Defending the Catholic Faith

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Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Do we historic confessional Protestants proclaim a different gospel than Orthodox Catholics do?
Originally Posted by guanophore
Definitely, and different from all those who have retained the ancient Apostolic Teaching.
No Other Gospel
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Apostle Paul
As Christians, we are commanded to to proclaim and defend the gospel of God. Since I apparently believe and proclaim a different gospel, here is your chance to defend the Catholic Faith. Why is my gospel different than your gospel?
 
Because you reject what Christ Jesus taught on the Eucharist, purgatory, salvation, the Church, the Papacy, and more. If you want to learn more about that, go here.
Acts 15
7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.”
Acts 20
24 “Yet I consider life of no importance to me, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to bear witness to the gospel of God’s grace.”
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.
17 For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous by faith will live.”
Galatians 2
3 Moreover, not even Titus, who was with me, although he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised,
4 but because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, that they might enslave us -
5 to them we did not submit even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain intact for you.
Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.”
Mark 13
22 False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect.
23 Be watchful! I have told it all to you beforehand.
2 Peter 2
1 There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
3 In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destructiondoes not sleep.
1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
2 Corinthians 11
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to end this pretext of those who seek a pretext for being regarded as we are in the mission of which they boast.
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
Galatians 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
 
Because you reject what Christ Jesus taught on the Eucharist, purgatory, salvation, the Church, the Papacy, and more. If you want to learn more about that, go here.
Do you agree with Guanophore that we historic confessional Protetstants believe in a different gospel under the curse which Paul speaks of? I don’t think the links to Catholic Answer tracts are offiicial Catholic sources of dogma. Catholic Answer tracts are not considered sacred written tradition, are they?
 
**Originally Posted by Eucharisted **
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.
17 For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous by faith will live.”
What is the gospel that you are not ashamed of? Please proclaim the gospel to me to help me understand where I am in error.
 
I don’t think the links to Catholic Answer tracts are offiicial Catholic sources of dogma. Catholic Answer tracts are not considered sacred written tradition, are they?
The offer was to go to that link IF you wanted to learn more. You’re the one asking for answers, so… have you gone there and read with an honest effort to try and understand the differences? Does something have to be “official” for you to gain understanding from it? Would you prefer links to the Vatican website and the CCC instead?
 
The offer was to go to that link IF you wanted to learn more. You’re the one asking for answers, so… have you gone there and read with an honest effort to try and understand the differences? Does something have to be “official” for you to gain understanding from it? Would you prefer links to the Vatican website and the CCC instead?
I think several staunch die hard Catholics have turned up the discussion and friendly debate a few notches. I was told that I believe in a different gospel. Therefore, in light of the Apostle Paul, someone is believing in a false gospel under the curse of God. Please help me understand the true gospel by simply proclaiming the true gospel to me.
 
Please help me understand the true gospel by simply proclaiming the true gospel to me.
I have written a 15 page answer to your question here: dmar198.googlepages.com/This_Is_the_Good_News.pdf

Here is an important part that concerns you:

JESUS OF NAZARETH

About 2000 years ago, a child was born in Bethlehem, Judea, and was called Jesus, from the Hebrew name Joshua. His life is recorded in the second section of the Bible, called the New Testament, which is easy to read and shorter even than most novels. According to the New Testament, when Jesus was around 30 years of age, He commenced a ministry which his cousin, John, had begun. John had said that the arrival of the One whom God would send into the world - to save us from our sins - was imminent. John said that that One would save all people, bringing us back to a right relationship with God, but only if we would repent of our sins and go to Him for forgiveness. This repentance ministry which John started still continues today. …

Jesus encouraged every sinful person who came to him to repent of their sins and return to God. Only when all people forsake sin and turn back to God, He said, can they be saved. …

Those followers of Jesus who recognized His true relationship to God became His greatest friends. But those Jews who did not follow Jesus charged Him with blasphemy, because in saying that God was His Father, they thought He was dishonoring God. And so came the most horrible event in human history: the Jewish people sentenced the Son of God Jesus Christ to death, on the charge of blasphemy. They delivered Him over to the Roman guards, who inflicted on Him the most severe punishment of their time - death by crucifixion, preceded by flogging and other tortures. …

It is one of the most horrific and yet unflinchingly insisted teachings of Christianity that God Himself died for us. We must teach it because God Himself - in His Son Jesus the Christ - predicted that it would be, taught that it was, and reminded us afterward that it had been. What makes this even harder is that He did this for us, sinners who only rebelled against Him the whole time. “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8) So said Paul of Tarsis, one of the greatest Christian writers whose letters are included in the New Testament.

