfied with these answers, and concludes that “defend marriage” is merely a shibboleth, or jargon, used by people in the movement. I even gave him the specific example of adoption agencies being forced to close, thus threatening the ability of married couples to add to their families, but of course, he was not satisfied with this answer either.

What would you say? Can you go beyond the FAQ?
My advice is don’t get sidetracked by a decoy question about “gay marriage”. What is wrong comes way before this issue. Gay is not an accurate descriptor for engaging in perverted sexual activity. God says this activity is a horrible sin, punishable by eternal damnation. No amount of rubberstamping by a civil ruling can make this legitimate. It’s right there with freedom of choice to kill our unborn babies for the sake of our convenience. Civil rulings have changed nothing on this issue and will do nothing for the perversion that some are clamoring to “legitimize”. the question being posed is only a smokescreen.
 
Many people make the argument that allowing homosexual marriage does not affect any else’s marriage at all. But in fact, it does. If marriage can be anything, it is really reduced to nothing. The sad results will be borne out in societal and civilizational decline. But by then it will be much too late to say ‘I told you so.’

The attack on marriage is already far advanced, having begun with the promotion of contraception, and continued with no fault divorce, the sexualization of children, the promotion of sexual promiscuity, and legalization of abortion, the promotion of homosexual unions. It’s unlikely that our culture will return to its senses, but one can always hope.
Exactly.That women who was unmoved by argument is a boiled frog.😦
 
I come from a family of broken marriages and relationships. The divorce rate among active Catholics is 23%. It’s 41% for non-active Catholics (brewright.blogspot.com/2006/11/divorce-rates-by-religious-affiliation.html). My grandmother divorced my grandfather because he was physically abusive, a drunk and a womanizer. My mother saved both of us by getting out of an abusive and violent relationship when I was very young (4 years old). That relationship included seeing my mom - who was just 5 feet tall and about 120 lbs - slapped and hit like a rag doll by a husband who was 6 feet tall and over 200 lbs and a gun in the home. She packed up our things one morning after he had slapped and thrown her small frame around again (yes, I was witness to this) and that night we were in Puerto Rico headed for my grandfather’s home. It’s important to note that in situations like these no-contest divorces do have its purpose.

Christians – and we Roman Catholics in particular - have a lot of work to do when teaching about marriage. We live in a society that truly does NOT understand that marriage is holy. For many in our society marriage is nothing more than a civil contract to be broken when things become inconvenient. It is not taken seriously. We do a poor job making sure that the people seeking to be married are truly mature as people and as Christians.

We need to do better.
It does not help that in Protestant theology, which formed the moral basis of American law, that marriage is not a sacrament but a contract. Which is why divorce is so common in the South, which is a relatively religious region. The formal prohibition on divorce was but a social convention. But the shame of divorce went away decades ago.
 
This, so very much: people keep railing about how “marriage is being destroyed”. but I think the heterosexual couples undermined it a whole lot longer ago, when they started cheating on each other, bringing extra partners into the marriage, ditching each other for no good reason, abusing each other, or treating each other as a mere means to have kids or for economic security. I think the whole gay marriage thing is a farce and the sequel to the farce that straight couples made of marriage from the moment Adam and Eve started playing the blame game in front of God. Remember the parable about taking the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of your brother’s eye? Straight couple sometimes seem to have a whole telephone pole in there.
Oh, course, but “gay marriage” is the reductio ad absurdum." of the sexual revolution. It usurps the rights that society has given to couples primarily for the purpose of sustaining an environment for raising kids. Society frowned on sex out side of marriage, because of the danger that the children of a liason were placed at risk of bastardy. When that frown changed to a smile, we see things like what happens in the black community, where boys are allowed to grow up without fathers, and to become almost feral in their habits. Homosexuals cannot reproduce, but if they can marry and adopt children, they can create the equivalent.
 
No-fault divorce has done more to detroy traditional marriage than gay marriage will do. Moreover, in practice, most heterosexuals do not embrace traditional marriage. That’s probably why when Catholc couples seek annullments usually have their annullments granted. I mean the numbers are grossly large. Marriage is meant to last till death do us part. If Catholics are divorcing at the rate of secular people and 90% of their divorces are getting annulled, that means that in about half of the Catholic weddings taking place, no one is actually giving matrimonial consent to marry.

Everyone is missing the big picture. But its like chesterton said. "The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”
I agree with a lot that you say. In the Gospels, only divorce was mentioned by Jesus as an irredeemable sin. He never mentioned homosexuality, polygamy or other sins. In the Bible, what is left out is almost as important as what is in it. So if people were really worried about the family, they would be pushing for laws that prevented divorced people from remarrying, because Jesus himself said that meant they were adulterers.
I like the Chesterton quote, I have not heard it before.
 
