Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-sex “Marriage”

[RyanML]

…but declaring June as ‘National LGBT month’ does…just like during the ‘African American’ month we have to celebrate Martin Luther King, next year do I have to look forward to celebrating people with a different sex life?? lol…thats something worth celebrating??? I mean, wether you agree with it or not, we need to take a month out and celebrate someones sex life??? and how are they going to handle that in the schools?? by reading materials, learning about homosexual things…

Personally I think it’s silly to have a “National LGBT month”, and I’m gay! I just don’t see the point and I don’t think it will effect greater awareness concerning equal rights for LGBT persons.

But you seem to make it all about sex and it’s not. Of course sex is a part of it, just as it is with heterosexual people, but it’s also very much about intimacy, friendship, and companionship.

It’s a shame that all most people see of the gay community is the pride parades with drag queens, rainbow flags, and grossly immodest attire. I suppose if I didn’t know any better, I would have a very low opinion of straight people based on the types I know who go to the clubs and sleep around and who have no moral convictions. But I do know better, so I don’t go around making generalizations about straight people. To be honest with you, all of the gay friends that I have are in long term, monogamous relationships. They get up every morning and go to work just like everybody else. Most of them aren’t even concerned with the whole “gay marriage” issue. They just want legal protections and benefits for each other should the need arise.

It’s just frustrating sometimes on these threads because gay people are painted with a broad brush as grossly immoral and out to destroy the family and the Church. The reality that I live with everyday is very different.

 

[buffalo]

Sorry this took so long, but I really wanted to put some thought into it.

I feel that it’s really about the language used when the topic comes up. More straight people are convicted of pedophilia and rape then gay people. Shouldn’t you all be suspect because of that? Straight people are alcoholics and drug users, shouldn’t all straight people be suspect because of those them? Straight teachers have been caught molesting their students, down here in FL we’ve had quite a rash of them, shouldn’t we worry about all straight people teaching our children because of the ones who have done that? Straight people get sexually transmitted diseases all the time, so shouldn’t all straight people be considered evil because of that?

Of course not-we don’t lump all straight people into a category because some have done sinful things-but we don’t think anything of it when it happens to gay people.

Look at the reaction to the PDA in the park! Would that same level of disgust be applied to a straight couple? C’mon, be honest. You’d look once, make a comment of how inappropriate it is and go on with your life. If it’s a gay couple, it’s fodder for discussion of how evil it is for ages afterwards.

I’d love to see more Catholics speak out against acts of violence against gays, about treating gay people as human beings with EQUAL worth and dignity. I’d love to see less discussion about how miserable gay people’s lives are, because frankly, they’re not any more miserable than the lives of straight people. I’ve been gay my whole life, have lots of gay friends and we’re all pretty happy.

I’m not asking for the church to change it’s views on gay sex, that’s not going to happen. What I’d like to see is less emphasis on the sex act and more emphasis on humanity.

Thanks for the post.

What I think is going on is the disposition of the sinner.

Let’s look at a couple of examples.

Straight person - molests - remorse or no remorse? Vow to to do it again or vow to do it again?

Catholic teaching is what your orientation toward God is. Are we journeying towards Him, not moving at all or just plain I don’t give a darn about what God thinks?

So in all the cases the answer could be one of the three. The evil is in the third - I know better than God (pride) and I am going to do it anyway no matter what He thinks or anyone else thinks.

For us Confession moves us to the first - journeying towards God. From that we get graces to help us not commit our sinful act again. Do we fail? - yes miserably. The Church is a hospital for sinners, everyone it it is a sinner, so we hold no special advantage. By attending Mass, receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, and Confession we receive graces that help us live a more perfect life.

Catholics do speak out about violence toward homosexuals. We do not believe in violence toward anyone.

I quote the Catechism:

Chastity and homosexuality
[2357](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2357.htm’) Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
[2359](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2359.htm’) Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

The Bishops have spoken on this, wrote letters and teach the faithful this. However, since man is prone to sin many of us fail to live up to it.

We learn that all persons are made in the image of God and have dignity. (Many Catholics currently are not properly Catechized or were sleeping during the class) Many Catholics actually argue for homosexuality.

As far as the act goes - no such luck. The act is what is intrinsically evil. This will never go away. The humanity part? Should we embrace the act? We have Catholic apostolate’s that help free one from the act. The Catholic Church has no issue with chaste SSA.

