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WillieWonka
Guest
Yes, that is how the law is written. It makes some parents pay more so childless marrieds can pay less.
Why give the childless marrieds a break and make the unmarried parents pay more?
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Why give the childless marrieds a break and make the unmarried parents pay more?
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1catholic
Guest
In legal terms they don’t and on that basis there is no legal basis for eradicating gay marriage. BUT, if one is to look at the history of the gay movement, of birth control, and of abortion, they will see not only connections between them but how it does hurt society. Still, these would seem to be difficult arguments in secular court b/c one has to be so careful about offending others. European culture has readily accepted the gay movement and we see a negative affect on their society. But In the sense you were talking it does not affect anything that i can think of more than a man choosing to stay single. Unless one argues that they are not then going out and serving but are closing themselves off…but that is going on limb in my opinion
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WillieWonka
Guest
What is one particular and specific negative effect on European societies from gay marriage?
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1catholic
Guest
Not including the fall of ancient rome…
Its like legalizing dangerous drugs, you condone something that hurts the ppl involved and those around them
The destruction of innocence in children/over sexualizing them
The loss of respect for marriage
…I’m making a list…one moment
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WillieWonka
Guest
Make sure the list is specific and particular. “Destruction of innocence” is concusory. It has to be supported by particulars.
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1catholic
Guest
coolness…maybe I’ll just lay out the “agenda” but i warn u that when we talk about its basic affects on society not legitimacy, b/c they are different things, that we are going into a moral discussion, not favored in secular arguments 
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WillieWonka
Guest
I just want to know the particular and specific negative effects on European societies from gay marriage. Just tell us what they are.coolness…maybe I’ll just lay out the “agenda” but i warn u that when we talk about its basic affects on society not legitimacy, b/c they are different things, that we are going into a moral discussion, not favored in secular arguments
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1catholic
Guest
First, let me say i am including Canada in this cuz they are so close to home
- a loss of religious freedoms (wow are we seeing some of the same effects as abortion) - forcing of churches to accept both marriages as sacred or stopping them from preaching their beliefs
- Sex Education (no I don’t mean a normal necessary amount) was part of the Gay movement, now you see kids getting more STD’s/Pregnant/Committing suicide/Suffering from depression/being more sexually active in general/greater violence rates…
3)The forcing of a physically harmful ideology down the throats of the citizens - Our “priest scandal” was mostly homosexual activity
- Gay marriage basically makes homosexuality legitimate, legally, not just as a personal choice, which means it has legal protection, and thus any speaking out against homosexual activities, even when done in a purely scientific manner, is considered hateful
- Thus there is a fear of protecting children from Homosexuality b/c u’ll be a bigot
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buffalo
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Since I posted it I will try to explain. When the family unit is subverted population replacement falls. Gay marriage is one factor that subverts marriage. In addition, traditional families provide the engine for economic growth.
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WillieWonka
Guest
- What church has been forced to accept gay marriage as sacred? When and where did this happen? Did the doctrines of the church change? Who forced the change in doctrine about the sacred? Has the Catholic Church been forced to accept gay marriage as sacred? Has the catechism been changed?
- How does sex education cause STDs? Exactly what part of the curriculum over and above the necessary part caused STDs? What was learned that increased STDs? And how did gay marriage cause that learning?
- Exactly what does “forcing of a physically harmful ideology down the throats of the citizens” mean? How is an individual citizen forced? How do you force an ideology down my throat? What do you do? What do I do? Excatly what action am I forced to take? How does that work? Exactly what is the harm to the citizen? How do we detect that harm?
- How did gay marriage cause Catholic priests to molest kids in countries all over the world for the past fifty years? How did gay marriage cause Catholic bishops all over the world to cover up and support those abusers? Does the Church blame all this on gay marriage?
- How is my consideration of your speech harmful to anyone. Exactly what is the harm caused you by my ideas about your ideas?
- How does one protect a child from homosexuality? How does one protect a child from heterosexuality? Are children protected from heterosexuality? Are those same protections useless against homosexuality? Exactly what does one do to protect kids?
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WillieWonka
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Can you tell us exactly how gay marriage subverts the family unit? What does it mean to subvert the family unit? How do we know it is happening? What do we look for? How do we detect it?
Have Catholic family units been subverted in Massachusetts? Exactly what do we observe in Massachusetts that tells us 1) Catholic family units have been subverted, and 2) they have been subverted by gay marriage?
Have Catholic family units been subverted by the priest/bishop sex abuse scandal? If so, how do we detect it, and how do we determine that subversion is due to the priest/bishop sex abuse scandal?
Gays have more disposable income that most marrieds with families, and they are powerful drivers of the economy. That’s why we see so many ads targeted at gays. The retailers know who spends money and what they spend it on.
