Defense of the abortion/Discussion about Ethics

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Nonatheist said:
Yes, but killing an animal wouldn’t.

Meat is just a byproduct of killing an animal, eating meat is not immoral but the act of getting meat in many cases is
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Just to confirm, eating meat would be OK if the animal died of natural causes?
 
Yes, only the act of killing and causing pain can be wrong.
 
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If human was dead, than l wouldn’t have a moral problem.
Though if a family friend of dead person doesn’t allow you to eat them, l think it would be more moral not to eat it. But l didn’t think much about social elements.
 
Elf01 said:
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Freddy:
You don’t think it matters to understand why women have abortions?

If you don’t understand the reasons then how on earth can you possibly claim a place at the table where people are looking for solutions?
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Thos topic is on the morality of abortions, not solutions.
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And I’ve explained why the majority of women do not think it immoral to have an abortion. Which is an explanation that is always ignored.
 
Nonatheist said:
First, freedom cannot be attributed to fetus. As freedom is something only beings with personhood posses.
Yes, abortion is in every case a bad act, that doesn’t mean that person doing abortion is immoral.
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Freedom can be attributed to a child in the womb. The mother’s body freely gives nutrients to the baby, and the baby freely accepts the nutrients. Abortion limits this freedom inherent to the life cycle.
l would say this as well, deaths of a bug or a tree are bad things as well.
Death,pain, lack of freedom(persons) is always bad in every possible scenario.
Doing those actions can be either neutral or immoral based on if that action is justified.
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Bad and Immoral are synonymous. Therefore, may you recognize that “Yes, abortion is in every case a(n) [immoral] act.” Furthermore, a person doing abortion is acting immorally, though they may not be thinking, feeling or intending immorally.
l think for any good moral system, morality of an action has to depend on intentions or other forcing factors
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A good (holy) moral system has goodness aligned throughout the being; good acts with good intentions with good feelings with good thoughts.
Any being less than holy is unholy and should continue to develop towards perfect holiness.
 
That’s not freedom, body doesn’t have a choice not to give nutrients, freedom is an attibute that only human persons have.

l don’t accept bad=immoral, accepting that would result in many other problems such as:
Person killing someone by a mistake/ with no intention, we couldn’t call that immoral.
Immorality is commiting a bad act without proper justification
 
Freddy said:
And I’ve explained why the majority of women do not think it immoral to have an abortion. Which is an explanation that is always ignored.
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And now we get to they think it’s moral because they don’t see the baby as a person, which I refuted.
 
Nonatheist said:
Right to life is a legal concept.
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Then don’t expect justice, because the laws protecting human beings sway in the wind according to who wields power.
Don’t expect respect for people of any race, because in many countries we have legally sanctioned the worth-less-ness of human beings.

Don’t be shocked that George Floyd’s life was snuffed out. It’s legally fine in this country to slaughter another human being. When you live in the most barbaric society known to human history, expect barbarism. In fact, if you want to parse the value of human beings as most pro choicers do, you should embrace the barbarity and celebrate it. Call it things like “women’s empowerment” or “health care”. Good things there.

We live in the most barbaric culture ever know to man. Don’t be a contributor please.
 
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Justice is part of deontological ethics, l believe in it but that has nothing to do with this conversation.

If you think that fetus has a right to justice, than you have to give the same right to any form of life.
From cells to bugs.
 
Nonatheist said:
Justice is part of deontological ethics, l believe in it but that has nothing to do with this conversation.

If you think that fetus has a right to justice, than you have to give the same right to any form of life.
From cells to bugs.
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Are you aware of a thing called “biology”? They teach it in many grade schools. You can learn the specifics of molecular biology in more advanced courses.
Education is a good thing.
 
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Elf01 said:
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Freddy:
And I’ve explained why the majority of women do not think it immoral to have an abortion. Which is an explanation that is always ignored.
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And now we get to they think it’s moral because they don’t see the baby as a person, which I refuted.
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You don’t get to refute whether a woman believes that she is carrying a person or not. It’s not your decision. It’s hers. You can disagree with it, but you can’t refute it.
 
So, you believe that something has moral worth just because it’s a part of human species?
If so why?
Would killing of any non-human creature be immoral?
 
Nonatheist said:
So, you believe that something has moral worth just because it’s a part of human species?
If so why?
Would killing of any non-human creature be immoral?
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Let me get this straight.
You are seriously asking if I believe human beings have value?
Really?

That should not surprise me though, considering this:
Nonatheist said:
If you think that fetus has a right to justice, than you have to give the same right to any form of life.
From cells to bugs.
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If you can’t do basic science, you started a thread you had no business starting.
 
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Human beings as human species yes.

Why does being a part of human species give you a moral worth?

In the end it sounds like ‘Humans have moral worth because they are humans’
l don’t find that answer satisfying, l think humans have highest moral worth because of the highest ability to suffer and experience death, that wouldn’t apply to fetuses.

What science?
 
Nonatheist said:
That’s not freedom, body doesn’t have a choice not to give nutrients, freedom is an attibute that only human persons have.
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On the contrary, the body does have a choice to not give nutrients. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if it didn’t have a choice.
l don’t accept bad=immoral, accepting that would result in many other problems such as:
Person killing someone by a mistake/ with no intention, we couldn’t call that immoral.
Immorality is commiting a bad act without proper justification
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What do you say is proper justification?
 
Body is not mind. Mind may or may not be a product of biology but it’s still not a body.
If l cut myself, l don’t control if my body will heal it or not. But l do have a control not to cut myself in a the first place.

Method to determine proper justification would be: Beings level of sentience minus how much the killing of that being benefited the survival/well being of another.
Also, if person couldn’t act rationally, they cannot be morally guilty.

l think that every person could agree with that.
It’s not immoral to kill in animal for food if person is starving, but its immoral to just kill an animal for no reason or pleasure.
If there were two starving people, one eating another to survival wouldn’t be considered immoral.

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That has two problems
  1. The implication of that would be that killing/torturing a dog would be the same as killing a bug, by that alone l think it’s unlikely.
2.That would require for someone to believe in specific religion, as in most eastern religions, all beings can become one with God
 
For clarity, only humans have the potential to become eternally true friends with God.

True friends do not torture other beings.

Though belief/faith/trust is a requirement of true friendship, it isn’t a problem. It actually grants greater freedom, peace and joy in the relationship!
 
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