 

[gearhead]

Of course not-we don’t lump all straight people into a category because some have done sinful things-but we don’t think anything of it when it happens to gay people.

I’ve thought about this a lot, and I think it mainly comes out of two main factors:

First: when we divide people into different categories, we tend to focus on the differences and not the commonalities. When people think of a same-sex couple, they focus on the thing that distinguishes them from a “normal” couple: the same-sex part. They tend not to notice all the mundane details that are the same. The same-sex couple next door may spend the majority of their time doing normal things: working a full-time job, cutting the lawn, worrying about the economy, watching TV, etc., but all that’s ignored, because it’s not the thing that puts them in a different category from me.

Second: the further away we are from something, the more homogenous we tend to imagine it. I remember an incident at a family gathering a few years back when same-sex marriage was more in public debate. My sister-in-law asked “do you know what gay people do?” and went into some rumour about bathhouses that she had heard. Whether or not the rumour was based in fact, it’s wrong to apply it to all gay people; it’d be just as valid (i.e. not valid at all) to say “do you know what straight people do?” and go on about the strip club with a small motel attached that I had just driven by on the way to my sister-in-law’s house. Even though the activities at that strip club/brothel are entirely heterosexual and nothing but, we recognize that they’re not reflective of all heterosexual people. Unfortunately, we tend not to give the same courtesy to groups of people who we perceive as farther away from us.

 

[buffalo]

In the Catholic church children are the primary reason for marriage. It’s already been pretty well covered here that civil law provides no such requirement.

That is why civil unions are the law in some state. Same sex unions can never rise to the
level of marriage - (one man and one woman). It will always be deficient.

 

[Charlotte408]

Sorry this took so long, but I really wanted to put some thought into it.

I feel that it’s really about the language used when the topic comes up. More straight people are convicted of pedophilia and rape then gay people. Shouldn’t you all be suspect because of that? Straight people are alcoholics and drug users, shouldn’t all straight people be suspect because of those them? Straight teachers have been caught molesting their students, down here in FL we’ve had quite a rash of them, shouldn’t we worry about all straight people teaching our children because of the ones who have done that? Straight people get sexually transmitted diseases all the time, so shouldn’t all straight people be considered evil because of that?

No, we dont consider all straight people evil because of that, and we dont consider all gay people evil because of that. We dont even consider all gay people evil. We only consider those who comit homosexual acts in the state of mortal sin, and that sin is evil, not the person. I only brought up the fact that homosexuals do these things, because you were quick to point out that straights do, but never acknowledged that homosexuals do as well.

Of course not-we don’t lump all straight people into a category because some have done sinful things-but we don’t think anything of it when it happens to gay people.

No, YOU dont think anything of it when gay people do these things, apparently…if I point out that homosexual people are just as likely to commit these crimes as a straight person, I’m ‘LUMPING’ them together…

Look at the reaction to the PDA in the park! Would that same level of disgust be applied to a straight couple? C’mon, be honest. You’d look once, make a comment of how inappropriate it is and go on with your life. If it’s a gay couple, it’s fodder for discussion of how evil it is for ages afterwards.

I never said it was EVIL, I said it was inappropriate. and went on with my life. if you recall i didnt walk over and say anything to them, i did exactly what you suggested i would have done if they were straight. in fact i didnt even COMMENT on it, i THOUGHT it, and went on with my life…but the fact that I acknowleged it was even inappropriate, which it would have been just as inappropriate if they were single, to you seems to mean that I have a problem with gay people themselves…no…i have a problem with PDA in front of kids…

I’d love to see more Catholics speak out against acts of violence against gays, about treating gay people as human beings with EQUAL worth and dignity. I’d love to see less discussion about how miserable gay people’s lives are, because frankly, they’re not any more miserable than the lives of straight people. I’ve been gay my whole life, have lots of gay friends and we’re all pretty happy.

