Defense of Trinity

  • Thread starter Thread starter Hellisreal
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

Hellisreal

Guest
I am having some conversations with a Oneness Pentacostal and wondering if anyone here is familliar with their “biblical” objections to the Trinity and how I can quickly without having to go into a hours long debate point to the most compelling rebuttals with the least amount of scripture tossing.
Especially if a case can be made somehow also using the Hewbrew Scriptures in addition to the New Testament.

I rather approach it in a less is more fashion rather than to get bogged down in verse slinging. I dont think I can defend each counter attack verse so I wont add fuel to the fire by continuing the argument too long. Besides, I will only have a little more than one hour to speak with her.

If anyone knows the flaws in the biblical interpretation they present could you let me know what they are?

Wish me luck, this is the strangest thing to find myself arguing about since I really have had little exposure to this faith.

I am already wondering if this person is going to use the “pagans had 3 headed gods” but that is likely for another part of the forums.
 
I am having some conversations with a Oneness Pentacostal and wondering if anyone here is familliar with their “biblical” objections to the Trinity and how I can quickly without having to go into a hours long debate point to the most compelling rebuttals with the least amount of scripture tossing.
Especially if a case can be made somehow also using the Hewbrew Scriptures in addition to the New Testament. .
Make them defend their alternative. “The Trinity is not found in the Bible” is a cheap shot unless they have a better view. Make them articulate their view, which will be some form of modalism, and then ask them to explain the Garden of Gethsemane.

More positively, make the point that the Trinity is true not because it is explicitly stated in Scripture but because it is the *only *way to make sense of what Scripture says.

Edwin
 
RSV

Matthew 3
16: And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
17: and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
 
The first place you will find it hinted at is in the very first chapter of the Bible.
Gen 1:1 …God created … (Father)
Gen 1:2 …Spirit of God hovered… (Holy Spirit)
Gen 1:3 …God said… (Word - Son)

And after that, God refers to Himself in the plural - “us”.
Gen1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, …

It is not an explicit definition of the Trinity, but the Trinitiy is contained there in a hidden or veiled way. Many of the OT Scriptures referring to Jesus were contained in the same hidden way, (Jesus showed these to the disciples on the way to Emmaus.)

Nita
 
I am having some conversations with a Oneness Pentacostal and wondering if anyone here is familliar with their “biblical” objections to the Trinity and how I can quickly without having to go into a hours long debate point to the most compelling rebuttals with the least amount of scripture tossing.
Especially if a case can be made somehow also using the Hewbrew Scriptures in addition to the New Testament.

I rather approach it in a less is more fashion rather than to get bogged down in verse slinging. I dont think I can defend each counter attack verse so I wont add fuel to the fire by continuing the argument too long. Besides, I will only have a little more than one hour to speak with her.

If anyone knows the flaws in the biblical interpretation they present could you let me know what they are?

Wish me luck, this is the strangest thing to find myself arguing about since I really have had little exposure to this faith.

I am already wondering if this person is going to use the “pagans had 3 headed gods” but that is likely for another part of the forums.
My room mate is a oneness pentacostal. I’ll get you some good apologetics against this nonsense tonight.
 
Thanks everyone!😃

The lady I will see called me tonight and I cant sleep now. She confused me so much I am really nervous talking to her now.

But, I know I will not say anything if I dont have an answer. I will tell her its a good question, and I will get back to her.

I will not bring up things that may lead me into a spiral argument.

I will pray first, before we talk, and I will be calm no matter what she says about my faith, take it with ease, and go home and pray again.

Then, I get to bother you guys with it all:p

I am not afraid. The Holy Spirit will be with me. I will not say anything more than I can to answer a question, and only if I can say it with confidence, and of course citations.

I dont think I can appeal to the Early Fathers or Doctors since she most likely will not accept them.

The bible alone is really not terribly compelling as a weapon for this heresy I am afraid. Its only if you read it in context in entirety do you see the message, and I thank you all so much for helping me since I know I will be challenged by this lady a lot, since we meet 2wice a week with our kids.

