Defending Pius XII

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I am very frustrated for multiple reasons. One, the Jews all hate Pius XII because of his alleged silence during WW2, without a whit of understanding of the context of it all, and despite more evidence than one could ever imagine that the Jews at the time were immensely, immensely grateful for what he did. Two, the news media, for not doing their homework, but this is expected of them. But three, I am frustrated with the Holy Father and the Holy See for their bizarre handling of the situation and their lack of defending Pius XII.

As I’ve said there is a copious amount of information completely exonerating Pope Pius XII. The Holy See has chosen to reveal none of it. Whether they are ignorant of it, or opting to withhold it out of diplomacy, I don’t know. If the latter, it would then seem imprudent to advance his Cause, not because he doesn’t deserve it, but because the circumstances aren’t adequately explained enough to prevent a backlash, which is exactly what’s happened. It’s so bad that the Jews on our side argue basically that we’re not sure Pius XII was as bad as we think he is.

What on earth is going on here? Why won’t the Holy See defend in the face of crushing opposition the very person she seeks to canonize? And if she won’t defend him, why is she pushing the Cause?
 
The Pius XII canonization push is yet another blunder by the Vatican (in a long string of blunders since this pope has been in Rome). It saddens we that we have such a tone deaf pontiff. Every time he does something, it has to be explained. Ususally the explainations are as silly as the acts themselves. Eventhough JPII and the Holy Father shared most ideas about theology, the truths of JPII were so obvious when revealed.
 
Read the book THE MYTH OF HITLER’S POPE by Rabbi Davil Dalin.
 
Discerning2 said:
The Pius XII canonization push is yet another blunder by the Vatican (in a long string of blunders since this pope has been in Rome). It saddens we that we have such a tone deaf pontiff. Every time he does something, it has to be explained. Ususally the explainations are as silly as the acts themselves. Even though JPII and the Holy Father shared most ideas about theology, the truths of JPII were so obvious when revealed.
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Your position sounds like the Los Angeles Times editorial board…after the Pope’s Regensburg speech…they severely chastised the Pope for being insensitive to Muslims and the Islamic faith…I can’t find the editorial but here is (part w/website) of George Weigel’s rebuttal:
**Calm down and listen: The pope is right **
​
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** The furor over his remarks on Islam is drowning out a crucial message.**
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September 20, 2006|George Weigel, GEORGE WEIGEL, a senior fellow of Washington’s Ethics and Public Policy Center, is the author of “God’s Choice: Pope Benedict XVI and the Future of the Catholic Church.”
IN A BRILLIANT lecture at the University of Regensburg last week, Pope Benedict XVI made three crucial points that are now in danger of being lost in the polemics about his supposedly offensive comments about Islam.
The pope’s first point was that all the great questions of life, including social and political questions, are ultimately theological. How we think (or don’t think) about God has much to do with how we judge what is good and what is wicked, and with how we think about the appropriate methods for advancing the truth in a world in which there are profound disagreements about the truth of things…articles.latimes.com/2006/sep/20/opinion/oe-weigel20
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Guess what? The Pope (and the Vatican) is the only leader on the World stage who has met with and had numerous discussions…both in conference and privately with dozens of Muslim clerics and scholars…and they plan to do it every two years!
npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96735197Copyright © 2009 National Public Radio®. For personal, noncommercial use only. See Terms of Use. For other uses, prior permission required.
RENEE MONTAGNE, host:
Muslim and Catholic scholars held an unprecedented meeting at the Vatican. Over three days they vowed to work together to combat violence and terrorism, especially when carried out in God’s name. A joint declaration called for freedom of conscience but did not address the issue of conversion.
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**58 scholars, 29 from each faith, gathered at the Vatican for an inter-religious dialogue under the theme ‘Love of God, Love of Neighbor.’
**
The Catholic-Muslim forum will now meet every two years and the two delegations agreed to study the possibility of creating a permanent community to deal jointly with conflicts and emergency situations such as the 2006 Danish cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that sparked violent protest in the Islamic word. Sylvia Poggioli, NPR News, Rome
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By By Frances D’emilio, **The Assosiated Press ** Thursday, 06 November 2008VATICAN CITY (AP) — Christians and Muslims must overcome their misunderstandings, Pope Benedict XVI told Muslim clergy and scholars Thursday as he pressed for greater freedom of worship for non-Muslims in the Islamic world.
His meeting in the Apostolic Palace with a delegation of scholars and other Muslim representatives capped a three-day conference in Rome involving Catholic clergy and professors and Islamic experts. Benedict told participants he had followed the “progress” of the talks closely.
acommonword.com/en/a-common-word-in-the-news/14-general-news/121-pope-meets-with-muslim-scholars-urges-better-ties.html
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associatedcontent.com/article/672349/first_catholic_church_for_saudi_arabia.html?cat=9**
First Catholic Church for Saudi Arabia**
March 23, 2008 by
rudy3107Now the King of Saudi Arabia is planning to allow the Catholic Chruch to build the first Chruch in Saudi Arabia…
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While it is home to 800,000 Catholics-- virtually all of them foreign workers-- Saudi Arabia is the only country on the Arabian Peninsula without a Catholic church.** However King Abdullah has now given his support to the drive for construction of a Catholic church. **
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Saudi Arabia does not have formal diplomatic relations with the Holy See. But in November 2007, King Abdullah became the first reigning Saudi monarch ever to visit the Vatican. Commenting after his meeting with Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news), Vatican officials had confirmed that the Pontiff pressed for permission to open a Catholic church
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Not bad for a guy who is** Tone Deaf.**…doesn’t seem to have a clue!

