Defenders Of The Church, Take Your Stand

[churchcamefirst]

"Put on the armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and the powers, against the world leaders of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness on high. Therefore take up the armor of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day and stand, therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of justice, and having your feet shod with the readiness of the Gospel of peace, in all things taking up the shield of faith, with which you may be able to quench all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. And take unto you the helmet of Salvation and the sword of the Spirit, that is, the Word of God."----Ephesians 6:11-17

We Catholics are under a continuous bombardment of negativism from many sources. How many times have you heard from the pulpit a Catholic priest deliberately attacking a non-Catholic church? I do not recall one single case in which this has happened. Yet others take great pleasure in attacking our Catholic church, and they will do it from the pulpit.
It amazes me how some non-Catholic sects seem to spend a significant percentage of their time in attacking our church, instead of preaching to their followers of “love thy neighbor” as taught by the Word of God in holy Scripture.
It is the duty of every Catholic to learn the faith and defend it. DO NOT BE AFRAID to speak out when your church is being attacked by anyone.
When you defend the church, you are defending it’s founder Jesus Christ. He will remember that when you meet him face to face someday.
He will also remember those who attacked his church which is his Body, with him being the Head and Savior of it. (Eph. 1:22-23, 5:23, Col 1:18).
Holy Scripture has promised that you will certainly receive your reward:
"My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one to convert him: HE MUST KNOW THAT HE WHO CAUSETH A SINNER TO BE CONVERTED FROM THE ERROR OF HIS WAY SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH AND SHALL COVER A MULTITUDE OF SINS" (James 5:19-20).

 

[cathopologist]

They attack, because they are afraid and have no peace.
John 14:27

 

[Peter_J]

How many times have you heard from the pulpit a Catholic priest deliberately attacking a non-Catholic church? I do not recall one single case in which this has happened. Yet others take great pleasure in attacking our Catholic church, and they will do it from the pulpit.

The classification of religious bodies into “those who attack other religious bodies from the pulpit” and “those who don’t attack other religious bodies from the pulpit” is a helpful classification; but I would recommend not pushing it too far, lest it turn into a form of legalism.

 

[TriuneUnity]

The classification of religious bodies into “those who attack other religious bodies from the pulpit” and “those who don’t attack other religious bodies from the pulpit” is a helpful classification; but I would recommend not pushing it too far, lest it turn into a form of legalism.

or to silence the church from pointing out theological or doctrinal error because it’s not “nice.”

 

[Peter_J]

or to silence the church from pointing out theological or doctrinal error because it’s not “nice.”

I think we all know that application of terms like “attacking” and “defending” will vary greatly from person to person.

In particular, what you might call “pointing out theological error”, we (Catholics) might call “attacking the one true Church”. (And, conversely, what we might call “pointing out theological error” or “standing up for the Church”, you might call “attacking the truth”. And so on and so forth.)

 

[TriuneUnity]

I think we all know that application of terms like “attacking” and “defending” will vary greatly from person to person.

In particular, what you might call “pointing out theological error”, we (Catholics) might call “attacking the one true Church”. (And, conversely, what we might call “pointing out theological error” or “standing up for the Church”, you might call “attacking the truth”. And so on and so forth.)

That is true. Which is why subjectivity must be minimized in such situations by having every faithful Christian adhere to the Lutheran Confessions

 

[Peter_J]

That is true. Which is why subjectivity must be minimized in such situations by having every faithful Christian adhere to the Lutheran Confessions

Well misery loves company, I guess.

 

[Peter_J]

Well misery loves company, I guess.

Please note that I wasn’t speaking from a pulpit when I said that.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Well misery loves company, I guess.

:getholy:

I think you’re confusing us with the Calvinists

 

[raumzeitmc2]

It amazes me how some non-Catholic sects seem to spend a significant percentage of their time in attacking our church, instead of preaching to their followers of “love thy neighbor” as taught by the Word of God in holy Scripture.

I don’t think it’s anything to be amazed or wondered at, considering the ferocity with which the reformers hated and persecuted the Church, and the way in which they masterfully and incessantly inculcated this same hatred and persecutory spirit into the hearts and minds of their followers.

Erasmus, who experienced them first hand, wrote:

I saw them come forth from their sermons with fierce looks and threatening countenances,

They were like men

that just come from hearing bloody invectives and seditious speeches.

