Defend traditional marriage... against what?

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Those are all great points, and I agree with you, but we’re getting off track here, because my question is: how does legalizing gay marriage threaten traditional marriage? Does it erode the relationship of heterosexuals who are already married? Does it prevent heterosexuals from getting married in the future? What is the damage to this type of marriage by introducing another “type” of “marriage”?

I haven’t seen an answer, so I tend to agree with my interlocutor that “defending traditional marriage” is just a shibboleth for those in the cause.
 
The Marketing of Evil:

amazon.com/Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption-Disguised/dp/1581824599

Right now, around the world, people are involved in all sorts of immoral sexual relationships. To those who say the government should get out of the marriage business, why should the government grant cohabitating unmarried couples anything? It seems that the government is the bad guy until the government is asked to grant ar actually grants some group something. Then it’s the good guy.

There is Truth out there. And to paraphrase the current Pope: “Marriage is not just between any two people who are willing.” And to quote a line from the Hippies: “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.”

Love is more than an emotion and it’s more that just sex. It’s about commitment and stability, between each spouse and for the benefit of their children.

Peace,
Ed
 
Right now, around the world, people are involved in all sorts of immoral sexual relationships. To those who say the government should get out of the marriage business, why should the government grant cohabitating unmarried couples anything?
I don’t know that cohabiting people ask for any special government handouts. The issue arises when they decide to make some commitments to each other, such as agreeing to support each other, make medical decisions for each other, share possessions, etc. Marriage represents a convenient “package deal” that makes allowances for couples willing to take on these responsibilities towards each other. The potential of the couple to have kids is irrelevant to the government when granting these protections. It has separate allowances for people who have or adopt children.

Traditionally, religious pressures and stigmas were sufficient to prevent non-traditional couples from seeking these protections. The shortcomings of government dispensing and recognizing this otherwise religious arrangement were therefore swept under the rug. Now, since non-traditional groups are large enough and popular enough to ignore the outcry from the religious, the government is really faced with two options. One is to offer marriage protections to all domestic partnerships, the other is to cease recognizing religious marriage entirely and instead have everyone apply for a separate and entirely secular contract which differs from the current governmental recognition of marriage in name only.

As far as I know, there is no religious prohibition against a man sharing his income with another man, two women agreeing to make medical decisions for one another. Therefore, I can’t imagine there being much religious objection to the government offering these arrangements to any couple, even as a marriage-like package deal. The religious objections primarily concern sexual intercourse, something which the government has very little authority to regulate. Since the government can’t and won’t make a proclamation about the morality of any consensual sexual intercourse, it therefore cannot restrict its policies on that basis.
 
Not that I know of Nate.

Why wait until the government makes the institution of marriage “mean something”? WE need to make marriage “mean something”. WE need to stop waiting for the government to lead us around by the nose. Look where that waiting and following has gotten us ~ look on the TV, the movie screen, the video games, magazines, public school rules, etc.
Marriage means a great deal whether the government wants it or not, but that is a separate point. The problem is the government reflects the views of the people it represents and right now our government is sending out a very wishy washy message and is hurting marriage. It either needs to get out of the way and stop doing damage, or get on board and make clear policies that show how valuable marriage is to society.
 
I don’t know that cohabiting people ask for any special government handouts. The issue arises when they decide to make some commitments to each other, such as agreeing to support each other, make medical decisions for each other, share possessions, etc. Marriage represents a convenient “package deal” that makes allowances for couples willing to take on these responsibilities towards each other. The potential of the couple to have kids is irrelevant to the government when granting these protections. It has separate allowances for people who have or adopt children.

Traditionally, religious pressures and stigmas were sufficient to prevent non-traditional couples from seeking these protections. The shortcomings of government dispensing and recognizing this otherwise religious arrangement were therefore swept under the rug. Now, since non-traditional groups are large enough and popular enough to ignore the outcry from the religious, the government is really faced with two options. One is to offer marriage protections to all domestic partnerships, the other is to cease recognizing religious marriage entirely and instead have everyone apply for a separate and entirely secular contract which differs from the current governmental recognition of marriage in name only.

