Defending the Rosary

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Ok I’ll do whatever Jesus told me.
He never said pray to Mary
We don’t pray to Mary.

We believe that she is in the Communion of Saints, and can intercede for us. I ask her to pray with and for me. Calling on her is not praying to her. Asking her to “pray for us sinners” is not praying to her. Together, she and I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus her son. It’s as if you and I agreed in prayer.

I think this has been explained to you elsewhere. :confused: Repeatedly.
 
We don’t pray to Mary.

We believe that she is in the Communion of Saints, and can intercede for us. I ask her to pray with and for me. Calling on her is not praying to her. Asking her to “pray for us sinners” is not praying to her. Together, she and I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus her son. It’s as if you and I agreed in prayer.

I think this has been explained to you elsewhere. :confused: Repeatedly.
So now saying Hail Marys are not prayers. Are you sure. This is the first I’m hearing of this. And when you say a rosary you are not praying?
 
So now saying Hail Marys are not prayers. Are you sure. This is the first I’m hearing of this. And when you say a rosary you are not praying?
  1. Would you please read my previous posts. I have already answered your questions in Posts 31 and 32 of this thread. You have asked for the same consideration from others, and we should reasonably expect the same in return.
  2. I know that you don’t like cut-and-paste, but I put a lot of work into my earlier heartfelt answer.
From #31:
The first half of the Hail Mary is taken directly from scripture. In repeating it, it’s like reciting the two fundamental bible passages about Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)


The directly scriptural part of the prayer explains why we are saying it:
  • We repeat the words as in a conversation to Mary, getting her attention.
  • We are reaffirming the specific scriptures on which the doctrine of Mary is built (i.e. full of grace meant that she was born w/out original sin), and therefore she is a powerful intercessor, and worth to ask for her aid in our petition.
  • We are using scripture to announce why we’re going to ask for her intercession in the next sentence, because as the Mother of Jesus, she must have more “sway.”
From #32:
The second part of the prayer asks for May’s intercession, which gets into communion of the saints. (There’s plenty of resources on that in the archives about the Communion of Saints.) Every time we ask a saint to intercede for us, we’re asking them to pray on our behalf: we are not asking for them to exercise their own power. [Edited to add from #31: A saint doesn’t have power to “make” something happen. Every miracle that happens through a saint’s intercession comes directly from God’s power, but the saint helped you to ask God.]

Ultimately, the concluding prayer of the rosary offers the entire prayer to God, the petitions to Mary and the meditations directly on the life of Christ in the Mysteries:

*"O God, whose only begotten Son, *
*by his life, death and resurrection, has purchased for us the blessings of eternal life, *
*grant we beseech thee, *
*that by meditating on the mysteries of the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, *
*we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, *
through Christ our Lord. Amen."
  1. Now, there are 2 kinds of “prayer.” Dulia and hyperdulia. Dulia isn’t prayer, proper. It’s a conversation with someone who is in Heaven. It is asking for someone to pray with you or for you whether they are alive, such as you and I, or whether someone is dead on earth and alive in heaven, which is called the Communion of Saints.
Mary is in the Communion of Saints. There is no worship (hyperdulia) involved. For example, if I called you on the phone and asked, “Please pray for me,” I am not praying to you to ask for your prayers on my behalf. Likewise, if I call to Mary in heaven, I am not praying to her, but I am asking her for her help.

Now, since a saint is dead on earth and alive in heaven, people confuse that with prayer. But it’s not prayer as in worship. Hyperdulia, worshipful prayer, is when a person living on earth, either alone or with the intercession of Mary or a saint, places a petition or thanksgiving before God alone.

We use the umbrella term of “prayer” when we’re talking to someone in Heaven. It’s a deficiency in the English language that we do not have seperate words for “asking someone in heaven to pray on our behalf (dulia)” and “praying to God directly (hyperdulia).” People associate that talking to anyone in Heaven is prayer.

Does that help clarify the term “prayer” for you? The two distinctions are very important. I know I’ve covered a lot and it’s getting late; I’ll check in tommorow.
 