And,

these evangelical people always ready to rise up in arms, and as equally good at fighting as disputing.

&c Ep. 1, xix, 113, also De Libero Arbitrio.

books.google.com/books?id=rcgPAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA157&dq=erasmus+%22bloody+invectives%22&lr=&as_brr=0#PPA157,M1

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_libero_arbitrio_diatribe_sive_collatio

And Calvin, the self-appointed dictator, who never ceased to persecute those who disagreed with him, wrote regarding one individual who dared oppose him,

Knowing partly the man he was, I could have wished that he were rotting in some ditch ; and his arrival gave me as much pleasure as the piercing my heart with a poniard would have done. But never could I have deemed him to be such a monster of all impiety and contempt of God, as he has proved himself in this. And I assure you, Madame, that had he not so soon escaped, I should, by way of discharging my duty, have done my best to bring him to the stake.

• Letter to Madame de Cany, January 1552.

Letters of John Calvin, Jules Bonnet, volume 2, p. 338.
archive.org/details/lettersofjohncal02calv

Of Michael Servetus, whom Calvin (in cooperation with the Geneva Protestants) burned at the stake, wrote:

But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.

To William Farel, February 13, 1546, Bonnet, vol. 2:19
books.google.com/books?id=m22h412TAaIC&pg=PA19&dq=%22I+shall+never+permit+him+to+depart+alive,%22&lr=&sig=ACfU3U3iCw2vKAeL1TQ3iJt8l-g5284WyA#PPA19,M1

Calvin, I should point out, did try to have Servetus spared the fire, but to no avail.

After Servetus was executed, Philip Melanchthon later referred to it as (April 10, 1557):

Pium et memorabile ad omnem posteritatem exemplum,

that is,

a pious and memorable example for posterity.

Melanchthon’s Opera, in the Corpus Reformatorum, vol. 9, p. 133, No. 6226, Epistolarum Lib. XIII, 1557.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Reformatorum

The German Catholic historian Ludwig Pastor, commenting on Luther’s advice to the German nobles, has this to say:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Pastor

In [Luther’s] postscript he in so many words called for a religious war and the waging of a bloody persecution against the Catholic Church. “If,” he says, “the madness of the Romanists be continued, it seems to me that the only hope of salvation left is that Emperor, kings, and princes take up arms and attack this pest of the earth, and thus bring matters to a conclusion, no longer by words but by steel …. If a thief is punished by a halter, a murderer by the sword, and a heretic by fire, why should not we, with all our weapons, attack these teachers of corruption, these Popes, Cardinals, and all the rabble of the Roman Sodom, and wash our hands in their blood.”

Ludwig von Pastor, History of the popes, vol, 7, p. 393.
books.google.com/books?id=BqnLIpBkOk8C&pg=PA393&dq=luther+%22wash+our+hands+in+their+blood%22&lr=#PPA393,M1
Sylvester Prierias
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_Mazzolini

These disturbing words of Luther’s are, in the Latin:

Si fures furca, si latrones gladio, si haereticos igne plectimus, Cur non magis hos magistros perditionis, hos Cardinales, hos Papas et totam istam Romanae Sodomae colluviem, quae Ecclesiam dei sine fine corrumpit, omnibus armis impetimus et manus nostras in sanguine istorum lavamus.

In the Erlanger edition:

D. Martini Lutheri, Opera Latina, Varii Argumenti (Opp. Lat. var. arg.), 1865, Henricus Schmidt, Frankfort & Erlanger, Carl Heyder & H. Zimmer, volume 2, p. 107.
books.google.com/books?id=ASARAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA107&dq=%22si+latrones+gladio,+si+haereticos%22&lr=

In the Weimar ed.

D. Martin Luthers Werke; kritische Gesamtausgabe, 1888, Joachim Karl Friedrich (1835-1904) et al, vol. 6, p. 347.
books.google.com/books?id=8cxReQ_UHsgC&pg=PA347&dq=%22si+latrones+gladio,+si+haereticos%22&lr=

But why should they be expected to act otherwise? After all, violent, inflammatory, and persecutory language was constantly on the lips of their reformers.

Henry Hallam rightly said of them:

Persecution is the deadly original sin of the reformed churches; that which cools every honest man’s zeal for their cause in proportion as his reading becomes more extensive.