As far as I know, there is no religious prohibition against a man sharing his income with another man, two women agreeing to make medical decisions for one another. Therefore, I can’t imagine there being much religious objection to the government offering these arrangements to any couple, even as a marriage-like package deal. The religious objections primarily concern sexual intercourse, something which the government has very little authority to regulate. Since the government can’t and won’t make a proclamation about the morality of any consensual sexual intercourse, it therefore cannot restrict its policies on that basis.
Haha but that is the problem. You have secularists trying to make use of laws/policies that reflect the Christian ideals that were mainstream when they were put in place. Cohabitation is a completely foreign idea in conservative Christianity which has reigned in America for a vast majority of its history. To try and apply a system that was put in place based on those Christian ideals, to cohabiting couples and homosexual relationships is ridiculous.

Thus my point that government either needs to get out of marriage, or it needs to stand behind the Christian values it is based on with respect to marriage. It should stand behind them not because they reflect Christianity though, but because they reflect policies that best serve and build society.
 
Excellent point. The key word there being ‘BUILD’ society. But, in more ways than one. Not just in numbers but, in taking a moral stand as well. When it became politically INcorrect to mention or ‘inject’ religion into any political conversation, persons and/or groups who support lifestyles and/or behaviors that go against Christian beliefs pounced on that opportunity to inject immoral practices into mainstream society, willy-nilly. And, I don’t just mean homosexuality. I mean what we see on TV, billboards, etc. as well. I see, once again, it’s okay to smoke on the big screen AND on TV. Yes, the government needs to step up to the plate and undo some of the damage its hands-off attitudes has caused however; it needs to go further than to make a statement about the legality of cohabiting homosexual partners. It needs to acknowledge that which we all know ~ sex is the problem and we all need to stand together as one to fight evil.
 
it [government] needs to go further than to make a statement about the legality of cohabiting homosexual partners. It needs to acknowledge that which we all know ~ sex is the problem and we all need to stand together as one to fight evil.
The religious objections primarily concern sexual intercourse, something which the government has very little authority to regulate. Since the government can’t and won’t make a proclamation about the morality of any consensual sexual intercourse, it therefore cannot restrict its policies on that basis.
 
I do not think anyone here is referring to what goes on in private. I am referring to what goes on in public and that is regulated by the government.
 
Originally Posted by TheTrueCentrist View Post
The religious objections primarily concern sexual intercourse, something which the government has very little authority to regulate. Since the government can’t and won’t make a proclamation about the morality of any consensual sexual intercourse, it therefore cannot restrict its policies on that basis.
There are religious objections to cohabitation between members of the opposite sex, especially if there is an obvious attraction between the two.
Since the government can’t and won’t make a proclamation about the morality of any consensual sexual intercourse
Yet they are attempting to do exactly that with homosexual behaviors. Marriage implies sexual behavior and thus the government supporting this would give a stamp of approval to these actions. It would be doing exactly what you say it can’t do above by essentially making a proclamation that homosexual acts are fine.

If your going to argue that marriage does not imply sexual behavior then what is the difference between two guys who are just roommates and a gay couple? Should the two roommates get “married”? They are sharing a place so why not right if marriage has nothing to do with being sexually attracted to each other.

In an attempt to make marriage available to all and to conform to every situation you end up making it meaningless.
 
If your going to argue that marriage does not imply sexual behavior then what is the difference between two guys who are just roommates and a gay couple? Should the two roommates get “married”? They are sharing a place so why not right if marriage has nothing to do with being sexually attracted to each other.
I don’t know that cohabiting people ask for any special government handouts. The issue arises when they decide to make some commitments to each other, such as agreeing to support each other, make medical decisions for each other, share possessions, etc. Marriage represents a convenient “package deal” that makes allowances for couples willing to take on these responsibilities towards each other. The potential of the couple to have kids is irrelevant to the government when granting these protections. It has separate allowances for people who have or adopt children.
 