  1. Would you please read my previous posts. I have already answered your questions in Posts 31 and 32 of this thread. You have asked for the same consideration from others, and we should reasonably expect the same in return.
  2. I know that you don’t like cut-and-paste, but I put a lot of work into my earlier heartfelt answer.
From #31:

From #32:
  1. Now, there are 2 kinds of “prayer.” Dulia and hyperdulia. Dulia isn’t prayer, proper. It’s a conversation with someone who is in Heaven. It is asking for someone to pray with you or for you whether they are alive, such as you and I, or whether someone is dead on earth and alive in heaven, which is called the Communion of Saints.
Mary is in the Communion of Saints. There is no worship (hyperdulia) involved. For example, if I called you on the phone and asked, “Please pray for me,” I am not praying to you to ask for your prayers on my behalf. Likewise, if I call to Mary in heaven, I am not praying to her, but I am asking her for her help.

Now, since a saint is dead on earth and alive in heaven, people confuse that with prayer. But it’s not prayer as in worship. Hyperdulia, worshipful prayer, is when a person living on earth, either alone or with the intercession of Mary or a saint, places a petition or thanksgiving before God alone.

We use the umbrella term of “prayer” when we’re talking to someone in Heaven. It’s a deficiency in the English language that we do not have seperate words for “asking someone in heaven to pray on our behalf (dulia)” and “praying to God directly (hyperdulia).” People associate that talking to anyone in Heaven is prayer.

Does that help clarify the term “prayer” for you? The two distinctions are very important. I know I’ve covered a lot and it’s getting late; I’ll check in tommorow.
Thank you for retyping that. I wasn’t chatting with you around post 31 so I never read it.
So you are not praying to Mary the prayers are called dulia.
Is this concept in the catechism?
If so what paragraph?
 
We don’t pray to Mary.

We believe that she is in the Communion of Saints, and can intercede for us. I ask her to pray with and for me. Calling on her is not praying to her. Asking her to “pray for us sinners” is not praying to her. Together, she and I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus her son. It’s as if you and I agreed in prayer.

I think this has been explained to you elsewhere. :confused: Repeatedly.
How do you know she hears your dulia?
 
Is this concept in the catechism?
If so what paragraph?
From scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
From paragraphs 2673 onward…
In communion with the holy Mother of God
2673 In prayer the Holy Spirit unites us to the person of the only Son, in his glorified humanity, through which and in which our filial prayer unites us in the Church with the Mother of Jesus.
2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son “who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties.” Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she “shows the way” (hodigitria), and is herself “the Sign” of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.
2675 Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.
This goes on through paragraph 2679. To summarize:
2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners.”
2681 “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’, except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor 12:3). The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.
2682 Because of Mary’s singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.
Hope this helps.🙂
 
Is this concept in the catechism?
If so what paragraph?
In addition to the links from Church Militant and Tonks, it’s also in the CCC,The Profession of Faith, Section Two, The Profession of Christian Faith, Chapter Three, Article 9, 946 - 962.
Here are a few highlights:
947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."481

948 The term “communion of saints” therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and “among holy persons (sancti).”

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:
Oh, and it’s in the Apostles Creed:
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
 
Miss lollipops,

are you really and truly trying to fool us or yourself? Your tactic of bait and switch is not successful.

You made the comment that “vain repetition” is unScriptural and attempted to substantiate it by quoting Scripture; inappropriately, one might add.

You were then presented with Scriptures from the Psalms (Psalm 136) and from Revelation (Rev 4:8, emphasis on “Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: Holy, holy, holy is the Lord god almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”) which are examples of Scriptural prayers.

Ignoring these, you change your comments to “I do not pray to Mary.”

We know you don’t–this is your belief and your choice. And we wish you well. But praying to Mary is not the point of this particular snippet in the dialogue. Repetitious prayer is the point. A point you brought up in choosing to post Mt. 6:7 as a charge against Catholic practice.

