Defending the Church: Sexual Abuse Scandal

[Viki63]

I don’t think people quote those studies to show that though-they quote them to say “See? Other people are wrong too! Let’s talk about them instead.”

I quoted that study to point out that the problem is not specifically a Catholic problem, that it seems to be a human (or maybe cultural) problem.
It also points out that most of the sexual abuse by priests was of a homosexual type, of young men or teenagers, not of children. Not saying that’s not serious, but that it’s a different type of crime.

 

[conscience]

Trebor135: “Why should innocent people be held responsible for the evil choices of others who claim to follow the same faith when its doctrines do not accept or allow such misconduct?”

I didn’t address the crux of this argumentation because I thought it was one of the best arguments posted yet. Mind you, that shouldn’t be too difficult.

Personally, I would replace the words “held responsible” with “blamed”. For a Church is collectively responsible - when it emerges that one of its appointed priests has not been Chosen by God.

 

[fall_fox]

Start off by dropping the “anybody with a brain” thing. Insulting people who disagree with you won’t help.

Admit it’s a serious problem in the church-heck, the pope did that, you can to. Yes, it’s a minority of priests-but never, ever forget that abuse DID happen, and no, it can’t be swept under the rug.

fall fox

Our Beautiful Church is made up of fallible human beings, not saints. That being said, the Catholic Church is not a haven for pedophiles. As terrible as one child being molested is, our Church is on the low end of incidences that happened in institutions around the world. Teachers, coaches, parents, Ministers, and so on , all are in a higher bracket of incidences happening. The media just loves to try to bring the Catholic Church down. When it does happen in our Church, it drives me nuts when a Bishop has tried to help a priest that has a problem. Those priests may get legal help from the Church to defend himself. If it turns out to be true, he must stand alone and face his punishment. The Catholic Church has paid out millions upon millions to victims of abuse that she shouldn’t have had to pay, only because of some Bishop that made a ill-advised decision. If a person works for General Motors and molests a child, should General Motors be forced to pay?

By the way, what is a Catholic Mormon? Is that a Catholic that doesn’t believe in the Holy Trinity?

 

[fall_fox]

I haven’t seen that happen, but I’m **not ** saying it doesn’t (happen).

Regardless, I’ve seen many Catholics try to downplay real abuse cases by saying things like “oh, teachers/protestants/whatever” also have abuse problems. Well, yes, they do-but that doesn’t take away from the fact that terrible things happened with our church.

fall fox

We Catholics would appreciate a level bench mark, where all are judged by the same level of incrimination. It’s crazy to think that any Catholic thinks it’s not bad, of course it’s terrible. If you don’t realize though, that the Catholic Church is held to a higher standard by the media, you just haven’t been listening.

 

[ivory]

If you don’t realize though, that the Catholic Church is held to a higher standard by the media, you just haven’t been listening.

Unfortunately this is the case. Because Catholics claim (rightfully) that the Catholic Church is the only true Church, any mistake a Catholic makes will be scrutinized to no end. It’s tragic, because the media focus on the Catholic abuse cases has taken the public eye away from victims of sexual abuse elsewhere, in places like Protestant churches, public schools, and even within families.

Not to downplay the severity of the Church scandal, but I believe the malice being directed at anyone Catholic is unfair and unwarranted. Sexual abuse, whether it happen to children or adults, is a grave matter no matter where it happens. We should be working to prevent this from happening everywhere. Nobody deserves to suffer the trauma of sexual abuse.

Of course, it’s hard to explain this to people who seem hell-bent on bringing down the Catholic Church.

 

[Trebor135]

Trebor135: “Why should innocent people be held responsible for the evil choices of others who claim to follow the same faith when its doctrines do not accept or allow such misconduct?”

I didn’t address the crux of this argumentation because I thought it was one of the best arguments posted yet. Mind you, that shouldn’t be too difficult.

Personally, I would replace the words “held responsible” with “blamed”. For a Church is collectively responsible - when it emerges that one of its appointed priests has not been Chosen by God.

We’re basically in agreement, then. The church is a community, and when one member suffers, all suffer, whether directly or remotely. We should be expected to take an interest when some of the most vulnerable members of the community are harmed.

 

[Big_Dummy]

1. The church has lost creditability because of past sins of hiding child abuse.
2. The church is made of weeds and wheat, Jesus said so.
3. Today the church is under the spotlight to expose abuse.
4. Child abuse is a common problem among all religons and non-religious groups.
5. Emphasize what Christian groups are now doing to prevent child abuse.

Admiting the truth and pointing to the solution is the most honest answer one can give.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Unfortunately this is the case. Because Catholics claim (rightfully) that the Catholic Church is the only true Church, any mistake a Catholic makes will be scrutinized to no end. It’s tragic, because the media focus on the Catholic abuse cases has taken the public eye away from victims of sexual abuse elsewhere, in places like Protestant churches, public schools, and even within families.