Pax Christi
 
Lancer said:
Your position sounds like the Los Angeles Times editorial board…after the Pope’s Regensburg speech…they severely chastised the Pope for being insensitive to Muslims and the Islamic faith…I can’t find the editorial but here is (part w/website) of George Weigel’s rebuttal:Guess what? The Pope (and the Vatican) is the only leader on the World stage who has met with and had numerous discussions…both in conference and privately with dozens of Muslim clerics and scholars…and they plan to do it every two years!

Not bad for a guy who is** Tone Deaf.**…doesn’t seem to have a clue!

Pax Christi
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I guess you proved my point precisely. All the explanations.

Look, I love the Holy Father, please don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think it’s genious to be so out of tune with actual human beings. I don’t think his writings, from what I read, are all that awesome that we simlpy don’t understand. His commentary is the thin sauce of reliance on immature ideas about nature that we’ve heard for centuries. But, not everyone can be JPII, The Great.
 
I think you are missing the point. No explanation is really necessary if people would only look at the historical record where Pius XII is concerned.
And JPII also got vilified plenty from the Jewish community for canonizing St. Edith Stein, beatifying Pius IX, as well his “refusal” to open Vatican archives on Pius XII. All of that stuff has to be cataloged first. The Church has to move ahead with its own agenda sometimes. No one else is really entitled to have a veto on that.
Remember Benedict is dealing with an anti Church media which is trigger happy no matter what he does. He came to the papacy with a “conservative” reputation and none of them can really live with that.

C.
 
Not all Jews hate Catholicism and the historical Pius XII, my friend. The noise just seems to come from the rabble-rousing, secular ones who wear God on their sleeves while harboring Satan in their hearts. Their oy veys! are worthless as the cries of racism and victimization by the likes of the reverends Jackson and Sharpton, all of whom find willing accomplices in the secular media. Anyone who is not riding the Modernist bandwagon is by default an anti-semite/racist/sexist/homophobe. Both the Church and grateful Jews have repeatedly defended Piux XII, but don’t expect the secular media to give them balanced time.
 
Cetil said:
I think you are missing the point. No explanation is really necessary if people would only look at the historical record where Pius XII is concerned.
And JPII also got vilified plenty from the Jewish community for canonizing St. Edith Stein, beatifying Pius IX, as well his “refusal” to open Vatican archives on Pius XII. All of that stuff has to be cataloged first. The Church has to move ahead with its own agenda sometimes. No one else is really entitled to have a veto on that.
Remember Benedict is dealing with an anti Church media which is trigger happy no matter what he does. He came to the papacy with a “conservative” reputation and none of them can really live with that.