She wants to convert me and I dont think she knows that there is nothing better than what I have now. I may not be the smartest Catholic, but I do know that Jesus promised us a Church. I really think that most people dont want to see it literally, and seriously. But, I really do.

He spoke with such authority, and what other Church ever has done such a thing? The Catholic Church speaks with resounding authourity as you would expect - as Jesus did.

I have no doubts, and fully trust and believe that. But, I am not an encyclopedia of information either, and she may see me as a target.

Pray for me to help her see the things I see in trusting in Jesus.
 
I tend to argue this on a philosophical level…
If God is love, he is the subject of love, and needs an object in order to love. If he has no object, he cannot be loving, and therefore can not be God.
Thus, in order to love, and be God, from the moment the Father was, it is necessary that he gives himself away to another, because it is essential to his nature to love. Hence, the Son is a required neccessity for all time, because God always was God, and God’s love needs an object.
 
Hi Hellisreal, an argument I have often made to UPC, oneness that they can not answer is sound exegesis of John 1:1.

forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=343599

Technical documentation here, on this basic argument
forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm

If you and I were to sit down for a meal we would be sitting “face to face” so to speak. That “face to face” proves that we are two seperate persons.

Allow me to paraphrase John 1:1, ( there are plently of translations to back up this ).

In the begining of time ( Genesis 1:1 flashback ) the Logos ( Word ) pre-existed, the Word or Logos was FACE TO FACE with God, and the Word or Logos has the same divine nature as God the Father.

The first phrase, “in the begining” teaches that the Word pre-exists creation.

The second phrase, “face to face” places the Logos as a seperate person from God.

Ther third phrase, clearly teaches that the Logos by NATURE is God.

Now, here is how they read this third phrase,

“the Word is the God” But, the Greek does not have the second article as they read it.

If their reading was correct then John 1:1b and John 1:1c would be contradictions.

simply,

John 1:1b The word was face to face with God ( two people )

vs their

John 1:1c The word was the God ( both are the same person ).

See, the technical link I provided above because what John 1:1c is really saying is The Logos, Word is by nature divine or God.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=apologetic+commentary+John+1%3A1
ONENESS TRANSLATION OF JN.1:1
We are indebted to Bernard and others have helped straighten out the mystery of John1:1.“John identified Jesus as God, the word, the Father, and Jehovah (the I am).”( Oneness of God p.79)
So the word as with God in the sense of belonging to God not in the sense of a separate person besides God. Furthermore, if God in Jn.1:1 means God the father, then the word is not a separate person for the verse would read, “the Word was with the Father and the word was the Father.”( Oneness of God p.189)
letusreason.org/Onenes4.htm

spotlightministries.org.uk/oneness.htm

google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22face+to+face%22++oneness+theology

Williams has “face to face with,” so also H. B. **Montgomery’s **New Testament translations.

winningthevote.org/HBMontgomery.html

google.com/search?hl=en&q=Montgomery+New+Testament+Helen+Centenary+Translation+&btnG=Search

Outline on Trinity
spotlightministries.org.uk/bowmanonthetrinity.htm
 
I tend to argue this on a philosophical level…
If God is love, he is the subject of love, and needs an object in order to love. If he has no object, he cannot be loving, and therefore can not be God.
Thus, in order to love, and be God, from the moment the Father was, it is necessary that he gives himself away to another, because it is essential to his nature to love. Hence, the Son is a required neccessity for all time, because God always was God, and God’s love needs an object.
I wish I had explained it more like this.

But, She would have asked about the Holy Spirit, and I would have been doomed then.

It went pretty badly from the start. I thought she was a nice person who meant well to “help me see the errors of my ways” but, she started right off with,

“Did you know the Trinity is a Catholic invention?”

