Defending the creation story

[buffalo]

If you believe it to be completely literal witch is better Genesis 1 or 2, Similar but different. Both from different times in human history.

Read the link I posted - Toledoths of Genesis

 

[EBSSTF4]

I first heard it on a CD set of the Catechism presented by Father Robert Altier.

Then I found it printed out on John Martignoni’s notes for his talk: Catholics in the Bible.

Thanks for that link. I like the simplicity of the explinations.

Literal vs. Literalist interpretation, a very important designation

more direct link to explination

www.biblechristiansociety.com/booklets/Catholics%20and%20the%20Bible.doc

 

[EBSSTF4]

Pius XII vs.John Paul II vs. Benedict XVI?

None had an official stance on evolution as part of creation and gave us room to explore. The church has been working on this for 50+ years with no official stance.

 

[buffalo]

Pius XII vs.John Paul II vs. Benedict XVI?

None had an official stance on evolution as part of creation and gave us room to explore. The church has been working on this for 50+ years with no official stance.

Evolution is not new to the Church. She has defended herself from the beginning.

 

[EBSSTF4]

Evolution is not new to the Church. She has defended herself from the beginning.

CCC

317 God alone created the universe, freely, directly and without any help

This is the point to defend.

 

[buffalo]

CCC

317 God alone created the universe, freely, directly and without any help

This is the point to defend.

That’s it?

None of these Dogmas?

The Divine Work of Creation

The Doctrine of Revelation Regarding Man or “Christian Anthropology”

  The first man was created by God. (De fide.)

  The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)

  Man consists of two essential parts--a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)

  The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)

  Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)

  Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)

  A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)

  The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)

  God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)

  Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)

  The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

  The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)

  The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)

  The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)

  Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)

  Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)

  Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)

  Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.

  Adam's sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)

  Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)

  Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)

  In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)

Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

 

[EBSSTF4]

CCC

317 God alone created the universe, freely, directly and without any help

This is the point to defend.

That is not a question. The question is how?

Pope John Paul II
“New scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.”
“truth cannot contradict truth.”

(Yes I know I have used both quotes before, I just like them)

Science cannot contradict the Church. Both are compatible.

This will be my last post on the subject; I respected Pope John Paul II, and have a hard time with how you know better than he did.

 

[buffalo]

That is not a question. The question is how?

Pope John Paul II
“New scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.”
“truth cannot contradict truth.”

(Yes I know I have used both quotes before, I just like them)

Science cannot contradict the Church. Both are compatible.

This will be my last post on the subject; I respected Pope John Paul II, and have a hard time with how you know better than he did.

The Pope ruled out atheistic evolution.

And I respect him too.

One of my favorite sayings is: “God may have just inserted Adam into the timeline wherever He wishes regardless of what may have been happening in the environment at the time.” In that case science will never be able to say anything about it.

In addition evolution must reconcile Eve coming from Adam.

Good reading: Evolution and the Magisterium

…The note that the convergence of scientific discoveries bearing on evolution was “neither sought nor fabricated” struck many non-evolutionists as naive, but in this case the Pope was expressing a personal assessment and not a matter of Catholic doctrine. It is also undeniable that this convergence constitutes an argument in favor of evolution; whether it is a good argument or a bad argument is a separate question.

The Holy Father went on to note that “a theory’s validity depends on whether or not it can be verified; it is constantly tested against the facts; whenever it can no longer explain the latter, it shows its limitations and unsuitability. It must then be rethought” (ibid.). He means here that, although mainstream science has elevated evolution from a hypothesis to a theory, it still must be open to the fact that further data may require the whole thing to be rethought.

He also noted: “And to tell the truth, rather than the theory of evolution, we should speak of several theories of evolution” (ibid.). Thus, all theories of evolution cannot be true.

…he fact is that at this juncture it does not look like evolution can be a subject of Catholic teaching. The reason has to do with its relationship to the deposit of faith (Scripture and Tradition).

Basically, a scientific claim can have one of three basic relations with the sources of faith: (1) It can be required by them, (2) It can be precluded by them, or (w) It can be free with respect to them.

A scientific claim can be required by the sources of faith because (a) it is directly taught in them or (b) it is needed to protect a truth that is taught in the deposit of faith. An example is that the world has a beginning, that it does not go back forever in time.

Similarly, a scientific claim also can be precluded by the sources of faith because (a) they directly teach it to be false or (b) its falsity must be recognized to protect something else they teach. An example would be the idea that the universe extends back infinitely in time.

Matters that do not fall into either of the above categories are free with respect to the sources of faith, and they must stand or fall on their own scientific merits. As the Pope pointed out in his address, new data accumulates with time, so such claims may seem to stand at one time, fall at another, then get up and stumble again later.

However that plays out, Catholic doctrine is unconcerned because the sources of faith neither require nor preclude them. They are apart from the faith and the Church’s ability to pronounce on them.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

OK, thank you, my friend.