You were soundly rebutted.

However, we are back to your choice of rhetorical tactics: when proven incorrect, you resort to bait and switch.

A fruitless tactic in Sales and in Dialogue.
 
Why repetition? Repetition helps slow down the mind and improves the meditative process.
See #26 for my post on helping maintain focus on a speific mystery. There will be dry periods of prayer in which I physically do not experience anything.
When I say “Emmanuel” as I meditate on the Nativity, I recognize God is with us here and now.
“Messiah” as Jesus proclaims the gospel recalls his own words–“I have been anointed to bring good news, to give sight to the blind, to release the prisoners.”
I have physically felt the weight lifted from my shoulders as I pray “taking my cross,” and the forgiveness of sins on “crucified.”
At the Ascension, He is “Lord of Lords,” taking his place at the right hand of the Father. At the Coronation of Mary, He is “Prince of Peace.”
A different prayer taken from Scripture is the Jesus Prayer. Repeating, “Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me, a sinner,” leads a person into even deeper meditation until the person praying comes to a point of deep communion with God; he has entered contemplative prayer.
After the rosary, it is possible to reach that contemplative state. It is the repetition of the prayers while meditating on the life of Christ that brings this possibility to fruition.
 
Meditation the Key

First we must understand that they are meditations. When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. If they merely recite the prayers, whether vocally or silently, they’re missing the essence of the rosary. It isn’t just a recitation of prayers, but a meditation on the grace of God. Critics, not knowing about the meditation part, imagine the rosary must be boring, uselessly repetitious, meaningless, and their criticism carries weight if you reduce the rosary to a formula. Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is “His mercy endures forever.” Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God.

It is the meditation on the mysteries that gives the rosary its staying power. The Joyful Mysteries are these: the Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38), the Visitation (Luke 1:40-56), the Nativity (Luke 2:6-20), the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:21-39), and the Finding of the child Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:41-51).

Then come the Sorrowful Mysteries: the Agony in the Garden (Matt. 26:36-46), the Scourging (Matt. 27:26), the Crowning with Thorns (Matt. 27:29), the Carrying of the Cross (John 19:17), and the Crucifixion (Luke 23:33-46).

The final Mysteries are the Glorious: the Resurrection (Luke 24:1-12), the Ascension (Luke 24:50-51), the Descent of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4), the Assumption of Mary into heaven (Rev. 12), and her Coronation (cf. Rev. 12:1).

With the exception of the last two, each mystery is explicitly scriptural. True, the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are not explicitly stated in the Bible, but they are not contrary to it, so there is no reason to reject them out of hand. Given the scriptural basis of most of the mysteries, it’s little wonder that many Protestants, once they understand the meditations that are the essence of the rosary, happily take it up as a devotion. We’ve looked at the prayers found in the rosary and the mysteries around which it is formed. Now let’s see how it was formed historically.

The Secret of Paternoster Row

It’s commonly said that St. Dominic, the founder of the Order of Preachers (the Dominicans), instituted the rosary. Not so. Certain parts of the rosary predated Dominic; others arose only after his death.

Centuries before Dominic, monks had begun to recite all 150 psalms on a regular basis. As time went on, it was felt that the lay brothers, known as the conversi, should have some form of prayer of their own. They were distinct from the choir monks, and a chief distinction was that they were illiterate. Since they couldn’t read the psalms, they couldn’t recite them with the monks. They needed an easily remembered prayer.

The prayer first chosen was the Our Father, and, depending on circumstances, it was said either fifty or a hundred times. These conversi used rosaries to keep count, and the rosaries were known then as Paternosters (“Our Fathers”).

In England there arose a craftsmen’s guild of some importance, the members of which made these rosaries. In London you can find a street, named Paternoster Row, which preserves the memory of the area where these craftsmen worked.

The rosaries that originally were used to count Our Fathers came to be used, during the twelfth century, to count Hail Marys—or, more properly, the first half of what we now call the Hail Mary. (The second half was added some time later.)