Excellent point. The key word there being ‘BUILD’ society. But, in more ways than one. Not just in numbers but, in taking a moral stand as well. When it became politically INcorrect to mention or ‘inject’ religion into any political conversation, persons and/or groups who support lifestyles and/or behaviors that go against Christian beliefs pounced on that opportunity to inject immoral practices into mainstream society, willy-nilly. And, I don’t just mean homosexuality. I mean what we see on TV, billboards, etc. as well. I see, once again, it’s okay to smoke on the big screen AND on TV. Yes, the government needs to step up to the plate and undo some of the damage its hands-off attitudes has caused however; it needs to go further than to make a statement about the legality of cohabiting homosexual partners. It needs to acknowledge that which we all know ~ sex is the problem and we all need to stand together as one to fight evil.
Sex is not the problem. Relationships are. If traditional marriage is not properly understood, it is individuals and couples, not the government, who should get the blame.

It used to be called “alternative lifestyles.” I can go to a lawyer right now and will my estate to my next door neighbor, or get a roommate and share rent, or do any “alternative” I want. Why is it that the government needs to legalize anything about two people living together except marriage?

The Russian parliament has recently passed a law restricting abortions:

google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hnLGP0vwatgg9NMG0gIefSbxDxWg

Family and children are the building blocks of any society. Understanding the correct purpose of sex in a marriage relationship should be job one. The media is presenting way too many messages, verbal and visual, that sex is meaningless. It’s just something you do, or not, because you feel like it. Love has been removed from the equation.

Peace,
Ed
 
The Russian parliament has recently passed a law restricting abortions:

google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hnLGP0vwatgg9NMG0gIefSbxDxWg

Family and children are the building blocks of any society. Understanding the correct purpose of sex in a marriage relationship should be job one. The media is presenting way too many messages, verbal and visual, that sex is meaningless. It’s just something you do, or not, because you feel like it. Love has been removed from the equation.

Peace,
Ed
Haha! Did you read the last line of the article?
Russia’s population, now at 143 million, has shrunk by 5.7 million since the 1991 fall of the Soviet Union, a plunge blamed on rampant alcoholism, bad diets and lack of exercise.
Right…nothing to do with 1-6 million abortions per year that occur depending on which statistics you believe, and the fact that Russia has a replacement rate of 1.4 compared to the 2.1 they need :rolleyes:
The law passed Friday limits abortions to 12 weeks of pregnancy, except for women who say they can’t afford a child, who may have an abortion up to 22 weeks.
How many abortions do they really think this will stop? If all they have to do is say they can’t afford a child that won’t stop any. If they had to provide documents with their current financial situation that might, but I highly doubt this will do anything even assuming they actually enforce it.
 
Haha! Did you read the last line of the article?

Right…nothing to do with 1-6 million abortions per year that occur depending on which statistics you believe, and the fact that Russia has a replacement rate of 1.4 compared to the 2.1 they need :rolleyes:

How many abortions do they really think this will stop? If all they have to do is say they can’t afford a child that won’t stop any. If they had to provide documents with their current financial situation that might, but I highly doubt this will do anything even assuming they actually enforce it.
Lets not get sidetracked, we were discussing traditional marriage, not abortion.
 
Most people believe that anti-cohabitation laws would be unconstitutional by the same reasoning as Lawrence vs Texas.

At least one has been struck down recently: usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-07-21-cohabitation_x.htm
Who said we make cohabitation or homosexual relationships illegal? The question is whether we recognize them within our government, especially at a level equal to marriage.

The more I think about it the more I think government should just get the heck out of the whole situation. The only way I would support the government continuing to recognize marriages is if it works to promote one marriage for life. That means treating the 2nd and 3rd marriage a person has differently than the first. This would not be a means of punishing people who got remarried, but rather a way to promote and reward staying with the same person for life which has many benefits for society and the people involved. Only then could you point to a clear difference between married couples and cohabiting couples. Right now with no-fault divorce the only difference government wise is one is a little messier when the two decide to split.