I have no idea how miserable a gay persons life might be. And from the ones I know, theyre pretty happy too…even when they come over to my house for dinner…you CAN be friends with gay people, and not believe in same sex marriage. Just because I’m not out advocating, whatever it is you think I should be advocating, does not mean that I’m automatically AGAINST them…Its like, if your not FOR gay marriage, or somehow being active enough for their cause, then, well … you must be against it…miss me with that …women get raped…I dont volunteer at rape centers…does this mean I’m any less sympathetic to their pain?? If a gay dude gets beat up and I see it on the news, at home, I’m like, man thats messed up…but just because I dont pick up a picket sign and protest gay bashing on the street corner doesnt mean that I agree with gay bashing…

I’m not asking for the church to change it’s views on gay sex, that’s not going to happen. What I’d like to see is less emphasis on the sex act and more emphasis on humanity.

You know, out of the idk how many times I’ve been to mass…I think homosexuality has only come up once or twice…I listen to catholic radio…and … I think the subject has come up…maybe 4 times?? there are soo many things in the bible…theres a lot…homosexuality is just one thing…I dont think that ALL our emphasis is on it, it may be possible that because you are gay, you may feel like its directed at that, but really its not.

 

[buffalo]

Fine - don’t encourage it. But there are more ways of not encouraging something than active opposition.

Everyone chooses their weapon.

I do not want our laws to encourage it and I vote.

 

[buffalo]

They just want legal protections and benefits for each other should the need arise.

It

All you need to do is go see a lawyer or get some software. You can draw up civil documents anytime.

 

[gearhead]

All you need to do is go see a lawyer or get some software. You can draw up civil documents anytime.

Really.

One of my friends is currently living apart from her spouse. She’s an American natural-born citizen, living in the US. Her wife is in the UK, because she hasn’t yet been approved for permanent residency in the US. You see, their marriage isn’t recognized by the government, so my friend can’t sponsor her wife in the normal way that a citizen can sponsor their foreign spouse for immigration purposes. Instead, her wife has to wait through the green card lottery as an unsponsored applicant, which can take a decade or more.

Could you tell me which lawyer she should see or what civil documents she should draw up to remedy this situation?

 

[RyanML]

All you need to do is go see a lawyer or get some software. You can draw up civil documents anytime.

Correct. There is no need to redefine marriage for gay couples to have similar benefits and protections.

 

[gearhead]

Correct. There is no need to redefine marriage for gay couples to have similar benefits and protections.

While this statement isn’t actually, true, it really just amounts to this: “we don’t mind same-sex couples having the rights of marriage; we just want to tax them first, payable to a gaggle of lawyers.”

Edit: Ryan, where did your message go?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

You know, out of the idk how many times I’ve been to mass…I think homosexuality has only come up once or twice…I listen to catholic radio…and … I think the subject has come up…maybe 4 times?? there are soo many things in the bible…theres a lot…homosexuality is just one thing…I dont think that ALL our emphasis is on it, it may be possible that because you are gay, you may feel like its directed at that, but really its not.

True, when you are a member of a specific group you do hear things about you more often than non-members do. I tend to pay more attention to statements about Catholics than I do other religions too. I’ll admit to a bias on this subject as well.

Also, perhaps it’s because I live in a state that had a gay marriage amendment on the ballot this year. No lie, we got homosexuality EVERY week. Then of course, there I am in my Birkenstock sandals and the family sitting next to me moves over just a little bit…don’t wanna catch those gay cooties.

I’m sure a lot of it depends on where you live as well. When I was living outside of NY, I didn’t hear as much about gay people as I do here in the South. The only time it became an issue was when NJ legalized civil unions for gay people. (btw-not the same thing as marriage-my friends found that out when they tried getting benefits)

 

[RyanML]

While this statement isn’t actually, true, it really just amounts to this: “we don’t mind same-sex couples having the rights of marriage; we just want to tax them first, payable to a gaggle of lawyers.”

Edit: Ryan, where did your message go?

In an attempt to edit, I actually deleted, lol.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

While this statement isn’t actually, true, it really just amounts to this: "we don’t mind same-sex couples having the rights of marriage; we just want to tax them first, payable to a gaggle of lawyers."

Edit: Ryan, where did your message go?

again, let’s make those nasty gay people pay EXTRA for what straight people get for free…

 

[Charlotte408]

True, when you are a member of a specific group you do hear things about you more often than non-members do. I tend to pay more attention to statements about Catholics than I do other religions too. I’ll admit to a bias on this subject as well.