C.
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I am sure JPII did get a little flack from Jews with regard to St. Stein. But, and I am not being insensitive, it was a move that resonated with Christians and not much was needed to be explained. With Benedict, his idea of unity is lifting the excommunication of a holocaust denier. I think I was offended by that at the time too. But then we had all of these explainations. One explaination comes so close to lying (“I didn’t know about the holocaust stuff”) but I will never come out and say the pope intentionally mislead anybody out of respect.

In the end, the papacy is a collaboration (I think it is, I assume it is). His collaborators, as professionals, not as holy men of God, are as useful as a mouth full of rotten teeth.
 
Discerning2 said:
I am sure JPII did get a little flack from Jews with regard to St. Stein. But, and I am not being insensitive, it was a move that resonated with Christians and not much was needed to be explained. With Benedict, his idea of unity is lifting the excommunication of a holocaust denier. I think I was offended by that at the time too. But then we had all of these explainations. One explaination comes so close to lying (“I didn’t know about the holocaust stuff”) but I will never come out and say the pope intentionally mislead anybody out of respect.

In the end, the papacy is a collaboration (I think it is, I assume it is). His collaborators, as professionals, not as holy men of God, are as useful as a mouth full of rotten teeth.
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A little flack? Quite a lot actually. Jewish papers denounced her canonization as did Abraham Foxman of the ADL and the Jewish World Review. Do a little research and you will see.
Yes you are being insensitive. And you are distorting the issues especially when you say Benedict’s idea of unity is “lifting the excommunication of a holocaust denier” !!! Do you really mean to suggest the pope knew Bishop Williamson was a holocaust denier?? And that he thought to himself “oh great what unity this will bring”? That is simply absurd! If you want to respect the pope then don’t distort the issue. Williamson has no hope of reconciliation with the Church until he recants. I do believe some in the Vatican should have done better research. But it more than stretches credibility to suggest the Pope was aware but didn’t care. I’m sure he would have preferred to avoid the firestorm. And Benedict has placed everyone else in the Church on notice that holocaust denial is not acceptable. I can’t imagine what else the Jewish community might want.

C.
 
But three, I am frustrated with the Holy Father and the Holy See for their bizarre handling of the situation and their lack of defending Pius XII.
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I agree with most of what you say but this is false as Benedict XVI celebrated a mass in honor of Pius XII in 2008 and spoke well of him. However a few curial officials might have a hand in the ‘bizarre handling’ as during his reign PXII had a bad relationship with the Curia who did not like his ‘Grand Design’ for the Catholic Church to be monolithic and powerful as it would reduce the power of the curia and probably this mistrust was passed down.
 
Discerning,

I think that you are being reckless in your comments about the Pope. You offer no support for your criticisms other than your own opinions. They do not appear to be well informed and you offer nothing to support the things that you say to form a valid argument.

The Pope is not a politician and does not make his decisions based on popular opinion. I challenge you to present evidence to why the pope has made a blunder in furthering the cause of Pius XII. I also challenge you to give your reasons for discrediting those writings of his that you have read.

I think it is imprudent and haughty to show such disdain for someone like our esteemed Pope. Especially without giving any just cause for doing so.
 
eewanco said:
I am very frustrated for multiple reasons. One, the Jews all hate Pius XII because of his alleged silence during WW2, without a whit of understanding of the context of it all, and despite more evidence than one could ever imagine that the Jews at the time were immensely, immensely grateful for what he did. Two, the news media, for not doing their homework, but this is expected of them. But three, I am frustrated with the Holy Father and the Holy See for their bizarre handling of the situation and their lack of defending Pius XII.