Then she launched into a rather nasty attack against the Catholic Chruch, for which I paitently sat through asking her to please stay on the topic of the Trinity, and we can discuss the Catholic Church another time:o

I was armed with some scriptures and brought a Protestant bible with me, a King James, to show a willingness to be able to go with that, and with confidence. Again, I did not want to focus on it too much, but I needed to bring it along. 🙂

Then I asked her why she believes that the Trinity is not biblical.
🤷

She really confused me with all sorts of explanations. She said the Apostles never taught it. She said early Christians fought about this and Rome as usual, killed anyone who disagreed with their views.:eek: She said its a mish mash of scripture to put the Trinity together, and if Jesus wanted us to know it if it were important it would have been far more clear than it is in the bible.

Then she asked me if I thought it was a reasonable thing to believe. 😊

I gave her a few scriptures and told her that God is beyond our human understanding. She agreed., and said then why do you let your Church tell you he is 3 in one? :o

I told her that its a matter of faith and it is not unreasonable to see the Scriptures if read in totallity to be telling us this is who He is. But, no its not really clear.:o

She had the look of victory all over her face, and asked me if I had to explain this to someone who never read the bible could I?

(in other words, people like her can read it right, and I cant)

So, I told her that she still had not convinced me and our time was up anyway so she offered to talk with me about it again and I should have told her no. But, not wanting to look defeated I agreed.😦
 
Isaiah 9:6 (King James Version)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Note: the King James is the last translation you want to use with a person in a cult.

YLT: For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Jesus Only people will use Isaiah 9:6 to prove that the Son is the Father in the phrase “everlasting father”, but Young’s Literal translation gets the Hebrew correct with “Father of Eternity” which has a dual meaning that he is both eternal in nature, and is also the author of eternality. christian-apologetics.org/html/The_Trinity.htm In this phrase, I also see him as the creator of all from eternity. All three meanings of “father of eternity” have been purposed among Jewish interpretators.
Some render the words, “the Father of eternity” F19; the author of eternal life, who has procured it for his people, and gives it to them; or to whom eternity belongs, who inhabits it, and is possessed of it, is the everlasting I AM, was before all persons and things, was set up in an office capacity from everlasting, and had a glory with the Father before the world was, in whom eternal election, and with whom the everlasting covenant, were made. The Septuagint version is, “the Father of the world to come” F20; of the Gospel dispensation; so called, (Hebrews 2:5)
studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=9&verse=6

Oneness Pentecostalism and the Trinity
by Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
gospeloutreach.net/optrin.html

letusreason.org/Onendir.htm

apologeticsindex.org/o00.html#oneness

Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity (Paperback)
by Gregory A. Boyd (Author)
 
Thanks Daniel M!😃

I am going to print this off now!

This ought to do it! 👍
Isaiah 9:6 (King James Version)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Note: the King James is the last translation you want to use with a person in a cult.

YLT: For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Jesus Only people will use Isaiah 9:6 to prove that the Son is the Father in the phrase “everlasting father”, but Young’s Literal translation gets the Hebrew correct with “Father of Eternity” which has a dual meaning that he is both eternal in nature, and is also the author of eternality. christian-apologetics.org/html/The_Trinity.htm In this phrase, I also see him as the creator of all from eternity. All three meanings of “father of eternity” have been purposed among Jewish interpretators.

studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=9&verse=6

Oneness Pentecostalism and the Trinity
by Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
gospeloutreach.net/optrin.html

letusreason.org/Onendir.htm

apologeticsindex.org/o00.html#oneness

Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity (Paperback)
by Gregory A. Boyd (Author)
 
What are the circumstances of your getting together with this woman? Do you attend something in common and so you’re both there; or are you setting up appointments for the purpose of discussing religion?

If it’s specifically set up to discuss religion, I’d insist on a little pre-established format as to what topic would be discussed. Gives each person a time to prepare. Also, I’d insist on the common courtesy of not denigrating each others denomination. If she doesn’t want to agree to anything like that, I’d say no to any further conversations. She is not open to hearing anything you have to say and only wants to belittle the Church to you.
She really confused me with all sorts of explanations. She said the Apostles never taught it. She said early Christians fought about this and Rome as usual, killed anyone who disagreed with their views. She said its a mish mash of scripture to put the Trinity together, and if Jesus wanted us to know it if it were important it would have been far more clear than it is in the bible.
I’m assuming she never let you get a word in edgewise to show where the NT Scriptures demonstrate the Trinity (altho they don’t use the actual word). Even just the command given at the end of Matthew’s gospel to “baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”.
And if she can refer to the early Christians and their history to fortify her position, I don’t see why you can’t also use them.