The Constitutional History of England, 1862, vol. 1, p. 105.
books.google.com/books?id=lDc0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105&dq=%22+persecution++is+the+deadly+original+sin+%22&lr=

And even some 300 years after the beginning of the reformation, the fierceness of the Calvinist was apparently still unabated. Listen to what Thomas Jefferson had to say about them.

The Presbyterian clergy are the loudest, the most intolerant of all sects; the most tyrannical and ambitious, ready at the word of the law-giver, if such a word could now be obtained, to put their torch to the pile, and to rekindle in this virgin hemisphere the flame in which their oracle, Calvin, consumed the poor Servetus, because he could not subscribe to the proposition of Calvin, that magistrates have a right to exterminate all heretics to the Calvinistic creed! They pant to re-establish by law that holy inquisition which they can now only infuse into public opinion

• to William Short, April 13, 1820.

The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, 1907, Washington, The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association of the United States, vol. 15, p. 246. books.google.com/books?id=rlc8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA246&dq=jefferson+calvin++%22most+intolerant+of+all++sects+%22&lr=&as_brr=0#PPA246,M1

And there are countless other examples that could be brought forth. But these must suffice for now.

So is it really any wonder therefore, that, once infected with the disease of hate, these poor souls should continue to transmit this same spirit of hate and persecution to their descendants, albeit perhaps in a somewhat less virulent form?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Very good post. I learned a lot from it.

 

[RobHom]

or to silence the church from pointing out theological or doctrinal error because it’s not “nice.”

My friend, you and I both know that the principal issue is not decent discussion of theology or doctrine.

I do believe it was with regards to hate-mongering ant-Catholic rhetoric…which does go on. You have already expressed your feelings with regards to “Fundamentalists”…and interestingly enough…they are the “vanguard” of the wrongdoing. Perhaps you would be interested in reading this article. Its quite interesting: **Catholic-Bashing: America’s Last Acceptable Prejudice **beliefnet.com/story/128/story_12800_1.html

Frankly, in my life of 58 years, I have never heard anyone in the Catholic Clergy, in word or print, launch an attack on another religion. It is not our way. Nor are we “brought up” to be that way. However, it seems that many persons of other religions or denomination get a significant amount of religious education under the category of: “Anti-everybody who does not agree to us”. And it seems to be an on-going theme that requires the expenditure of vast amounts of their time “railing and caterwalling” against the rotten papist devil worshipping vermin.

That is a fact that cannot be denied. Other denominations suffer the same types of attacks as well. But, not because I am Catholic, and I certainly do not wear the “victims cloak”, Catholics do take a lot of grief from other religions…or at least people and clergy within them.

Before a non-Catholic deigns it proper to lob a rock at me, I would suggest that you google these words “Persecution against Catholics”, and look at the thousands of responses. Now google the words “Persecution by Catholics” and look at the responses. Yes, a number of them will appear, but the responses are not what you would expect…they are the same ones as the first search produced. Weird, huh? Websites wholly dedicated to the bashing and destruction of the Catholic Church are in the thousands… How many Catholic websites are dedicated to the bashing and destruction of non-Catholic Churches?

I’ve said it before… If the hate and disdain of another religion or its adherents is the basis for your church’s dogma and your minister’s sermons…then you are not a Christian.

I am mindful of the “bumper-sticker” WWJD, and I do think I have a pretty good idea what He would do…

I must sign off now…and head for home quickly. Tropical Storm Fay is headed for my home, and I have to get there and prepare for the storm… Think good thoughts for us all, we are still somewhat recovering from Charlie…and if you are of a mind to, say a prayer for us as well! All prayers gladly accepted!!

 

[Peter_J]

So is it really any wonder therefore, that, once infected with the disease of hate, these poor souls should continue to transmit this same spirit of hate and persecution to their descendants, albeit perhaps in a somewhat less virulent form?

Well, you would hope that before starting a new inquisition, people would take a good hard look at the inquisitions that have already been held. (BTW, Jefferson is a complicated figure whom I don’t claim to fully understand; but I do agree with his dislike of inquisitions.)

 

[TriuneUnity]

My friend, you and I both know that the principal issue is not decent discussion of theology or doctrine.