As I’ve said there is a copious amount of information completely exonerating Pope Pius XII. The Holy See has chosen to reveal none of it. Whether they are ignorant of it, or opting to withhold it out of diplomacy, I don’t know. If the latter, it would then seem imprudent to advance his Cause, not because he doesn’t deserve it, but because the circumstances aren’t adequately explained enough to prevent a backlash, which is exactly what’s happened. It’s so bad that the Jews on our side argue basically that we’re not sure Pius XII was as bad as we think he is.

What on earth is going on here? Why won’t the Holy See defend in the face of crushing opposition the very person she seeks to canonize? And if she won’t defend him, why is she pushing the Cause?
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I think even mild speculation will yeild a result that Pope Pius XII, as a Wartime Pope
was probably the most Powerfully Christ like Pope that ever has been.

I do not know what works were WROUGHT Through Pope Pius XII…I am not going to ever
doubt Pope Pius XII insite into what was hell on earth of the worst form.

Europe was dealing with a complete Madman, So far beyond the realm of any sanity that, he was literally exterminating people wholesale, and if you think that the Pope is going to
“Apparently” bend knee to Nazi Europe, to save his Flock, your fricken righto. He will and you can accuse him of it, but that is so short-sighted, The Church’s weapons are not Visible, so Pope Pius XII can act in any manner he will, and not be doing what is apparent. I LOVE POPE PIUS XII, LOVE!!!

Look if me acting in a manner that sends a signal to Berlin that gets my countryman, my clergy and my country erradicated then I am going to give all outward appearances of appeasement also, you should never negotiate with Tyrants, that is true, but a thousand
dead Priests isn’t going to do Europe or anyone else any Good.

Tryants are BRUTLE, They are murderers and HAVE ZERO … ZERO respect as Hitler well showed for any sort of LIFE…

Pope Pius XII, I ashure you was fighting Hitler and Nazi’s tooth and nail, maybe not on a level that you can see with the eye, but I am sure that he was fighting the hardest fight that any Pontif ever fought. So maybe people should cut Pope Pius XII some slack, He wasn’t seperated by 2000 miles of water from the Nazi’s… He was up to his neck in Nazi’s, and murder, and tyrants, and thugs, and all kinds of nastiness, right in his front yard…

My Kingdom is not of this world… Then would my Servants fight… Well HIS Servants DID FIGHT, and they erradicated the worst terror the Earth Had known up to that point.
What hand did Pope Pius XII have in that, I don’t know, but I can ashure you given the Nature of our God and the History we do know of our God that it was substantial.

You can see thousands upon Thousands upon Thousands of Cross’s and Stars of David in Arlington if you require a visual proof that HIS servants Exist.

Those are the most Honored Men that our Country has ever had, and their blood lies all
over Europe, the Pacific, American,French,English,Spanish,Africans,Russians,Polish,Hungarians,.

THE WHOLE WORLD WAS AT WAR. not just a country, the WHOLE WORLD WAS AT WAR.

So I am in Agreement with POPE PIUS XII, if Dialogue and even a lie buy’s my country’s
stability, my Church’s stability and continued existence then. That was probably the
Only Lie Christ ever smiled at…

Priests don’t cary Guns. Nope.

The Brutality that existed in Italians and French and all the others daily lives, we have never seen. We have never seen. Rapes, Murders,murder,murder,murder,murder
Ash floating through they air, Zyklon B raining down in Showers upon helpless naked,
screaming men, women and children… Fathers watching their Children be poisoned to
death right in front of their very own eyes, as they are dying also… What HELLISHness
was the world in, and is Pope Pius XII…

Love Exterminated Wholesale, a Mans Love for his wife and children, just fricken turned
into the most Hellish visions they have ever seen as their brains while suffocating their
respitory systems failing, watched the love in their lives die right in front of them, Childrens
shrieks as only helpless Children can… screaming for Mommy and Daddy,

And So Literally LIFE had TO FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE AROUND A -OD -AMNABLE HELLISH PERSON AND HIS GANG OF MURDEROUS TYRANTS…

I Can’t even comprehend the horror of those years.
 
eewanco said:
I am very frustrated for multiple reasons. One, the Jews all hate Pius XII because of his alleged silence during WW2, without a whit of understanding of the context of it all,
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I tend to use the following sites:

catholicleague.org/pius.php

And I also used to point people to the Yad Vashem site - but this was a couple of years ago. They had an article which gave kudos to Pius XII - not sure if it is still there now.
 