You were being rather vague there.

Here’s what we, as Catholics, hold true with the Creation Story:

                    1. The creation of all things out of nothing by God at the beginning of time (including the creation of time).
                      2. The special creation of man.
                      3. The creation of woman from man.
                      4. All of humanity is descended from an original pair of human beings - i.e. Adam and Eve.
                      5. Adam and Eve were created in an original state of holiness, justice, and immortality.
                      6. A divine command was laid upon man to prove his obedience to God [do not eat from the tree…] 
                      7. The transgression of that Divine Command at the instigation of Satan.  
                    8. The loss of the state of holiness, justice, and immortality of our 1st parents [because of their disobedience, Adam and Eve were kicked out of Paradise].
                      9. The promise of a future Redeemer, a Savior [Genesis 3:15, the protoevangelium, the first “good news”]. Reference: Denzinger: #2123

Hey,

I, as a non-catholic, agree with you Another point catholics and protestant agree on YEAH :dancing:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Thanks. Sorry, didn’t mean to be vauge. I was paraphrasing a famous quote by Elle Weisel (sp?). I think we could have a long discussion about each of those points and how our respective faiths view them.

Hi,

I thought the Jewish people believed everything in the OT. I thought it was just the NT they dont believe. The OT was written by Jewish people.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi,

I thought the Jewish people believed everything in the OT. I thought it was just the NT they dont believe. The OT was written by Jewish people.

Our Jewish brothers understand that the OT is written in various styles. When interpreting it, they try and get what the author is trying to convey, rather than what the literalist translation is.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hey,

I, as a non-catholic, agree with you Another point catholics and protestant agree on YEAH :dancing:

Correction: Another point Catholics and SOME Protestants agree on (which is still awesome!!!).

We’ve still got some groups that insist that the world was created in 6 days, and is now only 6000 years old. The Church is silent on this issue, allowing some to believe this theory, and others to believe in evolution with a guiding Hand.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Correction: Another point Catholics and SOME Protestants agree on (which is still awesome!!!).

We’ve still got some groups that insist that the world was created in 6 days, and is now only 6000 years old. The Church is silent on this issue, allowing some to believe this theory, and others to believe in evolution with a guiding Hand.

Hi,

I have to be honest with you I also believe in the 6 days young earth theory simply because it makes total sense to me. But, at the same time I dont think it matters in the scheme of things. My objection is to become more Christ-like not to argue how old the earth is. It doesnt make or break my salvation which way I believe.

Oh well I guess it would be impossible to all agree. It wouldnt be human LOL

 

[Texas_Roofer]

How do you respond to something like this:

"If incest is a sin then think about this. If God created Adam and Eve and the earth’s population came from them, wouldn’t their kids have to sleep with eachother in order for the population to grow? And what about Noah’s Ark. If the world flooded and killed everthing on the planet and the only thing left alive were the animals on the Ark and Noah’s family, then wouldn’t Noah’s family have to sleep with eachother in order to get the population back up.

Adam’s children yes, Noah’s children no. It was not a sin at the time of Adam’s children, and it was God’s design. Remember Seth was born when Adam was 130 so by the time of Adam and Eves death there were probably hundreds of descendents.

*When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth

Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters.

Then Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him entered the ark because of the water of the flood*

I take it that when the bible said that we are all born in sin is because we are all inbred."

No

but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die

 

[Valke2]

As a Catholic you do, on that point.

The Toledoths of Genesis

You are required to believe that all the world is under 6,000 years old and that all humankind is the offspring of Noah’s family? You can’t view those stories as…stories, designed to teach biblical truths?

 

[buffalo]

You are required to believe that all the world is under 6,000 years old and that all humankind is the offspring of Noah’s family? You can’t view those stories as…stories, designed to teach biblical truths?

Genesis does not state that the world is 6000 years old. Usher calculated it based on geneologies. Newer calculations say around 10,000 years. So it defintely has to be older than that.

I believe we can be open about the age of the earth. Faith and reason cannot be opposed. Sometimes we have to work harder to unlock the truth.

**56 **After the unity of the human race was shattered by sin God at once sought to save humanity part by part. The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the “nations”, in other words, towards men grouped “in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations”.

71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. Gen 9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.

 

[buffalo]

You are required to believe that all the world is under 6,000 years old and that all humankind is the offspring of Noah’s family? You can’t view those stories as…stories, designed to teach biblical truths?

Genesis does not state that the world is 6000 years old. Usher calculated it based on geneologies. Newer calculations say around 10,000 years. So it defintely has to be older than that.

I believe we can be open about the age of the earth. Faith and reason cannot be opposed. Sometimes we have to work harder to unlock the truth.

**56 **After the unity of the human race was shattered by sin God at once sought to save humanity part by part. The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the “nations”, in other words, towards men grouped “in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations”.

71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. Gen 9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.