Defending the Catholic Faith

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2nd_Adam said:
I can receive what the Pope taught on justification by faith alone in context of the entire work on my signature. Many other Evangelicals embrace it too because we rejoice in what we consider a change to a more bibilcal understanding of the doctrine of justification.
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This is the root of the problem. I am glad you are willing to rejoice in the Truth, 2nd, but you are really doing so from a false premise. You see, this teaching is NOT a CHANGE. it is a misrepresentation for you to purport it as such. If there is any change, it is in the perceptions of Evangelicals, and not the Teaching of the Church. This has been the unbroken Teaching from the beginning.

Furthermore, although I am glad the Pope’s Teaching on Justification is consistent with how you understand the Scripture, it is not “more biblical” than it was before. In fact, this teaching PRECEDED the making of the NT by almost 400 years. The NT reflects the teaching of the Apostles. Catholic doctrine came from the Apostles, and was whole and entire before the NT was ever written.
 
2nd_Adam said:
I can receive what the Pope taught on justification by faith alone in context of the entire work on my signature. Many other Evangelicals embrace it too because we rejoice in what we consider a change to a more bibilcal understanding of the doctrine of justification. As a reminder, here’s how Evangelicals interpert the Pope’s teaching on justification by faith alone. 🙂

christianitytoday.com/ct/article_print.html?id=72715
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But I think the whole point of Sola Fide is precisely that. Faith ALONE. Once you have that word ALONE, then it no longer works. That is why that clarification, the BIG IF in Pope Benedicts’s address is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

The whole problem is that Evangelicals still do believe the ALONE bit. And Luther really believed that ALONE bit which is why he inserted the word ALONE in his translation when it was not really there in the original greek and also why he tried to get rid of the book of James. If you really stick to the Bible, the only time the words FAITH ALONE are mentioned together is when it was preceded by NOT… so NOT BY FAITH ALONE. :).

Also Evangelicals still believe in “Faith Alone” in the stricter sense which is why you have the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

So yes, do quote the Bible on this, but make sure that you get the quote right i.e. “NOT BY FAITH ALONE”.
 
guanophore said:
This is the root of the problem. I am glad you are willing to rejoice in the Truth, 2nd, but you are really doing so from a false premise. You see, this teaching is NOT a CHANGE. it is a misrepresentation for you to purport it as such. If there is any change, it is in the perceptions of Evangelicals, and not the Teaching of the Church. This has been the unbroken Teaching from the beginning.

Furthermore, although I am glad the Pope’s Teaching on Justification is consistent with how you understand the Scripture, it is not “more biblical” than it was before. In fact, this teaching PRECEDED the making of the NT by almost 400 years. The NT reflects the teaching of the Apostles. Catholic doctrine came from the Apostles, and was whole and entire before the NT was ever written.
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Very well said as usual 👍
 
benedictus2 said:
But I think the whole point of Sola Fide is precisely that. Faith ALONE. Once you have that word ALONE, then it no longer works. That is why that clarification, the BIG IF in Pope Benedicts’s address is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

The whole problem is that Evangelicals still do believe the ALONE bit. And Luther really believed that ALONE bit which is why he inserted the word ALONE in his translation when it was not really there in the original greek and also why he tried to get rid of the book of James. If you really stick to the Bible, the only time the words FAITH ALONE are mentioned together is when it was preceded by NOT… so NOT BY FAITH ALONE. :).

Also Evangelicals still believe in “Faith Alone” in the stricter sense which is why you have the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

So yes, do quote the Bible on this, but make sure that you get the quote right i.e. “NOT BY FAITH ALONE”.
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I think the Pope’s view is consistent with Luther’s view:

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Luther
 
2nd_Adam said:
I think the Pope’s view is consistent with Luther’s view:

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Luther
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So therefore faith alone is not true for renewal of life is necesssary. And renewal of life is evidence by a flourishing of love, and love… is work. 🙂

And if Luther really believed what he wrote above, then why try to get rid of James? Why write “alone” when it is not in the original greek?

The Pope’s view is not consistent with Luther’s view (as if he needs to be consistent with Luther). The Pope’s view is consistent with what has always been the Church view.
 
2nd_Adam said:
You guys really need to read the Bible.

…Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love. That is clearly the biblical view, and when Protestants and Catholics who know and believe the Bible discuss the issue sincerely, it is amazing how quickly and easily they come to understand and agree with each other on this, the fundamental divisive issue. Try it some time with your Protestant friend.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building… PETER KREEFT (see second link).
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The answer to that was previously given here, which you had conveniently ignored. In any case, quoting something out of context from a Catholic “professor” doesn’t cut it. Who is this “professor”? What is the basis of his claim? What are his arguments? Do Catholics agree that he has got the Catholic position right? Do Catholics really believe that they are saved by “good works” and “good intentions” alone, without the merits of Christ? I am not a Catholic; but it doesn’t seem to me to be the case. So why do you post this kind of trash? You just want to tick off Catholics or do you have some other motive?
 
benedictus2 said:
So therefore faith alone is not true for renewal of life is necesssary. And renewal of life is evidence by a flourishing of love, and love… is work. 🙂

And if Luther really believed what he wrote above, then why try to get rid of James? Why write “alone” when it is not in the original greek?

The Pope’s view is not consistent with Luther’s view (as if he needs to be consistent with Luther). The Pope’s view is consistent with what has always been the Church view.
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“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Luther

Would you agree that the pope is in agreement with the quote from Luther above?
 
Cr8ton said:
“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Luther

Would you agree that the pope is in agreement with the quote from Luther above?
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In it’s entirety not quite.

The way that sentence is phrased is in a cause and effect manner. If we are holy will be declared just. If we renew our life we will be forgiven, if we have real faith new obedience will grow.

The main thrust of the Pope’s message is Love. That to be in Christ is to Love
He goes: "Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love"
I doubt that the sanctification that Luther talks about is the love that Pope Benedict emphasizes. You cannot get that sense at all from what Luther has written. That is why protestants always emphasize justification but rarely ever talk about love. That God is love.

The second phrase “there is no forgiveness without renewal of life” is not quite in accord with the Pope’s statement. This statement presupposes “renewal of life” as a pre-requisite to forgiveness but this is not quite true. God forgives and this forgiveness is what brings on the “renewal of life”. Being forgiven, we are then caught up in Christ who is love and this love is what brings about the renewal of life.

On a last note.

Can we truly say that Luther had “real faith” since it seems the “fruits of new obedience” did not grow in him for it is by his disobedience that we now have the multitude of protestant denominations separated from the Body of Christ.

So no “FAITH ALONE IS NOT TRUE” because Luther’s doctrine did not carry the Pope’s very important caveat.
 
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