If we are going to offer tax breaks to people who by hybrid cars because that is good for society/environment, how much more of a tax break should we offer to people who are married for life and provide a stable environment to raise kids? Marriage for life is also good for the environment because you then don’t have divorced couples splitting up into two homes and using twice the resources. In my opinion divorce is the number one issue environmentalists should be fighting against because of how many resources it wastes.

pnas.org/content/104/51/20629.abstract
Here is one study that hits on some of the environmental effects of divorce.
 
Honestly, this is some of the same tricky territory that I am dealing with, myself. As a Catholic, my faith tells me that I ought to be evangelizing and advocating public policies that sync up with Church teachings. But as a pluralist American, I recognize that not everyone agrees with those teachings, particularly as they relate to social policies, the big ones being same sex marriage and abortion. I’ve come to the colclusion that it is not the business of the Church how a same sex couple is allowed to file their federal income tax returns, or how their medical powers of attorney work. Tell me, if your neighbors are gay, and they are given recognition of their union by the secular state, would you love your wife or husband less? Would you love your children less, or teach them differently? Would you love God less? or stop going to Mass?

Not to mention, as a student of political science, it is dangerous territory for religious freedom to advocate a policy using their religion as the basis for the policy. Say, for example, that a Catholic-based policy is passed. You’ve opened the door to ANY religious policy being passed, as long as it has enough votes in a legislative body or ballot referendum, threatening religious freedom: laws may be passed that ban Catholic Mass as being contrary to the traditions of the great many Protestants in this country. Or perhaps, people may make a claim that Sharia law, for example, can and ought to replace the authority of our justice system. It is dangerous precedent to set to use our faith as Catholics to set the direction of public policies that effect non-Catholics.

Long story short: I don’t believe that a civil recognition of a same sex couple takes away from a heterosexual marriage, nor do I believe that it weakens your ability to teach your children about the morality that you subscribe to. Put another way, in the same way that a gov’t may choose to recognize same-sex unions, we are all free to not apply for the same-sex marriage liscence.
 
Honestly, this is some of the same tricky territory that I am dealing with, myself. As a Catholic, my faith tells me that I ought to be evangelizing and advocating public policies that sync up with Church teachings. But as a pluralist American, I recognize that not everyone agrees with those teachings, particularly as they relate to social policies, the big ones being same sex marriage and abortion. I’ve come to the colclusion that it is not the business of the Church how a same sex couple is allowed to file their federal income tax returns, or how their medical powers of attorney work. Tell me, if your neighbors are gay, and they are given recognition of their union by the secular state, would you love your wife or husband less? Would you love your children less, or teach them differently? Would you love God less? or stop going to Mass?

Not to mention, as a student of political science, it is dangerous territory for religious freedom to advocate a policy using their religion as the basis for the policy. Say, for example, that a Catholic-based policy is passed. You’ve opened the door to ANY religious policy being passed, as long as it has enough votes in a legislative body or ballot referendum, threatening religious freedom: laws may be passed that ban Catholic Mass as being contrary to the traditions of the great many Protestants in this country. Or perhaps, people may make a claim that Sharia law, for example, can and ought to replace the authority of our justice system. It is dangerous precedent to set to use our faith as Catholics to set the direction of public policies that effect non-Catholics.

Long story short: I don’t believe that a civil recognition of a same sex couple takes away from a heterosexual marriage, nor do I believe that it weakens your ability to teach your children about the morality that you subscribe to. Put another way, in the same way that a gov’t may choose to recognize same-sex unions, we are all free to not apply for the same-sex marriage liscence.
This is the point though. Traditional marriage has been eroded so much we can’t see how it is different from homosexual marriage anymore. There is really not much left to prevent except tipping all the way over the precipice. As other posters mentioned the fight against homosexual marriage is not the beginning of the fight to defend marriage. Its the fight that occurs when we are on our last leg.
 
This is the point though. Traditional marriage has been eroded so much we can’t see how it is different from homosexual marriage anymore. There is really not much left to prevent except tipping all the way over the precipice. As other posters mentioned the fight against homosexual marriage is not the beginning of the fight to defend marriage. Its the fight that occurs when we are on our last leg.
The issue is not that we can’t see the difference between traditional and gay marriage, it is that we have structured our government such that it is not allowed to.
 
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