She is right that there were disputes about the triune nature of God. Several different ones. Also, heresies about Jesus - that He was not truly God; others that He was not truly human.
God has His ways of getting the Church to officially define dogmas - and the instrument He often seems to use to accomplish this is by allowing heresies to arise.
gave her a few scriptures and told her that God is beyond our human understanding. She agreed., and said then why do you let your Church tell you he is 3 in one?
If she asks that type of question again, respond by giving her the same question. (eg. Why do you let your Church tell you He isn’t 3 in one?)
She really confused me with all sorts of explanations. She said the Apostles never taught it. She said early Christians fought about this and Rome as usual, killed anyone who disagreed with their views. She said its a mish mash of scripture to put the Trinity together, and if Jesus wanted us to know it if it were important it would have been far more clear than it is in the bible.
Re underlined portion:
Jesus Himself, in the bible, makes it clear that not everything that is important is contained there. At the Last Supper He told the apostles:

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

This passage makes it quite clear that there were some matters of truth that Jesus had not spoken to the apostles about; truths that would be revealed later through the Holy Spirit. Also shows the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Good luck on your next meeting.

Nita
 
From History start from the Didache,

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.

expect the UPC to quote Acts 2:38 “in Jesus name”

Point out that the book of Acts was written to Theophilus, who is a pagan, roman offical studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?word=Theophilus&action=Lookup&search.x=20&search.y=12 If Luke, spoke of baptism into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to him, he would be thinking of baptism into the names of three gods. But, the great commission Matthew 28:18 was spoken to Jesus’s disciples who would understand in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE God by nature.

Ask your UPC freiend to explain the hebrew word elohim, it is the plural hebrew word for God. How does two become “one” echad flesh? "oh hear oh isreal our Lord God is one ( yes echad is the hebrew word. ).

Whereas, the Didache is a church manual written to Christians who would understand baptism into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being ONE God, but three persons within that godhead.

Even as a protestant, because of whom each book was written to, in this case I think the Didache, a church manual has more authority for doctrine than an evangelistic document written to a pagan, roman official.

studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?word=Theophilus&action=Lookup&search.x=20&search.y=12

The Fathers:

St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians (C. 98 A.D.):
The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (C. 155 - 157 A.D.):
St. Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus (181 A.D.):
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (C. 180 A.D.):
theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1.htm#THE%20BLESSED%20TRINITY

Seek quotes from the Fathers that point out that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are seperate persons.

Home > Fathers of the Church > On the Holy Spirit (Ambrose) > Book III
Get the Catholic Encyclopedia on CD-ROM

Print out and Read Ambrose On the Holy Spirit, Book III
newadvent.org/fathers/34023.htm

He points out that a person is sent from another person, that the Holy Spirit interceedes, prays for us, Is God the father praying to himself? As seperate persons, it makes sense that one person of the Godhead prays to another person of the Godhead. But, if all three are one person, then one praying to the other makes no sense. I am pointing you to the Holy Spirit praying because they can argue that Jesus as a man was praying to God. But, the Holy Spirit is not a man.

Basically, your oneness person, is going to be using proof texts that they have been mistaught interpretations of those texts. Your position concerning the trinity is based on EXEGESIS of the scriptures which runs a lot deeper.

Read Ambrose above on the Holy Spirit, he is your best historical arguement you can put forth.

Your UPC, or oneness person will claim that his church is the orginal church based on his interpretations of scripture. Your best case is to appeal to historical church fathers which teach a purality of persons within the godhead.

Challenge them to list their complete theology, go to a computer, access the new advent site and ask them to prove that their theology is in fact taught by those whom the apostles taught.

HOLY BIBLE: Exodus 33And the** Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man is wont to speak to his friend.** And when he returned into the camp, his servant Josue, the son of Nun, …

The fact that God spoke to Moses face to face proves they are two persons.
 
