Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-sex “Marriage”

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On an island with 100 people, 97 people want to do something and 3 disagree. What are you going to do?
Depends. Why can’t the 97 people do the thing they want and the 3 not do it?
I have watched the gradual, methodical poisoning of sociey in the West for the last 40 years. Everything has become sexualized. Prostitute was relabeled porn star. Stripper was relabeled exotic dancer.
Prostitutes and strippers have always been sexualized. That’s kinda the point. 😉
Right now, around the world, people are doing whatever they want behind closed doors. It is another thing entirely to ask to legalize something and to demand universal acceptance. Plans are being made for what happens Beyond Gay Marriage. It is interesting that one of the signatories for this document is the same Gloria Steinem who said, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.”
Who said this in the context of women’s liberation, not same-sex marriage.
And what was shown at this year’s Cannes Film Festival? A movie called Zoo about bestiality.
No, it wasn’t.

Here’s the listing of films for the 2009 Cannes Film Festival: festival-cannes.com/en/archives/2009/allSelections.html

There’s no movie called “Zoo” on it. Not in 2008 either.
Yep, the Polys (polygamists) and Zoos (sex with animals) are standing in line, waiting for everyone to say: “Hey. What’s the big deal?” Is MANBLA (Man Boy Love Association) far behind?
I don’t know, but I’m worried about the Catholics: they already think that the Eucharist is literally the body of Christ - can real cannibalism be far off?

My slippery slope makes about as much sense as yours.

BTW - I touched on bestiality already in this thread. It’s legal in Florida and remains legally mainly because of voter apathy. If you really cared about the end of your fallacious slippery slope, you would’ve taken action on this issue already.
 
To Sailor Kenshin,

Amen. No man is perfect, no not one. When we fall, we get back up. We continue walking toward Christ, not away from Him.

Peace,
Ed
Precisely.

And those who think that giving in to their mortal sins will make them happy are wrong. I would consider myself the world’s worst Catholic, friend, parent, if I encouraged people to embrace sinfulness.

Gearhead, you seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I am here to debate. I am here to state the truth of Holy Mother Church. You have the free will to reject it, but as Fadda Corapi says, ‘I ain’t goin’ to Hell for any one of you.’

Try reading some of the letters of Saint Paul. You’ll discover that your claim of ‘rights’ is as old as Satan himself.
 
Fine with me. Annulment splits spouses and lets them remarry. Call it what you want, for whatever reasons you want. Justify it as you choose. The bottom line is it accomplishes the same thing as divorce.

The people spoke, and the leadership followed. That’s how it works in organizations. Birth control will probably follow the same path as interest/debt and divorce/annulment. Things change.
I have not been around for a while. I just wanted to clarify that according to the apologists here, the Church does not consider annulments unless the couple is already divorce or if they are living in a country that they cannot divorce there is clear indication that separation in mind and body has already happened.

I have some very short Q and A’s involving annulments below. It should let you see how the two are distinct and how one is allowed by the Church and the other is not. Marriage is not a merely civil bond.

Here is an example of the differences between a divorce and an annulment.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=360330&highlight=annulment

Here is the question, what happens when an annulment is denied before remarriage. The annulment once again is not breaking up a relationship, doing “what a divorce does” as you claim. A divorce is a civil breaking of ties. An annulment is a declaration and understanding that ties were never freely able to be bonded in the first place.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=344526&highlight=annulment

Here is a situation where two people who seem to be in love but have divorced and do not have annulments for their previous marriages. They are in adulterous relationship. The objective view supersedes the subjective understanding of the situation.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=337509&highlight=annulment

Here is another situation. A couple of civilly married but the husband is not given an annulment even after twenty years of pursuing this option.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=362366&highlight=annulment
 
I have not been around for a while. I just wanted to clarify that according to the apologists here, the Church does not consider annulments unless the couple is already divorce or if they are living in a country that they cannot divorce there is clear indication that separation in mind and body has already happened.

I have some very short Q and A’s involving annulments below. It should let you see how the two are distinct and how one is allowed by the Church and the other is not. Marriage is not a merely civil bond.

Here is an example of the differences between a divorce and an annulment.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=360330&highlight=annulment

Here is the question, what happens when an annulment is denied before remarriage. The annulment once again is not breaking up a relationship, doing “what a divorce does” as you claim. A divorce is a civil breaking of ties. An annulment is a declaration and understanding that ties were never freely able to be bonded in the first place.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=344526&highlight=annulment

Here is a situation where two people who seem to be in love but have divorced and do not have annulments for their previous marriages. They are in adulterous relationship. The objective view supersedes the subjective understanding of the situation.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=337509&highlight=annulment

Here is another situation. A couple of civilly married but the husband is not given an annulment even after twenty years of pursuing this option.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=362366&highlight=annulment
Those are all fine distinctions for anyone who really cares. Some do, but most just want to clear an obstacle from their path. They get what they want and move on with their lives.