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Charlotte408
Guest
Willie…
"Same-sex registered partnerships are Scandinavia’s latest contribution to Western family change – a sharp cultural separation between the ideas of marriage and parenthood. Even before the establishment of registered partnerships, many Scandinavians were starting to have their first child outside of marriage. Although the couple’s relationship was still considered experimental through the birth of the first child, most parents did marry before the birth of the second child.
The problem with this system is that unmarried parents break up at two to three times the rate of married parents. So as Scandinavians separated the ideas of marriage and parenthood, family dissolution rates rose – placing first-born children at particular risk. The growing Scandinavian separation of marriage and parenthood made it difficult to deny marriage to same-sex couples. Yet the creation of registered partnerships has only locked in and reinforced the separation between the ideas of marriage and parenthood, thereby accelerating marital decline.
Same-sex registered partnerships have contributed to Scandinavian marital decline in several ways. The controversy over registered partnerships created a divide in Norway’s Lutheran Church. The most striking example can be found in Norway’s socially liberal Nordland County, where churches fly rainbow flags. The flags signal that clergy in same-sex registered partnerships are welcome and that clergy who would preach against homosexual behavior are banned. Yet only the conservative clergy still preach against unmarried parenthood. So the effective purge of conservative clergy from Nordland County (where marriage is now rare) has removed a vital cultural barrier against the practice of parental cohabitation.
For secular Scandinavians as well, same-sex registered partnerships have reinforced the view that marriage is unrelated to parenthood. When Sweden gave registered partners adoption rights in 2003, supporters of the change identified the acceptance of gay adoption with acceptance of single parenthood.
Socially conservative districts of Norway had relatively low out-of-wedlock birthrates in the early '90s, when registered partnerships were established. Since then, conservative districts have seen a substantial rise in the out-of-wedlock birthrates, for both firstborn and subsequent children. Even before the establishment of registered partnerships, most parents in socially liberal districts, like Norway’s Nordland County, had their first child out of wedlock. Today, **not only 80 percent of first-born children in Nordland but nearly 60 percent of subsequent children **are born out of wedlock. Clearly, in a place where de facto gay marriage has gained almost complete acceptance, marriage itself has almost completely disappeared.
With increases in the rate of middle-class parental cohabitation, Americans have already seen signs of the Scandinavian family pattern. In its 2000 report “Principles of the Law of Family Dissolution,” the influential American Law Institute has proposed legal reforms that would equalize marriage and cohabitation, Scandinavian style. By getting Americans used to a strong separation between marriage and parenthood, gay marriage would draw out these trends and put us firmly on the path to the Scandinavian system. And unlike Scandinavia, America has an underclass, whose families would suffer greatly from a further separation between marriage and parenthood.
The Scandinavian example shows that there are valid – and secular – reasons to believe that same-sex marriage will undercut marriage itself."
"Same-sex registered partnerships are Scandinavia’s latest contribution to Western family change – a sharp cultural separation between the ideas of marriage and parenthood. Even before the establishment of registered partnerships, many Scandinavians were starting to have their first child outside of marriage. Although the couple’s relationship was still considered experimental through the birth of the first child, most parents did marry before the birth of the second child.
The problem with this system is that unmarried parents break up at two to three times the rate of married parents. So as Scandinavians separated the ideas of marriage and parenthood, family dissolution rates rose – placing first-born children at particular risk. The growing Scandinavian separation of marriage and parenthood made it difficult to deny marriage to same-sex couples. Yet the creation of registered partnerships has only locked in and reinforced the separation between the ideas of marriage and parenthood, thereby accelerating marital decline.
Same-sex registered partnerships have contributed to Scandinavian marital decline in several ways. The controversy over registered partnerships created a divide in Norway’s Lutheran Church. The most striking example can be found in Norway’s socially liberal Nordland County, where churches fly rainbow flags. The flags signal that clergy in same-sex registered partnerships are welcome and that clergy who would preach against homosexual behavior are banned. Yet only the conservative clergy still preach against unmarried parenthood. So the effective purge of conservative clergy from Nordland County (where marriage is now rare) has removed a vital cultural barrier against the practice of parental cohabitation.
For secular Scandinavians as well, same-sex registered partnerships have reinforced the view that marriage is unrelated to parenthood. When Sweden gave registered partners adoption rights in 2003, supporters of the change identified the acceptance of gay adoption with acceptance of single parenthood.
Socially conservative districts of Norway had relatively low out-of-wedlock birthrates in the early '90s, when registered partnerships were established. Since then, conservative districts have seen a substantial rise in the out-of-wedlock birthrates, for both firstborn and subsequent children. Even before the establishment of registered partnerships, most parents in socially liberal districts, like Norway’s Nordland County, had their first child out of wedlock. Today, **not only 80 percent of first-born children in Nordland but nearly 60 percent of subsequent children **are born out of wedlock. Clearly, in a place where de facto gay marriage has gained almost complete acceptance, marriage itself has almost completely disappeared.