Hello Nita,

I have a child in a playgroup with her children. The kids get along fairly well, and we seem to be the 2 moms in that group that sorta hoover around our kids and she and I ended up becoming friendly but she kept asking me questions about why I am a Catholic (I guess my Parish name blasted on a t-shirt sorta gave it away.) And she had this really sad look on her face and started out nice with some simple things like, do you read the bible often, here is a verse you may like to read, and do you pray often? And so on and so on. I never got a bad feeling from her before, but I was upset when she attacked the Catholic Church instead of getting to her point.

I will take your hints in strategy and see if I can get more aggressive and ask her questions. I may ask, when did your Church start? :whistle: But I wonder how she will take that into a black tunnel of mental gymnastics.

She seems to be gaining speed and momentum from simple talking about faith to a full frontal assualt on my faith.

I should go spend time at adoration to get some gusto and renewed zip to tackle this challenge.🙂
 
Thanks again for the additional post Dan, I missed it as I posted to Nita.

I will ask her for at least until Monday to talk about it again. I have a lot of reading to do and maybe some double duty prayer time too.😉
 
Oh by the way, oneness, UPC theology is the hersey of sabellianism aka modalism google.com/search?hl=en&q=heresies+christ+sabellianism+modalism

newadvent.org/etc/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628%3Aifmbhlr-8x0&q=sabellius&cof=FORID%3A9#912

Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church (Hardcover) by Harold O. J. Brown (Author)
amazon.com/Heresies-Heresy-Orthodoxy-History-Church/dp/1565633652/ref=pd_sim_b_2/103-0230196-3922202
Sabellianism (Modalism, patripassionism) Sabellius, Praxeus, Noetus, Epigonus said the one God reveals himself in three modes of being. Although Dynamic modalism said that the deity was limited to the father alone Modalistic Monarchianism deified the Son also. Saying the unity of god is ultra-simplex. That the one essence could be interchangeable as the Father, Son , Spirit. they were all different names for the one person who is God. So the Son was the Father himself in a different mode.
letusreason.org/Onenes3.htm

If you want to zap her right off, ask her to name the succession of bishops?

newadvent.org/etc/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628%3Aifmbhlr-8x0&q=+succession+bishops&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A9#915
 
Hi Hellisreal, ( I am tempted to call you hell raiser in the good sense of the word ) print, and share this passage.
St. Irenaeus Adversus Haereses (Book III, Chapter 3)
A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.
newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Her church is a recent ( around 1900 or so ) denomination. and, if I remember correctly it was the result of a private “revelation” in a pentecostal camp meeting.

Note: you are battling a lot of psychological warfare going on in her church, here is a board of ex-upc who talk about the problems and psychological pain caused by their church in their lives. p212.ezboard.com/bexpentecostalforums Basically, she may not recognize it at this time, but she is involved with an very abusive denomination.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=ezboard+ex-pentecostal
spiritualabuse.org/upcbeliefs.html
spiritualabuse.org/
spiritualabuse.org/members.html
google.com/search?hl=en&q=spiritual+abuse+UPC
 
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh, Dan

How sad! I just read your last post and I am really feeling sorry for this woman.

And here she is trying so hard to “help” me. I will be very nice to her no matter what she says or does, if she is in a situation like this she needs Love and compassion and that’s the best witness of Jesus Christ I can hope to ever show her since it looks like she is involved with something very dangerous. I will still talk to her when I am done reading all this and more comfortable knowing her beliefs.

It looks like we not remain friends much longer I am afraid. She wont like what I will say to her.

I am so grateful to be a Catholic each and everyday. How much more I realize it when I see things like this.
 
I am already wondering if this person is going to use the “pagans had 3 headed gods” but that is likely for another part of the forums.
Hi
Is it not a fact that pagans had 3 headed gods?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
 
Hi
Is it not a fact that pagans had 3 headed gods?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
I am sure Pagans may have had 3 headed gods. I dont have a three headed god.

Thank you and goodbye!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top