Both Catholics and non-Catholics, as they learn more about the rosary and make more frequent use of it, come to see how its meditations bring to mind the sweet fragrance not only of the Mother of God, but of Christ himself.

from catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp
 
Miss lollipops,

are you really and truly trying to fool us or yourself? Your tactic of bait and switch is not successful.

You made the comment that “vain repetition” is unScriptural and attempted to substantiate it by quoting Scripture; inappropriately, one might add.

You were then presented with Scriptures from the Psalms (Psalm 136) and from Revelation (Rev 4:8, emphasis on “Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: Holy, holy, holy is the Lord god almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”) which are examples of Scriptural prayers.

Ignoring these, you change your comments to “I do not pray to Mary.”

We know you don’t–this is your belief and your choice. And we wish you well. But praying to Mary is not the point of this particular snippet in the dialogue. Repetitious prayer is the point. A point you brought up in choosing to post Mt. 6:7 as a charge against Catholic practice.

You were soundly rebutted.

However, we are back to your choice of rhetorical tactics: when proven incorrect, you resort to bait and switch.

A fruitless tactic in Sales and in Dialogue.
Hear, hear.

Another disingenuous thread exposed. :tsktsk:

The challenge to repetition has been answered and overcome.

The rest is anti-Marian propaganda.
 
Hear, hear.

Another disingenuous thread exposed. :tsktsk:
Not the whole thread, per se. The OP 's inital question was, “that we aren’t putting Mary in a higher regard than God by doing ten Hail Marys for each Lord’s Prayer?”

The later joiners admittedly didn’t join the conversation until later, and didn’t bother to read what was posted already. 🤷
 
When I pray the Rosary, I pray it with Mary and Jesus and the angels and saints. It’s my own heavenly prayer group. Ever get together with friends and pray? It’s the same thing, only we can do this any place, any time.

Imagine sitting in the midst of the saints, the angels hovering overhead, as you lay your head in Mary’s lap, all of you looking at Jesus who sits at the Right Hand of the Father with the Holy Spirit enveloping you all.

For me, I find that when I pray the Rosary I spend much more time in prayer than if I do only spontaneous prayer by itself. I add spontaneous prayer to the Rosary as I begin each decade for intentions that are suited to each mystery and for those who come to mind and those I’ve promised to pray for. I can often go from 25 - 60 minutes praying one 5-decade Rosary. If I rely on my own weak intellect to pray for an hour, I’ll fail miserably. By using Scripture to pray (which is what the Rosary is), I’m using the very Word of God to pray. What could be better?
 
The rosary is a very useful tool. Some tend to think that tithing is limited to income only. Just God blesses one with a bountiful harvest or bountiful wages, God also blesses one with life.

God gives a person 24 hours of precious life in a day. It only fitting that one give a tithe of that precious life back to God in prayer. Give God 2.4 hours back in prayerful worship every day?

That is a tough cookie for most to swallow even in light of scripture that says we should be praying continuously…
 
How could you meditate on something AND say a prayer to someone else at the same time anyway.
You would have to be either thinking of the mysteries OR saying a Hail Mary. Not both at the same time right?
Wrong.

Give it a try, I’m betting you can do it too.

“The first Glorious mystery: The Ressurection - The Reason for our Faith”.

Now while “meditating” on this mystery say the ten Hail Mary’s.

With your eyes closed, can you not picture our Lord Risen from the Tomb?

I think you will find the Hail Mary quickly becom a nice “montra” to which you can meditate very effectively on the mystery.

Chuck
 
Originally Posted by misslollipops forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
How could you meditate on something AND say a prayer to someone else at the same time anyway.
You would have to be either thinking of the mysteries OR saying a Hail Mary. Not both at the same time right?
That would like a boss saying:

:mad: 'YOU CAN’T LISTEN TO THE RADIO AND WORK AT THE SAME TIME" :mad:

It just amazes me how people come up with this stuff !:confused:

Maybe Catholics invented MULTI-TASKING?:hmmm:
 
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