Not to downplay the severity of the Church scandal, but I believe the malice being directed at anyone Catholic is unfair and unwarranted. Sexual abuse, whether it happen to children or adults, is a grave matter no matter where it happens. We should be working to prevent this from happening everywhere. Nobody deserves to suffer the trauma of sexual abuse.

Of course, it’s hard to explain this to people who seem hell-bent on bringing down the Catholic Church.

google.com/#hl=en&q=sexual+abuse+christian&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=750l3766l1l4813l10l2l0l0l0l0l813l1235l4-1.0.1l2l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=nws&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=41db3373e1167eb4&biw=1024&bih=498

Your brush is too narrow, fact is the media does focus on sexual abuse among protestants too.

 

[Langdell]

I wrote a long response that was eaten by the Net.

Here’s the short version: When I was wavering about the Church, I personally found it helpful to learn that child sexual abuse in the Church was not worse than in other organizations. Of course, that doesn’t excuse what some priests and some bishops have done, and of course, the Church should be better than other organizations. But at least it helped me see that this is not just a “Catholic problem.”

It also helped to learn about all the things the Church is doing to improve in this area. The website of the USCCB has a lot of good resources.

 

[jpjd]

As someone who is wanting to someday become an apologist, I want to know how best to refute the claim that the Catholic Church actively shelters “pedophile” priests.

It is difficult to refute the claim because the Church did indeed shelter “pedophile” priests, and did it for years, and did it with knowledge at upper levels of the hierarchy.

Regardless of anything we might say, people will have a hard time believing anything has changed, without seeing evidence that preventative measures are in place, are being followed, and are being truly supported by the hierarchy and the laity and not just going through the motions.

The best way to defend the Church is to admit that this was a serious problem in the Church, and then explain the measures that are being taken and the positive results that are coming out of it.

This is a situation where the Church absolutely must show results from its claims that it has changed, in order to convince people that wrongdoing is no longer happening.

 

[conscience]

Jpjd is spot on.

Here are the best ways to defend the Church.

1. Be open and admit there is a serious problem.
2. Explain the measures being taken by the Church.
3. Highlight the positive results coming from measures.
4. Just say that all the child abuse sickens and appals you.
5. As a Christian take responsibility for abuse in your Church.
6. Do not compare it to lesser issues in other churches like fraud.
7. Do not blame media and other churches as it doesn’t excuse abuse.

 

[Trebor135]

It is difficult to refute the claim because the Church did indeed shelter “pedophile” priests, and did it for years, and did it with knowledge at upper levels of the hierarchy.

Regardless of anything we might say, people will have a hard time believing anything has changed, without seeing evidence that preventative measures are in place, are being followed, and are being truly supported by the hierarchy and the laity and not just going through the motions.

I’d like to hear your response to the text I quoted in post #12.

 

[Trebor135]

Jpjd is spot on.

Here are the best ways to defend the Church.

…
6. Do not compare it to lesser issues in other churches like fraud.
…

I was the party that brought up financial fraud in Pentecostal churches, but I never equated this problem with child sexual abuse. Why do you counsel against doing something that hasn’t been advocated in this thread?

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I am not exactly sure what it is you want to defend. I suppose if someone is being hateful and simply vile then it should be a simple task of identifying them as such and realizing that some people want to be hateful and vile.

Just remember that every time you hear of the Church settling a suit the Chirch decided not to defend itself, so why should you? Also when you hear the amount of a settlement you can be sure that the number was arrived at because if it had gone to amjury the award would have been astronomical.

 

[catholicgamer]

Actually, I just finished up a debate about this at a gaming website. At this website, they have a separate forum thread for controversial topics. I’ve been at this website for 5+ years, and I finally took issue with the fact that the only child abuse stories that were mentioned were the ones where the perpetrators were Catholic Priests. I highlighted just 5 other stories of child abuse within the same week (…one involving 10000 children with street gangs…). I wanted to know why they seem to have two classes of abused children: 1) children who were abused by priests, and 2) ones that weren’t. Apparently…one set of children deserve to be discussed, and the others don’t.

Well…the hornets nest came up in full force and eventually accused me of being an accessory to child abuse. I’ve since left this community given the line that was crossed. Yes…I admitted there was a problem. Yes, I said those that abused kids were criminals. At the same time, I think I was justified at being angry that they ignore other cases of abuse.

Seems to me, that in my case, there are just some who find it morbidly “fun” to kick at the Catholic Church. Doesn’t matter how you go about it…I just think there are some that are convinced to kick you in the teeth no matter what you say to follow up and shed light on how the church is handling the situation.