That’s a good site. Yad Vashem tends to handle the issue somewhat warily though they issued a statement criticizing the Vatican’s recent decision to proceed with the beatification of Pius XII until scholars had a chance to examine all the materials in Vatican archives. That hardly makes sense as the scholars would not be making a decision on the merits of Pope Pius’ case. It does need to be pointed out however that Cardinal Palazzini is memorialized at Yad Vashem for his work to rescue Jews during WW2. Palazzini always said that he acted under the orders of Pius XII.
 
While I’m grateful for the references, I already have ample evidence to argue in favor of Pius XII; my question is not how to defend him, but why the church is not defending him except a half-hearted lame-sounding “well he worked quietly behind the scenes”. The man ghost-wrote the only encyclical written in German, Mit Brenniger Sorge (sp?), which directly condemned national socialism. Not once but twice the New York Times praised him as the only voice crying out in favor of the Jews. The Jews begged him to be quiet because their lives were in danger when he openly condemned Hitler. The man was not silent.
 
eewanco said:
I am very frustrated for multiple reasons. One, the Jews all hate Pius XII because of his alleged silence during WW2, without a whit of understanding of the context of it all, and despite more evidence than one could ever imagine that the Jews at the time were immensely, immensely grateful for what he did.
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“All Jews” do not do anything. Many or most might dislike Pius XII but not all.
As I’ve said there is a copious amount of information completely exonerating Pope Pius XII. The Holy See has chosen to reveal none of it.
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If the information is out there then it is already revealed.
 
Dear NewEnglandPries:
One, the Jews all hate Pius XII because of his alleged silence during WW2, without a whit of understanding of the context of it all, and despite more evidence than one could ever imagine that the Jews at the time were immensely, immensely grateful for what he did.
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“All Jews” do not do anything. Many or most might dislike Pius XII but not all.
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I did not say “all Jews”. I said “the Jews”, which carries the same meaning it does in Scripture, viz., the chief leaders, but not necessarily everyone without exception.
As I’ve said there is a copious amount of information completely exonerating Pope Pius XII. The Holy See has chosen to reveal none of it.
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If the information is out there then it is already revealed.
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I could argue semantics but I don’t think that’s profitable. I think my meaning was clear: The Holy See is not promoting, revealing, arguing, echoing, disclosing, saying, announcing, etc. etc. the truth about Pius XII.
 
eewanco said:
I did not say “all Jews”. I said “the Jews”, which carries the same meaning it does in Scripture, viz., the chief leaders, but not necessarily everyone without exception.
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Re-read your statement: “the Jews all hate Pius XII…” In the usual sense to say a group “all hate” something is to state that everyone in the group hates that thing.
Secondly, you are not an inspired author of Scripture writing in the 1st century…
I could argue semantics but I don’t think that’s profitable. I think my meaning was clear: The Holy See is not promoting, revealing, arguing, echoing, disclosing, saying, announcing, etc. etc. the truth about Pius XII.
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I disagree. The Holy See has done these things already. It seems to be a matter of not wanting to go round and round.
 
Pope Benedict XVI has not been silent in regards to Pius XII, whoever believes he has been doing nothing has obviously not read much on the matter. He has made comments and statements where relevant regarding Pius XII, whether it be on his beatification or something to do with the archives. A lot was said back in October 2008, the 50th death anniversary of Pius XII.

He has expressed that he has no doubt (or something to that effect) Pius XII’s eligibility to be beatified, but also cautioned that there is a right time to do it. Beatifying Pius XII during discordant times with respect to Jewish relations might not be the best thing. As for the archive records, the 75 year policy remains, so it will be open in 2014.
 
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