I do believe it was with regards to hate-mongering ant-Catholic rhetoric…which does go on. You have already expressed your feelings with regards to “Fundamentalists”…and interestingly enough…they are the “vanguard” of the wrongdoing. Perhaps you would be interested in reading this article. Its quite interesting: **Catholic-Bashing: America’s Last Acceptable Prejudice **beliefnet.com/story/128/story_12800_1.html

Thanks for the article!

For us as modern-day Protestants who are the theological descendants of the Reformation, while Rome still teaches what we consider error, in America, our main opposition to true doctrine is not Roman Catholicism; it’s neo-evangelicalism. Especially of the Arminian variety. Frankly, though it sounds harsh… a vast swath of American churches are in open and unrepentant heresy.

 

[churchcamefirst]

Triuneunity, let me ask you a question. What exactly are you protesting? Since P-r-o-t-e-s-t-ant means to protest against the Catholic church, what is it you are protesting?
How is it that you can take the sides of men who changed the Word of God as to their liking, and not stick to the very Words Jesus Christ wrote in the original bible?
How come you trust these men Luther, Calvin, etc…so much?
What proofs do you have that the Catholic church is not the church founded by Jesus Christ? Only these men? These heretics?

 

[mark_a]

"Put on the armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and the powers, against the world leaders of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness on high. Therefore take up the armor of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day and stand, therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of justice, and having your feet shod with the readiness of the Gospel of peace, in all things taking up the shield of faith, with which you may be able to quench all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. And take unto you the helmet of Salvation and the sword of the Spirit, that is, the Word of God."----Ephesians 6:11-17

We Catholics are under a continuous bombardment of negativism from many sources. How many times have you heard from the pulpit a Catholic priest deliberately attacking a non-Catholic church? I do not recall one single case in which this has happened. Yet others take great pleasure in attacking our Catholic church, and they will do it from the pulpit.
It amazes me how some non-Catholic sects seem to spend a significant percentage of their time in attacking our church, instead of preaching to their followers of “love thy neighbor” as taught by the Word of God in holy Scripture.
It is the duty of every Catholic to learn the faith and defend it. DO NOT BE AFRAID to speak out when your church is being attacked by anyone.
When you defend the church, you are defending it’s founder Jesus Christ. He will remember that when you meet him face to face someday.
He will also remember those who attacked his church which is his Body, with him being the Head and Savior of it. (Eph. 1:22-23, 5:23, Col 1:18).
Holy Scripture has promised that you will certainly receive your reward:
"My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one to convert him: HE MUST KNOW THAT HE WHO CAUSETH A SINNER TO BE CONVERTED FROM THE ERROR OF HIS WAY SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH AND SHALL COVER A MULTITUDE OF SINS" (James 5:19-20).

Except for once, any mention of Protestantism by priests I’ve heard has always been in a positive light.

Here’s one that our priest and his Baptist minister friend agree on:

The difference between Baptists and Catholics is that Baptists tythe but don’t go to church. Catholics go to church but don’t tythe.

The only non-positive comment I’ve ever heard was:

Double-predestination is the most cruel doctrine ever developed.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Triuneunity, let me ask you a question. What exactly are you protesting? Since P-r-o-t-e-s-t-ant means to protest against the Catholic church, what is it you are protesting?

Actually, it doesn’t. The name came from the Lutheran princes in 1529 who protested the decision of the Holy Roman Emperor at the 2nd Diet of Speyer to revoke religious freedoms. It has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church per se. Since I live 500 years after that event, in that sense, I am not a Protestant.

How is it that you can take the sides of men who changed the Word of God as to their liking, and not stick to the very Words Jesus Christ wrote in the original bible?

What was changed? Obviously, I don’t accept your baiting presupposition.

How come you trust these men Luther, Calvin, etc…so much? What proofs do you have that the Catholic church is not the church founded by Jesus Christ? Only these men? These heretics?

Blah blah blah, heretics, blah blah. It’s interesting in a thread saying how Catholics never attack other faiths, Catholics attack other faiths as heretical. Ah the wonders of internet forums.

 

[Peter_J]

And also, TriuneUnity, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

 

[TriuneUnity]

And also, TriuneUnity, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

 

[Peter_J]

How is it that you can take the sides of men who changed the Word of God as to their liking, and not stick to the very Words Jesus Christ wrote in the original bible?

And also, TriuneUnity, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Hmm … You don’t seem to cooperative in answering our questions today. I fear we may have to start treating you as a hostile witness.