But the death of our Savior is not the end of the story. The climax occurs when we find that Christ rose again from the dead. After three days, death lost its grip on the God-made-man, and to life again rose Christ the Lord. He appeared to His friends, whom He had named His Twelve Apostles, and promised them that, just as He had been raised to glorious life, so would all who call on His Name be resurrected as sons of God through adoption. That is the most important promise that Christianity makes: new life with our Lord for all who call on His Name.

Jesus told His Apostles that He was to go back to His Father in Heaven, but He left them with the assurance that He would also remain with them. To that end He promised to send the Holy Spirit of His Father, whom we understand to be the Third Person of the Godhead, the divine, personal fellowship flowing from the communion between the Father and the Son, revealed by Jesus to have a personal nature unified with He and His Father.

With this Holy Spirit, Jesus promised His Apostles that they would continue His ministry on earth, calling all people to repentance and faith in the Son of the Living God. He gave them His divine authority to forgive sins, exert power over Satan and his demons, and lead all people to the life which Jesus offers.

THE CHURCH

After receiving the Holy Spirit, the Apostles went out at once, and began to tell all the people the things they had heard. Their followers grew in number every day, assembling together daily, especially on Sundays, to celebrate and give thanks to God. They all recognized the authority of the Apostles, listening to them and their teachings, and passing them on to others.

The Apostles passed on the authority that Christ had given them to certain of their own disciples, commissioning them to teach with their authority when they were absent (cf. 1st Corinthians 4:17, Titus 2:15). And after the death of the Apostles, those men continued to fulfill that ministry, preaching and teaching future generations. The hierarchy in the Church structure was explained by Paul (cf. 1st Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11-12) to consist of lay people and their ministries, with their pastors above them together with the Evangelists, above them the prophets, and highest of all the Apostles themselves. …

WHY BE CATHOLIC?

You should be a Catholic because the Catholic Church is sensible. She claims to have authority on religious matters, unlike any other Christian church, and can substantiate that claim. She preaches in the universality of Christian doctrine, a thing which no other Christian church currently does. She has the liturgy. Most of all, she has the Eucharist.

This is an age of a post-Christian world. Governments and people - even many Christians - have abandoned the teachings of Christ. And what are the effects? Murderers run rampant. Families split apart. Children are killed. People are starving. Diseases spread like plagues. In some countries, nearly all of the people lack education, water, sufficient clothing and shelter.

None of these would have resulted had Christian principles stayed in tact. We must keep Christ, or the world will kill itself! Even now, secular governments are promoting more problems, because they have abandoned the Christian Church. If you want to help stop this, visit a local Catholic parish, and talk to a priest! Spread the gospel to every nation, and let the world return to the God who saves!
 
I have written a 15 page answer to your question here: dmar198.googlepages.com/This_Is_the_Good_News.pdf

Here is an important part that concerns you:

JESUS OF NAZARETH

About 2000 years ago, a child was born in Bethlehem, Judea, and was called Jesus, from the Hebrew name Joshua. His life is recorded in the second section of the Bible, called the New Testament, which is easy to read and shorter even than most novels. According to the New Testament, when Jesus was around 30 years of age, He commenced a ministry which his cousin, John, had begun. John had said that the arrival of the One whom God would send into the world - to save us from our sins - was imminent. John said that that One would save all people, bringing us back to a right relationship with God, but only if we would repent of our sins and go to Him for forgiveness. This repentance ministry which John started still continues today. …

Jesus encouraged every sinful person who came to him to repent of their sins and return to God. Only when all people forsake sin and turn back to God, He said, can they be saved. …

Those followers of Jesus who recognized His true relationship to God became His greatest friends. But those Jews who did not follow Jesus charged Him with blasphemy, because in saying that God was His Father, they thought He was dishonoring God. And so came the most horrible event in human history: the Jewish people sentenced the Son of God Jesus Christ to death, on the charge of blasphemy. They delivered Him over to the Roman guards, who inflicted on Him the most severe punishment of their time - death by crucifixion, preceded by flogging and other tortures. …

It is one of the most horrific and yet unflinchingly insisted teachings of Christianity that God Himself died for us. We must teach it because God Himself - in His Son Jesus the Christ - predicted that it would be, taught that it was, and reminded us afterward that it had been. What makes this even harder is that He did this for us, sinners who only rebelled against Him the whole time. “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8) So said Paul of Tarsis, one of the greatest Christian writers whose letters are included in the New Testament.