An article favoring incestuous marriage among adults:

michigandaily.com/opinion/viewpoint-keep-it-family
Peace,
Ed
This article should scare the **** out of people because in a very sick perverted way its incredibly logical. With the current laws on abortion and contraception this line of reasoning is very likely to succeed if gay marriage succeeds. All of this stuff stems from the fact that somewhere along the line we forgot that marriage at its core was about procreation. We don’t legally recognize emotions between people. You don’t have to go out and get a “friends license” to be friends with someone and we don’t need the state to recognize that two people love each other. That is not what a marriage license is about.
 
We don’t legally recognize emotions between people. You don’t have to go out and get a “friends license” to be friends with someone and we don’t need the state to recognize that two people love each other. That is not what a marriage license is about.
👍
 
I agree with twoangels,
I’m sorry but gay marriage in my opinion is a petty detail, a mere side effect of a much larger problem.
Isn’t it possible the devil is just sending us off on this side road so evil can continue to grow on the main road? Is it not our society’s morals and values that are really the problem?
 
Because it overthrows the purpose of marriage altogether. Marriage and procreation are two sides of the same coin. So called same-sex marriage requires we get rid of the coin and establish a new currency!
Precisely. Marriage was essentially a state license for sex and procreation. Such rationale does not apply to homosexuals.

But, the present society has already decoupled sex, procreation and marriage from each other. The result is that marriage is viewed more as an economic partnership, than a license for procreation. And there is no good reason why a pair of homosexuals should be denied the right to form an economic partnership.
 
I agree with twoangels,

Isn’t it possible the devil is just sending us off on this side road so evil can continue to grow on the main road? Is it not our society’s morals and values that are really the problem?

Where do society’s morals and values come from? What are they based on? I think the current media share part of the blame for getting people not to think about right or wrong but just to show apparently happy people in immoral situations, such as characters on TV having “just sex” along the lines of ‘it’s like going to the bathroom.’

South Park has been around for 15 years. According to Entertainment Weekly, that fact ought to be celebrated. Like the episode where a little girl tells her teacher in class, “Stay away from my man, *itch.”?

Peace,
Ed
 
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It was so very, very difficult to raise children in the 80’s and 90’s for that very reason; I cannot even imagine how difficult it must be right now. Not just TV but, music, sports and film stars, magazines, music itself, video games, etc. Our children were always SO angry with us that they couldn’t see the movies, TV shows and videos their friends watched and they always tried ‘sneak listening’ to forbidden music. They fully understand now and, 3 of 4 are grateful however; it seemed as though we were trying to keep them from being inundated with life itself rather than advertising and pop culture. :eek:
 
Precisely. Marriage was essentially a state license for sex and procreation. Such rationale does not apply to homosexuals.

But, the present society has already decoupled sex, procreation and marriage from each other. The result is that marriage is viewed more as an economic partnership, than a license for procreation. And there is no good reason why a pair of homosexuals should be denied the right to form an economic partnership.
But there is no criminal penalty for sex or procreation outside of marriage. Why do you need a license for something if you are already allowed to do it?
 
But there is no criminal penalty for sex or procreation outside of marriage. Why do you need a license for something if you are already allowed to do it?
In my opinion the government marriage license is the just the way the government organizes people at this point. It also serves as a way in which to try and motivate couples to stay together and raise kids in two parent households, which is proven to be better for kids. I don’t think any couples are not going to get a divorce though just because they want to keep filling their taxes together… The government either needs to step up and make marriage mean something again, or it needs to get out the business all together.

Also side question for anyone out there who may know. Is there any procedure a non-married couple can go through to allow one of them to put their stay-at-home spouse under their health care plan? I assume there must be some provision considering how many unmarried heterosexual couples we have living together that don’t care to actually get married.
 
Not that I know of Nate.

Why wait until the government makes the institution of marriage “mean something”? WE need to make marriage “mean something”. WE need to stop waiting for the government to lead us around by the nose. Look where that waiting and following has gotten us ~ look on the TV, the movie screen, the video games, magazines, public school rules, etc.
 
I am debating with a person on Facebook after posting a link to the USCCB’s website about defending marriage. This person wants to know, how is traditional marriage threatened by legalization of same-sex marriage? I quoted liberally from the FAQ for him, but he was unsatisfied with these answers, and concludes that “defend marriage” is merely a shibboleth, or jargon, used by people in the movement. I even gave him the specific example of adoption agencies being forced to close, thus threatening the ability of married couples to add to their families, but of course, he was not satisfied with this answer either.

What would you say? Can you go beyond the FAQ?
I haven’t read the FAQ but here’s my argument.

Law is educative. People tend to believe that if it is lawful then it must be true, and it must be good.

When we we legislate the permissibility of evil, then we say evil is good. The devil wins with his lie.

This has happened with abortion and euthanasia and will be followed by every conceivable evil once it becomes part of our law.
 
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