Not too long ago, the Church soundly condemned remarriage after divorce. Now they don’t. Most folks aren’t canon lawyers. They care no more for the intricacies of canon law than they do for the intricacies of the civil law. They get the divorce. The Church stamps its form in triplicate. They remarry, and off they go.

The Church has devised a rational explanation for what it does. So it can say nothing has changed. OK. The Catholic gets to remarry. Everyone is happy. That’s exactly how organizations work. Everyone is covered.

Remember, lending money at interest was once condemned. Now the Vatican Bank is a bond dealer. And nothing has changed. Again, everyone is covered and everyone is happy. It’s not easy.
 
Those are all fine distinctions for anyone who really cares. Some do, but most just want to clear an obstacle from their path. They get what they want and move on with their lives.

Not too long ago, the Church soundly condemned remarriage after divorce. Now they don’t. Most folks aren’t canon lawyers. They care no more for the intricacies of canon law than they do for the intricacies of the civil law. They get the divorce. The Church stamps its form in triplicate. They remarry, and off they go.

The Church has devised a rational explanation for what it does. So it can say nothing has changed. OK. The Catholic gets to remarry. Everyone is happy. That’s exactly how organizations work. Everyone is covered.

Remember, lending money at interest was once condemned. Now the Vatican Bank is a bond dealer. And nothing has changed. Again, everyone is covered and everyone is happy. It’s not easy.
An annulment is a Decree of Nullity. That means that in the eyes of God a sacramental marriage never took place.
 
An annulment is a Decree of Nullity. That means that in the eyes of God a sacramental marriage never took place.
Fine. Bottom line is the guy gets to remarry, the people are getting what they want, and the Church has cover. Everybody wins.
 
That is because the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is pretty good, eh?🙂
The people demanded divorce and the Holy Spirit delivered? That does sound pretty good. Is that what happened with interest? Everybody has cover. Everybody wins.
 
The people demanded divorce and the Holy Spirit delivered? That does sound pretty good. Is that what happened with interest? Everybody has cover. Everybody wins.
And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.
 
Those are all fine distinctions for anyone who really cares. Some do, but most just want to clear an obstacle from their path. They get what they want and move on with their lives.

Not too long ago, the Church soundly condemned remarriage after divorce. Now they don’t. Most folks aren’t canon lawyers. They care no more for the intricacies of canon law than they do for the intricacies of the civil law. They get the divorce. The Church stamps its form in triplicate. They remarry, and off they go.

The Church has devised a rational explanation for what it does. So it can say nothing has changed. OK. The Catholic gets to remarry. Everyone is happy. That’s exactly how organizations work. Everyone is covered.

Remember, lending money at interest was once condemned. Now the Vatican Bank is a bond dealer. And nothing has changed. Again, everyone is covered and everyone is happy. It’s not easy.
I think the reason you see this is because you choose to blind yourself. If people do not care about the higher law, then that is their fault, not the Church. The Church as far as I understand did not change the rules. They leaders of the Church follows the rules based on their best understanding and how it applies to people’s lives.

This does not mean the rules change. If I were to tell my three year old son not to eat crayons due to them not being food and they could be toxic to his body. And he listens. He turns into an artists as he grows up. Now on the celebration of his first gallery presentation I buy him a giant chocolate cake in the shape of a crayon. Would he not eat it because it looks like the crayon from his childhood? He may ask why if he is confused, and I will explain to him that this is not a crayon. It is a crayon shaped cake to celebrate his artistry.

There are differences in the examples you mentioned. Note that in the links I linked, there are examples of people denied annulments because their marriage was a valid one. They did not get their cake and eat it too. If you enter a marriage validly:
  1. Free to marry.
  2. Clear demonstration of intention to commit.
  3. Honor the duties and intricacies of marriage.
I think there is one more requirement, but I cannot find the exact text. It should be from the Catechism: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Valid marriage cannot be annulled. There are situations where marriages are dissolved, much like a civil divorce. You can look into those if you want.

Annulments and dissolved marriages have existed for ages as far as I can tell. So it is not re-writing rules.

The supposedly increase in annulments (I have not seen documentation of this and would not mind being enlightening) would logically be from the increase numbers of invalid marriages.