Also, perhaps it’s because I live in a state that had a gay marriage amendment on the ballot this year. No lie, we got homosexuality EVERY week. Then of course, there I am in my Birkenstock sandals and the family sitting next to me moves over just a little bit…don’t wanna catch those gay cooties.

I’m sure a lot of it depends on where you live as well. When I was living outside of NY, I didn’t hear as much about gay people as I do here in the South. The only time it became an issue was when NJ legalized civil unions for gay people. (btw-not the same thing as marriage-my friends found that out when they tried getting benefits)

I TOTALLY agree, and really never knew just HOW different things can be in different places…like, me…im in california…right down the road from san francisco in san jose…one of the most diverse places…and we had prop 8 on the ballot earlier this year too, so its been kinda crazy…

but like, me, i grew up where theres blacks, whites, chinos…mexicans…gays…drags…you name it! the first club i ever went to was this s&m club my girl used to go to…LOL…i’ll NEVER forget that…but i took it like a champ…partied all nite…im a ‘returning’ catholic, who really, never really was catholic in the first place…so…you know, i have no problems with gays themselves and have always seen them as people, just like everyone else…i stil do, but i just think that marriage is a sort of ‘norm’ … for kids…for society…theres just biologically a correct way…

anyways thats why i trip out when i hear people try to make it sound like gays are ‘victims’…i know HELLA gays…and theres nothing victimish about them…their just normal people…but i guess i have to keep in mind that in some places…idk…ohio or iowa or something it might be a different story, and thats why some might think that everyones against them…

 

[buffalo]

again, let’s make those nasty gay people pay EXTRA for what straight people get for free…

I don’t get a will for free.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I don’t get a will for free.

but you do get these in most states:

  Assumption of Spouse’s Pension
  Automatic Inheritance
  Automatic Housing Lease Transfer
  Bereavement Leave
  Burial Determination
  Child Custody
  Crime Victim’s Recovery Benefits
  Divorce Protections
  Domestic Violence Protection
  Exemption from Property Tax on Partner’s Death
  Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse
  Insurance Breaks
  Joint Adoption and Foster Care
  Joint Bankruptcy
  Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records)
  Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
  Certain Property Rights
  Reduced Rate Memberships
  Sick Leave to Care for Partner
  Visitation of Partner’s Children
  Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison
  Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits

and these from the federal government

Access to Military Stores
Assumption of Spouse’s Pension
Bereavement Leave
Immigration
Insurance Breaks
Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Social Security Survivor Benefits
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Tax Breaks
Veteran’s Discounts
Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison

 

[gearhead]

I don’t get a will for free.

You get the presumption that you want to leave everything to your spouse for free.

 

[buffalo]

Really.

One of my friends is currently living apart from her spouse. She’s an American natural-born citizen, living in the US. Her wife is in the UK, because she hasn’t yet been approved for permanent residency in the US. You see, their marriage isn’t recognized by the government, so my friend can’t sponsor her wife in the normal way that a citizen can sponsor their foreign spouse for immigration purposes. Instead, her wife has to wait through the green card lottery as an unsponsored applicant, which can take a decade or more.

Could you tell me which lawyer she should see or what civil documents she should draw up to remedy this situation?

It can take a decade for a sibling too.

But at this time it is illegal. Perhaps your friend should consider moving to the UK.

 

[buffalo]

You get the presumption that you want to leave everything to your spouse for free.

Through probate, which is why people spend the money to make a will.

Which one of these things are not covered by a civil union?

 

[gearhead]

Through probate, which is why people spend the money to make a will.

Whereas a same-sex couple doesn’t even get that much. In their case, without a will, the estate would probably go to the deceased’s parent or sibling if they die childless.

Edit: doesn’t a will have to go through probate as well? Fortunately, I haven’t had to be an executor of a will yet, but I remember when my grandmother died, my parents had to go through probate with her will. Is this a Canada/US legal difference?

Which one of these things are not covered by a civil union?

Depends on the civil union. Some give rights close to marriage, some are far from it. And some states have even enacted amendments to their state constitutions to prohibit civil unions for same-sex couples as well as marriage.

But off the top of my head, at least in the US, civil unions don’t provide any of the rights or benefits given to marriages at the federal level. And marriage provides recognition abroad that civil unions don’t. For example, Israel will recognize a foreign same-sex marriage but not a foreign civil union.