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

Actually, I just finished up a debate about this at a gaming website. At this website, they have a separate forum thread for controversial topics. I’ve been at this website for 5+ years, and I finally took issue with the fact that the only child abuse stories that were mentioned were the ones where the perpetrators were Catholic Priests. I highlighted just 5 other stories of child abuse within the same week (…one involving 10000 children with street gangs…). I wanted to know why they seem to have two classes of abused children: 1) children who were abused by priests, and 2) ones that weren’t. Apparently…one set of children deserve to be discussed, and the others don’t.

Well…the hornets nest came up in full force and eventually accused me of being an accessory to child abuse. I’ve since left this community given the line that was crossed. Yes…I admitted there was a problem. Yes, I said those that abused kids were criminals. At the same time, I think I was justified at being angry that they ignore other cases of abuse.

Seems to me, that in my case, there are just some who find it morbidly “fun” to kick at the Catholic Church. Doesn’t matter how you go about it…I just think there are some that are convinced to kick you in the teeth no matter what you say to follow up and shed light on how the church is handling the situation.

Yes there are children abused by ministers in other demonimations. However what is unique and distinctly horrid about the Church Abuse Scandal is that despite knowledge of abuse, priests were merely reassigned and placed in positions where they could abuse again. The type of instituionalized criminal conduct that is at the core of the Church Abuse Scandal is precisely why the critics are entitled to be soo apparently mean spirited.

 

[cam1641]

Pointing to other abuse cases is simply making an excse in order to deflect the criticism of YOUR church.

Not cool. Deal with your issues. Catholics who resort to these tactics sound like little children. Well…Johnny did it too! Do you realize how it comesoff? Pathetic.

Bottom line is this. Your church behaved like a criminal organization…right from the top on down. Just wait until the garbage in Africa comes out. It will be very very ugly, potentially fatal to the RC church in the 1st world.

 

[catholicgamer]

Yes there are children abused by ministers in other demonimations. However what is unique and distinctly horrid about the Church Abuse Scandal is that despite knowledge of abuse, priests were merely reassigned and placed in positions where they could abuse again. The type of instituionalized criminal conduct that is at the core of the Church Abuse Scandal is precisely why the critics are entitled to be soo apparently mean spirited.

I agree that hiding it was terrible. Shouldn’t have been that way. That being said, I do remember reading that this was the norm in the 60’s and 70’s, in terms of how to handle abuse cases. In other words, all institutions were being advised at the time to handle abuse cases in this way. Am I mis-informed?

Giving perspective is essential in understanding any issue. I think it’s our responsibility as Catholics to say, a) “damn right it’s a problem…let’s address it and fix it”, and (b) to give perspective on how this fits into the over all picture of abuse and how it’s being addressed now. If no perspective is given, then…like it is now…every priest will be seen as an abuser of children. My issue is when it’s time to give that perspective in a conversation, we’re accused of defending child abuse. Is that fair? I say it isn’t.

 

[Trebor135]

Yes there are children abused by ministers in other demonimations. However what is unique and distinctly horrid about the Church Abuse Scandal is that despite knowledge of abuse, priests were merely reassigned and placed in positions where they could abuse again. The type of instituionalized criminal conduct that is at the core of the Church Abuse Scandal is precisely why the critics are entitled to be soo apparently mean spirited.

The Catholic Church’s response to the revelations of child sexual abuse is widely understood as a “cover-up” when this may very well be an inaccurate assessment of what took place. Not to sound like a broken record, but please read and consider post #12 of this thread. This meme must be laid to rest–or at the very least, it must not go unchallenged forever.

 

[fall_fox]

Trouble is, blaming the media, as well as other Churches, doesn’t help your arguments either.

fall fox

Don’t you think that it is a knee jerk reaction of Catholics to point that out? We are in no way condoning what has been done by these deranged priests, I think it is an attempt to protect our good and faithful priests. A friend of mine who happens to be a Priest told me that if he has dinner out with a man or a woman, he is thought of as being either gay or as having an affair, just because of the sexual abuse scandal. I would hate to live under this kind of suspicion when it has absolutely no basis in truth. Thats why we tend to point out the very low percentage of sexual deviate priests. Our Priests are to be admired for all they have devoted their lives for.
What is absolutely insane is the cover ups, for example the Bishop of Kansas City-St Joseph Mo… It was reported on Oct.14 2011 that he did not report a pedophile priest when he learned of the problem. He instructed this priest to move to a convent and stay away from children, the Priest didn’t, the Bishop put his trust in this priest that he would do as he was instructed. Now Bishop Finn has put himself in a position where he can be fined and possibly go to jail.
You hate to say that this Bishop is getting what he deserves, but it’s true.
Not only that, but he has now been the facilitator in handing out 10 million dollars to settle 47 lawsuits.
It would seem to me that Cardinal George of Chicago should have stepped in at that time.