But the death of our Savior is not the end of the story. The climax occurs when we find that Christ rose again from the dead. After three days, death lost its grip on the God-made-man, and to life again rose Christ the Lord. He appeared to His friends, whom He had named His Twelve Apostles, and promised them that, just as He had been raised to glorious life, so would all who call on His Name be resurrected as sons of God through adoption. That is the most important promise that Christianity makes: new life with our Lord for all who call on His Name.

Jesus told His Apostles that He was to go back to His Father in Heaven, but He left them with the assurance that He would also remain with them. To that end He promised to send the Holy Spirit of His Father, whom we understand to be the Third Person of the Godhead, the divine, personal fellowship flowing from the communion between the Father and the Son, revealed by Jesus to have a personal nature unified with He and His Father.

With this Holy Spirit, Jesus promised His Apostles that they would continue His ministry on earth, calling all people to repentance and faith in the Son of the Living God. He gave them His divine authority to forgive sins, exert power over Satan and his demons, and lead all people to the life which Jesus offers.

THE CHURCH

After receiving the Holy Spirit, the Apostles went out at once, and began to tell all the people the things they had heard. Their followers grew in number every day, assembling together daily, especially on Sundays, to celebrate and give thanks to God. They all recognized the authority of the Apostles, listening to them and their teachings, and passing them on to others.

The Apostles passed on the authority that Christ had given them to certain of their own disciples, commissioning them to teach with their authority when they were absent (cf. 1st Corinthians 4:17, Titus 2:15). And after the death of the Apostles, those men continued to fulfill that ministry, preaching and teaching future generations. The hierarchy in the Church structure was explained by Paul (cf. 1st Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11-12) to consist of lay people and their ministries, with their pastors above them together with the Evangelists, above them the prophets, and highest of all the Apostles themselves. …

WHY BE CATHOLIC?

You should be a Catholic because the Catholic Church is sensible. She claims to have authority on religious matters, unlike any other Christian church, and can substantiate that claim. She preaches in the universality of Christian doctrine, a thing which no other Christian church currently does. She has the liturgy. Most of all, she has the Eucharist.

This is an age of a post-Christian world. Governments and people - even many Christians - have abandoned the teachings of Christ. And what are the effects? Murderers run rampant. Families split apart. Children are killed. People are starving. Diseases spread like plagues. In some countries, nearly all of the people lack education, water, sufficient clothing and shelter.

None of these would have resulted had Christian principles stayed in tact. We must keep Christ, or the world will kill itself! Even now, secular governments are promoting more problems, because they have abandoned the Christian Church. If you want to help stop this, visit a local Catholic parish, and talk to a priest! Spread the gospel to every nation, and let the world return to the God who saves!
Thanks, and I will try to read it when I have time. I think when Paul and the Apostles proclaimed the good news of God, it was something much different than what you posted. The gospel proclamation recorded in Scripture is not a 15 page proclamation. What is the gospel according to the Apostle Paul?

No Other Gospel - by Paul

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
 
No Other Gospel - by Paul

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
As Christians, we are commanded to to proclaim and defend the gospel of God. Since I apparently believe and proclaim a different gospel, here is your chance to defend the Catholic Faith. Why is my gospel different than your gospel?
Because you are distorting the gospel that was preached to us.
Because your teachings are contrary to the one we received from the apostles, the Catholic Church.

If you say they’re not then why are you separated from us?:confused:
 
It’s often hard to tell the difference between honest questions and trolling.

If yours is the former, then why ignore what someone (the CA tract writers) went to great lengths to prepare for you?

Things get heated in arguments, internet or otherwise. It’s of no help to quote somebody’s (possibly angry) quote with no context and ask for opinions on that quote.

Every one of us has a flawed and imperfect understanding of Christ and the gospel. A literal reading of St. Paul would thus send us ALL to hell in a handbasket. But Paul isn’t really condemning those who misunderstand. He’s condemning those who would seek to change the gospel and bend it to their own interests. Have you done that? I certainly don’t know, and it isn’t my job to find out. That’s God’s job.

What I DO know is that if you subscribe to one of the theological novelties invented in the last 500 years, then you misunderstand at least part of christianity. That’s OK, I’m sure I misunderstand quite a bit of it too. After all, I’m not dead yet. We both need to invest the time we have here on earth in getting to know Jesus better and choosing to allow him to conform us to him.

So the question REALLY becomes: “At what level of erroneous belief does a person cease to be a christian, but instead becomes a believer in a difference gospel?” right?
The only accurate answer would have to be… it depends!
 
No Other Gospel - by Paul

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Because you are distorting the gospel that was preached to us.
Because your teachings are contrary to the one we received from the apostles, the Catholic Church.

