F
FuzzyBunny116
Guest
How does one defend free will against claims that actions are all simply decided by upbringing, culture, genetics, (which I believe is determinism) etc?
- Status
N
ncgolf
Guest
Wow I am off the hook … nothing I do wrong is my fault. If you look at modern culture this is exaclty the mindset. To acknowledge free will you have to acknowledge sin (the misuse of free will). The acknowledgment of sin is not popular because it induces guilt and harms self esteem. In my opinion if no discussion of sin is brought into the equation then the defense will be short.
During Mass remember the prayer where the line is …" I have sinned through my own fault. In my thoughts, in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do". How opposite is modern day view of actions versus the Catholic view. An honest Catholic says I did these things not because of culture, genetics but only because I chose to do it.
I hope others join as this is a fertile topic.
T
tm30
Guest
Tendencies are certainly influenced by your environment. Some may tend to a life of crime because that is the only world they know. Pulling the trigger, however, is your free will decision and entirely subject to, at the very least, the laws of God written on every man’s heart.
M
mlchance
Guest
The very fact that people seek to argue for or against free will demonstrates that, at the very least, everyone involved in the conversation really believes we have free will. Otherwise, what is the point of arguing?
– Mark L. Chance.
– Mark L. Chance.
F
FuzzyBunny116
Guest
What if they believe that they are doing so as influenced by cultural factors, and they argue for free will in order to get rid of any responsibility they or others might have for their actions?
I saw someone word my thoughts this way.
"There is no freedom of choice since all your choices are influenced completely and utterly. Hence there is no freedom of will only a conscious being who sees the outcome of an event in which there perception could not foretell.
We are all slaves to causality, how can it be any other way?"
M
mlchance
Guest
But that doesn’t make sense. If all choices are “completely and utterly” influenced by Factor X, then how is it that the person chooses to argue the proposition? How is it that he is consciously aware of making choices? How is that other people do the same thing? How is that people choose to act against Factor X? As to the last question, the answer is, “By choosing otherwise.”
IOW, no one can intelligently argue against free will. The very argument itself implicitly presupposes the initial proposition is false.
– Mark L. Chance.
H
Hastrman
Guest
I can think of a lot of answers, most of them involving sudden, random violence. 
Also, of course, you can simply tell anyone arguing determinism that their argument is invalid because it was determined. After you do that a couple of times, they’ll start to think of their own arguments for free will just to make themselves feel better (and to shut you up). Or they’ll go away, which is good too.
Free will is one of those things like the reality of matter that only lunatics really doubt, but shallow people love to throw doubts on to make themselves look cool.
Also, of course, you can simply tell anyone arguing determinism that their argument is invalid because it was determined. After you do that a couple of times, they’ll start to think of their own arguments for free will just to make themselves feel better (and to shut you up). Or they’ll go away, which is good too.
Free will is one of those things like the reality of matter that only lunatics really doubt, but shallow people love to throw doubts on to make themselves look cool.
F
FuzzyBunny116
Guest
What if they choose to act against it based on other influences?
I know this sounds silly, I guess you’ve just thrown me for a loop (which is good) and I’m just trying to play the Devil’s Advocate as best I can.
S
Spirit_Driven
Guest
Man has a Will and he can be very Will full.
You can choose A or B… but God provided A and B for you to choose from… over simplified perhaps… but to demonstrate that we only think we have Free Will.
God is always in control, imagine yourself as a Gold Fish in a Bowl, you can swim left and right and go to and fro, the Gold fish does not have the intelligence to comprehend the limitations of the circumstances it is in.
We are even lower than Gold fish by the way, we are Clay.
Imagine millions of clay vessels walking around, each one with a hand still shaping it, directing it.
People think that because the arm and hand of God are invisble to us that he has left town…
The Doctrine of Free Will is a Doctrine of the Demon… designed to have people boasting before God that they saved themselves by an act of their own Free Will.
The Reality is… All of Man kind and all of Creation is already reconciled back to God at the Cross… from here on in… it is just a matter of time before all come to the relisation of this simple truth… sooner for some later for others.
Peace
You can choose A or B… but God provided A and B for you to choose from… over simplified perhaps… but to demonstrate that we only think we have Free Will.
God is always in control, imagine yourself as a Gold Fish in a Bowl, you can swim left and right and go to and fro, the Gold fish does not have the intelligence to comprehend the limitations of the circumstances it is in.
We are even lower than Gold fish by the way, we are Clay.
Imagine millions of clay vessels walking around, each one with a hand still shaping it, directing it.
People think that because the arm and hand of God are invisble to us that he has left town…
The Doctrine of Free Will is a Doctrine of the Demon… designed to have people boasting before God that they saved themselves by an act of their own Free Will.
The Reality is… All of Man kind and all of Creation is already reconciled back to God at the Cross… from here on in… it is just a matter of time before all come to the relisation of this simple truth… sooner for some later for others.
Peace
N
ncgolf
Guest
So you choose … the concept of free will does not hinge on the number of choices just the choice. In your example God allows for A (good) and B (evil). You get to choose … I know I have a choice and am free to choose either.
God has given us a glimpse so we can have some understanding of the Father. You must then deny Jesus and Sacred Scripture to make your statement. Those are the mechnasims God has given us into his essence. Complain to him that they are not enough.
Free will only asserts that we freely choose to by servants of God … and this only by God’s grace. Catholic doctrine does not say we save ourselves.
M
Malcolm_McLean
Guest
Everyone has a set of assumptions given them by society. The very intelligent or very well-educated are sometimes aware of some of these. However even very sophisticated people fall prey to intellectual fashion, all of the time.