As for usury (I think this is the correct term) where we demand recompense for the lending of goods and money. This has been condemned in a particular case: the case of of it is exploitation. If I loan a friend a book that is sitting on my shelf and does nothing else, it is still and was immoral for me to charge him. If I operate a book lending service where my income comes from lending books out, I can charge a service fee. This is because the book’s intended purpose is for renting out. It is the same way as renting a home. “What about loans?” one might say. Well, if the loan’s purpose is from a bank where the money in lieu of the loan should be used for other services providing income, then it is fair to charge/pay an interest. This does not seem strange to me. Is this not always practiced and enforced this way by the Church. If anyone would not normally gain and income form a service, it is immoral for them to charge a fee in exploitation.
 
As for usury (I think this is the correct term) where we demand recompense for the lending of goods and money. This has been condemned in a particular case: the case of of it is exploitation. If I loan a friend a book that is sitting on my shelf and does nothing else, it is still and was immoral for me to charge him. If I operate a book lending service where my income comes from lending books out, I can charge a service fee. This is because the book’s intended purpose is for renting out. It is the same way as renting a home. “What about loans?” one might say. Well, if the loan’s purpose is from a bank where the money in lieu of the loan should be used for other services providing income, then it is fair to charge/pay an interest. This does not seem strange to me. Is this not always practiced and enforced this way by the Church. If anyone would not normally gain and income form a service, it is immoral for them to charge a fee in exploitation.
You make a good case for lending money at interest. However, in a 1745 encyclical Pope Benedict disagrees with you. He condemns collection of any amount beyond what was loaned out. He also interprets scripture to say this.
 
I keep hearing ppl on these forums talk about the “gay agenda”. Well, I am gay and Catholic (also a productive member of society). Would someone please fill me in on what the “gay agenda” is, and how I am a danger to “your” society, because I have no idea of either.
 
I keep hearing ppl on these forums talk about the “gay agenda”. Well, I am gay and Catholic (also a productive member of society). Would someone please fill me in on what the “gay agenda” is, and how I am a danger to “your” society, because I have no idea of either.
What people are talking about is a movement amongst people with same sex attraction who want the sexual acts that satisfy that attraction to not be considered a disordered sexual act. The agenda is to change the culture by changing the view of men having sex with men and women having sex with women in the popular mind. It’s a movement among gay people to change the popular mind about homosexual acts from being something less than sex between men and women to being equal or even holier than sex between men and women. BTW I don’t see someone as gay just because they have same sex attraction.
 
The agenda is to change the culture by changing the view of men having sex with men and women having sex with women in the popular mind.
I find it amusing that you inadvertently confessed that the masses are concerned with the private sex lives of others. What’s more pathetic: a person trying to justify their sexual preferences to others, or the fact that the person feels inclined to justify himself because the others feel that it’s their business? The irony of all this is astounding. It’s considered disordered to have sex with someone of the same gender, but it’s perfectly okay for a married person to imagine others having sex, become offended by it as though it was a personal insult, and act to prevent it? What you guys are pushing isn’t loving…it isn’t even fair. What you guys want is simply conformity. If anti-gay people would just admit that, we could all be on our way and stop pretending that this is a real debate with any real significance.
BTW I don’t see someone as gay just because they have same sex attraction.
Then you’re just contributing to the confusion. Homosexuality is a sexual preference. If you disagree, then I must ask: what’s heterosexuality? If one has to have sex before they can be labelled as a hetero-, homo-, or bisexual, would virgins be mistaken when calling themselves “straight?” If so, then I guess all virgins are asexual. LOL
 
I find it amusing that you inadvertently confessed that the masses are concerned with the private sex lives of others. What’s more pathetic: a person trying to justify their sexual preferences to others, or the fact that the person feels inclined to justify himself because the others feel that it’s their business? The irony of all this is astounding. It’s considered disordered to have sex with someone of the same gender, but it’s perfectly okay for a married person to imagine others having sex, become offended by it as though it was a personal insult, and act to prevent it? What you guys are pushing isn’t loving…it isn’t even fair. What you guys want is simply conformity. If anti-gay people would just admit that, we could all be on our way and stop pretending that this is a real debate with any real significance.
There are so many false assumptions to address in this critque. I think a carefull review of my words would help you see the bias that produced your assumptions. I didn’t inadvertantly confess anything about the masses because in my view unless the issue is spotlighted the ‘masses’ aren’t reflective and could care less how they feel about homosexuals.
Then you’re just contributing to the confusion. Homosexuality is a sexual preference. If you disagree, then I must ask: what’s heterosexuality? If one has to have sex before they can be labelled as a hetero-, homo-, or bisexual, would virgins be mistaken when calling themselves “straight?” If so, then I guess all virgins are asexual. LOL
See, you assume you already know something when you don’t. My reasoning is founded on the idea that manipulating the genitals to orgasm isn’t a behavior that can be categorized as a sexuality. It may end the search for stimulus in an environment that lacks it and therefore be a behaviour that satisfies a sexual urge but a sexuality it isn’t. Sex produces like kind. There are other forms of sexuality that accomplish this like the one you mentioned. There is no such thing as ‘homosexuality’,
 