If you say they’re not then why are you separated from us?:confused:
Since you too are claiming that historic confessional Protestants preach a different gospel than what Paul proclaimed, please proclaim the true gospel to me so I can repent of my error. As you noticed, Catholics have a hard time proclaiming the gospel according the the Apostle Paul. Here is an easy question: what must I do to be saved?
 
It’s often hard to tell the difference between honest questions and trolling.

If yours is the former, then why ignore what someone (the CA tract writers) went to great lengths to prepare for you?

Things get heated in arguments, internet or otherwise. It’s of no help to quote somebody’s (possibly angry) quote with no context and ask for opinions on that quote.

Every one of us has a flawed and imperfect understanding of Christ and the gospel. A literal reading of St. Paul would thus send us ALL to hell in a handbasket. But Paul isn’t really condemning those who misunderstand. He’s condemning those who would seek to change the gospel and bend it to their own interests. Have you done that? I certainly don’t know, and it isn’t my job to find out. That’s God’s job.

What I DO know is that if you subscribe to one of the theological novelties invented in the last 500 years, then you misunderstand at least part of christianity. That’s OK, I’m sure I misunderstand quite a bit of it too. After all, I’m not dead yet. We both need to invest the time we have here on earth in getting to know Jesus better and choosing to allow him to conform us to him.

So the question REALLY becomes: “At what level of erroneous belief does a person cease to be a christian, but instead becomes a believer in a difference gospel?” right?
The only accurate answer would have to be… it depends!
This is not trolling. Since I have been told that I hold to a gospel under the curse of God, please proclaim the true gospel which the Apostle Paul proclaimed to sinners.
 
OK, now we have several books in the Bible (even if yours left out a few books, don’t we?) There we go. Do you want us to start linking from, oh, say, the Douay Rheim’s on line Bible? Because that’s where I’d start. Why don’t y’all go to Genesis, right now, read the Douay (www.drbo.org) and then when you start disagreeing from the Catholic teaching there, make a note. Continue through the entire Bible, again, making notes where you disagree with the Catholic teaching (check the footnotes). Here, I’ll start you. Genesis 1, 1: drbo.org/chapter/01001.htm Then you can come back and explain why you disagree. Once we’ve finished with the Bible, with which you should be quite familiar, we’ll move on to the Catechism. But we can’t really address the catechism until you’ve read all the way through the Bible and understand the Catholic teaching of the Bible, because that is what the Catechism bases itself on, and then builds on using the early Church Fathers (that’s the NEXT part that you can read through, there are even tracts on this site), etc.
 
All right. First you preach your whole, complete and entire gospel to us though, so we’ll be SURE that we’re giving you exactly what you would be giving us were YOU proclaiming your faith. You’re the one asking so you’re the one who knows ‘what’ you want.
 
OK, now we have several books in the Bible (even if yours left out a few books, don’t we?) There we go. Do you want us to start linking from, oh, say, the Douay Rheim’s on line Bible? Because that’s where I’d start. Why don’t y’all go to Genesis, right now, read the Douay (www.drbo.org) and then when you start disagreeing from the Catholic teaching there, make a note. Continue through the entire Bible, again, making notes where you disagree with the Catholic teaching (check the footnotes). Here, I’ll start you. Genesis 1, 1: drbo.org/chapter/01001.htm Then you can come back and explain why you disagree. Once we’ve finished with the Bible, with which you should be quite familiar, we’ll move on to the Catechism. But we can’t really address the catechism until you’ve read all the way through the Bible and understand the Catholic teaching of the Bible, because that is what the Catechism bases itself on, and then builds on using the early Church Fathers (that’s the NEXT part that you can read through, there are even tracts on this site), etc.
Please simply proclaim the true gospel to me if you are able. No links are necessary if you truly know the true gospel which Paul preached to sinners.

1 Corinthians 9:16
For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
 
All right. First you preach your whole, complete and entire gospel to us though, so we’ll be SURE that we’re giving you exactly what you would be giving us were YOU proclaiming your faith. You’re the one asking so you’re the one who knows ‘what’ you want.
Don’t try to put it on me. I have been told by several Catholics that I hold to a different gospel which is under the curse of God (Gal 1). Therefore, if you really know the gospel according to Paul, then please simply proclaim it to me. The gospel means good news which Christians proclaim to the world. What is the good news of God?

Romans 16:25

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages - Paul
 
Not all of us were made to be preachers.
What is the gospel that you are not ashamed of? Please proclaim the gospel to me to help me understand where I am in error.
Perhaps it would be easier to start with what you believe to be the gospel?
 
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