With increases in the rate of middle-class parental cohabitation, Americans have already seen signs of the Scandinavian family pattern. In its 2000 report “Principles of the Law of Family Dissolution,” the influential American Law Institute has proposed legal reforms that would equalize marriage and cohabitation, Scandinavian style. By getting Americans used to a strong separation between marriage and parenthood, gay marriage would draw out these trends and put us firmly on the path to the Scandinavian system. And unlike Scandinavia, America has an underclass, whose families would suffer greatly from a further separation between marriage and parenthood.
The Scandinavian example shows that there are valid – and secular – reasons to believe that same-sex marriage will undercut marriage itself."
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WillieWonka
Guest
Sweden accepted single parenthood when they decided to make very generous payments to single mothers. They could live a comfortable life with their children and the monthly government check. That was good old money, not gay marriage. When the payments started, behavior adapted.
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Charlotte408
Guest
i dont see where your going with this, sorry?? how does it relate to anything you quoted…and same sex marriage?? welfare…for families, single mothers, single fathers…is one thing…while i agree that same sex marriage is not the only reason for the family unit breakdown (i.e welfare, strong secularism, contraception, abortion) ← this system began the breakdown, but same sex marriage reinforced the separation of marriage and parenthood accelearating the marital decline…kinda like the last thing you could possibly to do further **** things up…
pardon mah french
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buffalo
Guest
Again, read the linked article. It is all in there. Why don’t you highlight the parts you disagree with and then the answer in the article?
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WillieWonka
Guest
I’m not soing anyehere with it. I simply provided the most powerful factor that effected behavior - money. You can have secularism, contraception, and SSM and nothing happens. Pay people, and all of a sudden behavior changes. Follow the money.i dont see where your going with this, sorry?? how does it relate to anything you quoted…and same sex marriage?? welfare…for families, single mothers, single fathers…is one thing…while i agree that same sex marriage is not the only reason for the family unit breakdown (i.e welfare, strong secularism, contraception, abortion) ← this system began the breakdown, but same sex marriage reinforced the separation of marriage and parenthood accelearating the marital decline…kinda like the last thing you could possibly to do further **** things up…
pardon mah french
Can you tell us exactly how same sex marriage caused marriage decline? How did the same sex couple down the block cause people to decide not to marry? What is the causal connection?
Do we see a decline in marriage in Massachusetts? They have welfare, secularism, contraception, and gay marriage. I bet if you paid a lot of money to single mothers, all of a sudden, there would be more of them in Massachusetts…
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WillieWonka
Guest
Well, you made the claim, so I ask you to support it. You said gay marriage subverts the family unit. So, tell us exactly how it does that.
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buffalo
Guest
“SAME-SEX ‘MARRIAGE’ DOES NOT
THREATEN TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE.
THEY CAN COEXIST SIDE BY SIDE!”
It is said that vice asks for nothing more than to sit next to
virtue. When vice is allowed to peacefully coexist with virtue,
the latter is corrupted. Virtue is only integral as long as it
vigorously combats its opposite.
Same-sex “marriage” destroys the integrity of true marriage
by turning traditional marriage into a species within the
marriage genus. This broad marriage genus would supposedly
encompass traditional marriage, homosexual or heterosexual
unions, and whatever other bizarre new relationships might
arise.6 This new “marriage” genus, however, is not marriage.
Marriage is the permanent, sacred bond uniting a man and
woman who desire to constitute a family and face life’s trials
together. Marriage entails selfless dedication, devotion and
sacrifice. Marriage and the family are sacred institutions that
foster the common good of society.
The legalization of same-sex “marriage” and its placement
on equal footing with traditional marriage subverts and
destroys the latter. When public authority and society in
general deny true marriage’s uniqueness and irreplaceable
contribution to the common good, and when individuals can
find its legal incentives and rewards more easily in counterfeits,
then true marriage is on the road to extinction.
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WillieWonka
Guest
Sorry. Tha just makes the same unsupported assertion you do. Neither you nor the article tell us exactly how marriage is subverted. Exactly what does it mean to say marriage is subverted? You don’t tell us. The article doesn’t tell us. Subversion is a conclusion. What observations support that conclusion? What does one see thatprompts him to say marriage is subverted. So, can you tell us?
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Benadam
Guest
Suppose a school of philosophy began a campaign to convince the masses that Atheism was just another religious movement disguised as ‘unbelief’. The masses are buying into it. Soon the word becomes attached to an entirely different concept than what atheism is in reality. ( sound familiar?)The word is trashed and what atheism really is no longer has an authentic expression. A condition that threatens it’s very existence.
The problem is, the marital bond isn’t being treated as a reality or even a possible reality, by those who are trying to redefine it. Your remarks are clearly of that view or else it would be obvious to you how it, as a reality, can be subverted if the word attached to it defines something other than what it is.
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