Generally these are underpinned by economics. For instance when I was young much was made of the sacredness of the right to strike. The economy has changed, and though workers are generally much worse treated now than in the 1970s, no one any longer believes that you are bringing about a better society by striking over pension rights,
Wherher ultimately you have any choices, or whether free will is an illusion, or whether, as Marx said, you have free will but it is of no real importance - “Men [sic] make history, but in circumstances not of their choosing” - is really a big question. I’d suggest that Marx is right in so far as you cannot establish an American Workers’ collective and, long term, stop the flow of manufacturing to China. He wrong is the sense that what really matters is not whether the collective is a success or not, but the way you go about establishing it
M
mlchance
Guest
But that’s nothing but guess work. It’s a God-of-the-gaps argument, which ultimately isn’t any kind of argument at all. In essence, the arguer is simply saying, “There is no free will. Everything is conditioned because everything is conditioned.” It’s yet more nonsense.
– Mark L. Chance.
S
Spirit_Driven
Guest
Free will only asserts that we freely choose to be servants of God … and this only by God’s grace. Catholic doctrine does not say we save ourselves
Actualy God chooses us…By His doing you are in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).
So you choose … the concept of free will does not hinge on the number of choices just the choice. In your example God allows for A (good) and B (evil). You get to choose … I know I have a choice and am free to choose either
Not at all… God is in control of your life at all times, with out him you would not be here in the first place…
The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps (Proverbs 16:9).
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33).
Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established (Proverbs 19:21).
Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24
God has given us a glimpse so we can have some understanding of the Father. You must then deny Jesus and Sacred Scripture to make your statement. Those are the mechnasims God has given us into his essence. Complain to him that they are not enough.
I would never deny the Soverignty of God over all things, we are still all earth bound however…
So you choose … the concept of free will does not hinge on the number of choices just the choice. In your example God allows for A (good) and B (evil). You get to choose … I know I have a choice and am free to choose either.
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33).
Peace
Actualy God chooses us…By His doing you are in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).
So you choose … the concept of free will does not hinge on the number of choices just the choice. In your example God allows for A (good) and B (evil). You get to choose … I know I have a choice and am free to choose either
Not at all… God is in control of your life at all times, with out him you would not be here in the first place…
The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps (Proverbs 16:9).
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33).
Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established (Proverbs 19:21).
Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24
God has given us a glimpse so we can have some understanding of the Father. You must then deny Jesus and Sacred Scripture to make your statement. Those are the mechnasims God has given us into his essence. Complain to him that they are not enough.
I would never deny the Soverignty of God over all things, we are still all earth bound however…
So you choose … the concept of free will does not hinge on the number of choices just the choice. In your example God allows for A (good) and B (evil). You get to choose … I know I have a choice and am free to choose either.
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33).
Peace
J
jman507
Guest
You sir are wrong. I’ve been predetermined to disgregard your excuse, and end this post with an angry smilie.
J
jman507
Guest
Actually, I don’t think you can really prove it or disprove it determinism vs. free will, anymore than one can prove or disprove matter is real, in the context of Truth.
But saying that genetics, upbringing and culture determine how one acts seems to put the whole thing in a too simplistic model that misses a lot of what is going on. Certainly genetics like an inherited personality and temperament, one’s upbringing and the who one is around certainly does determine quite a lot,but as one grows older and more mature, a person can make a lot of chooses about how they manipulate their personality and temperament to fit a situation. One can chose how to interact with a culture, and what sort of niche. One gets more control of their upbringing as they grow older.
Genetics give you a certain blue print, but what develops from those blue prints has some influence over the person with them. One can work hard to develop some parts. For every gold medal Olympic winner, there probably are millions with better genetics, but if you don’t put the time in, the talent will never grow into the skill and ability to win. There are many things that can mutate those genetics.
When it comes to culture, I guess certainly someone from the West may think differently than one from the East because of it. At the same time there are lots of different niches in each culture. The macro-culture can influence the micro-culture, but the micro-culture also influences the micro-culture.
I guess you might want to think of it as, if you want to change the world, change your country. If you want to change the country change you community. If you want to change the community change your family. If you want to change your family change yourself.
If they want to say your upbringing determines how you are, just think if your a parent you could range from being overly aggressive to overly passive and those might have a lot of influences on the child. I personally don’t think you are predetermined but could actually make a plan on taking any approach in the spectrum. IMHO surprise surprise, I think you might have just broke the deterministic chain.
But saying that genetics, upbringing and culture determine how one acts seems to put the whole thing in a too simplistic model that misses a lot of what is going on. Certainly genetics like an inherited personality and temperament, one’s upbringing and the who one is around certainly does determine quite a lot,but as one grows older and more mature, a person can make a lot of chooses about how they manipulate their personality and temperament to fit a situation. One can chose how to interact with a culture, and what sort of niche. One gets more control of their upbringing as they grow older.
Genetics give you a certain blue print, but what develops from those blue prints has some influence over the person with them. One can work hard to develop some parts. For every gold medal Olympic winner, there probably are millions with better genetics, but if you don’t put the time in, the talent will never grow into the skill and ability to win. There are many things that can mutate those genetics.
When it comes to culture, I guess certainly someone from the West may think differently than one from the East because of it. At the same time there are lots of different niches in each culture. The macro-culture can influence the micro-culture, but the micro-culture also influences the micro-culture.
I guess you might want to think of it as, if you want to change the world, change your country. If you want to change the country change you community. If you want to change the community change your family. If you want to change your family change yourself.
If they want to say your upbringing determines how you are, just think if your a parent you could range from being overly aggressive to overly passive and those might have a lot of influences on the child. I personally don’t think you are predetermined but could actually make a plan on taking any approach in the spectrum. IMHO surprise surprise, I think you might have just broke the deterministic chain.
- Status