I keep hearing ppl on these forums talk about the “gay agenda”. Well, I am gay and Catholic (also a productive member of society). Would someone please fill me in on what the “gay agenda” is, and how I am a danger to “your” society, because I have no idea of either.
http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/ha1972.htm

(Formulated in Chicago, Illinois.)

FEDERAL:
  1. Amend all federal Civil Rights Acts, other legislation and government controls to
    prohibit discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodations and public
    services. (1972 Federal-1)
  2. Issuance by the President of an executive order prohibiting the military from excluding
    for reasons of their sexual orientation, persons who of their own volition desire entrance
    into the Armed Services; and from issuing less-than-fully-honorable discharges for
    homosexuality; and the upgrading to fully honorable all such discharges previously
    issued, with retroactive benefits. (1972 Federal-2)
  3. Issuance by the President of an executive order prohibiting discrimination in the federal
    civil service because of sexual orientation, in hiring and promoting; and prohibiting
    discriminations against homosexuals in security clearances. (1972 Federal-3)
  4. Elimination of tax inequities victimizing single persons and same-sex couples. (1972
    Federal-4)
  5. Elimination of bars to the entry, immigration and naturalization of homosexual aliens.
    (1972 Federal-5)
  6. Federal encouragement and support for sex education courses, prepared and taught by
    Gay women and men, presenting homosexuality as a valid, healthy preference and
    lifestyle as a viable alternative to heterosexuality. (1972 Federal-6)
  7. Appropriate executive orders, regulations and legislation banning the compiling,
    maintenance and dissemination of information on an individual’s sexual preferences,
    behavior, and social and political activities for dossiers and data banks. (1972 Federal-7)
  8. Federal funding of aid programs of gay men’s and women’s organizations designed to
    alleviate the problems encountered by Gay women and men which are engendered by an
    oppressive sexist society. (1972 Federal-8)
  9. Immediate release of all Gay women and men now incarcerated in detention centers,
    prisons and mental institutions because of sexual offense charges relating to victimless
    crimes or sexual orientation; and that adequate compensation be made for the physical
    and mental duress encountered; and that all existing records relating to the incarceration
    be immediately expunged. (1972 Federal-9)
STATE:
  1. All federal legislation and programs enumerated in Demands 1, 6, 7, 8, and 9 above
    should be implemented at the State level where applicable. (1972 State-1)
  2. Repeal of all state laws prohibiting private sexual acts involving consenting persons;
    equalization for homosexuals and heterosexuals for the enforcement of all laws. (1972
    State-2)
  3. Repeal all state laws prohibiting solicitation for private voluntary sexual liaisons; and
    laws prohibiting prostitution, both male and female. (1972 State-3)
  4. Enactment of legislation prohibiting insurance companies and any other state-regulated
    enterprises from discriminating because of sexual orientation, in insurance and in
    bonding or any other prerequisite to employment or control of one’s personal demesne.
    (1972 State-4)
  5. Enactment of legislation so that child custody, adoption, visitation rights, foster
    parenting, and the like shall not be denied because of sexual orientation or marital status.
    (1972 State-5)
  6. Repeal of all state laws prohibiting transvestism and cross-dressing. (1972 State-6)
  7. Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent. (1972 State-7)
  8. Repeal of all legislative provisions that restrict the sex or number of persons entering into
    a marriage unit; and the extension of legal benefits to all persons who cohabit regardless
    of sex or numbers. (1972 State-8)
 
FEDERAL:
6. Federal encouragement and support for sex education courses, prepared and taught by Gay women and men, presenting homosexuality as a valid, healthy preference and
lifestyle as a viable alternative to heterosexuality. (1972 Federal-6)
:eek::eek:

3. Repeal all state laws prohibiting solicitation for private voluntary sexual liaisons; and
laws prohibiting prostitution, both male and female. (1972 State-3)
:eek:

**7. Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent. (1972 State-7):eek::eek::eek:
  1. Repeal of all legislative provisions that restrict the sex or number of persons entering into a marriage unit; and the extension of legal benefits to all persons who cohabit regardless of sex or numbers. (1972 State-8):**:eek::eek:
 
I’d still like to know what is loving, charitable, or even sane about embracing mortal sin.
 
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