Defense of Trinity

[LindaS]

In RCIA, we often tell our candidates that the the word “Trinity” is not specifically mentioned in the Bible (and neither is “Incarnation”), but when Jesus gave the Great Commission, He told the disciples to “…make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” (Matt 28:19) In my opinion, that pretty clearly explains the Trinity.

Peace,
Linda

 

[Hellisreal]

Too me too LindaS!

But, I firmly beleive people like us who see that clearly are given the grace from God to see it. Some people need to be convinced by intellectual means, and for them I feel most sorry.

In RCIA, we often tell our candidates that the the word “Trinity” is not specifically mentioned in the Bible (and neither is “Incarnation”), but when Jesus gave the Great Commission, He told the disciples to “…make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” (Matt 28:19) In my opinion, that pretty clearly explains the Trinity.

Peace,
Linda

 

[briang72]

If God is one person, why would Jesus pray to his Father in heaven? How could the Holy Spirit descend upon Jesus at His baptism? The word Trinity is not there, but the *Trinity *is there!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Was the Johannine Comma inserted into the scriptures to defend the Trinity or is the Johannine Comma really the actual scipture suppressed by opponents of the Trinity?

 

[Hellisreal]

Was the Johannine Comma inserted into the scriptures to defend the Trinity or is the Johannine Comma really the actual scipture suppressed by opponents of the Trinity?

I never heard that term before. Would you like to tell me what it means?

Could you tell me what faith tradition teaches this conspiracy theory regarding the Trinity?

 

[Nita]

If God is one person, why would Jesus pray to his Father in heaven? How could the Holy Spirit descend upon Jesus at His baptism? The word Trinity is not there, but the *Trinity *is there!

God is not one person. The doctrine of the Trinity says there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in the One God.
It is a mystery; that is, we cannot fully comprehend it.

Nita

 

[Hellisreal]

God is not one person. The doctrine of the Trinity says there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in the One God.
It is a mystery; that is, we cannot fully comprehend it.

Nita

We do so out of faith, and the understanding of it has scriptural support, but more than that, is the living Church that has taught this to the faithful, without error.

 

[paarsurrey]

“Did you know the Trinity is a Catholic invention?”

Hi
Well ,to me, that is a plain fact, having no real basis in the scripture, only conjectures. I love Jesus and Christians.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Hellisreal]

Hi
Well ,to me, that is a plain fact, having no real basis in the scripture, only conjectures. I love Jesus and Christians.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Thank you for your thoughts.

I dont think you have convinced me to toss my faith into the trash bin just yet, if at all.

Thank you for your imput,

Good night now

 

[runandsew]

You know, when people say the Trinity is a “Catholic invention”, or that the Council of Nicaea was the Church caving in to Constantine or Pagan Rome. I have to say to this - Do they realize who the bishops were that made up the body of the Council of Nicaea .
The men had been tortured and mutilated for their faith, does anyone really think that these men would have given up on their faith for Pagan Rome or even an emperor? The had limbs chopped off, eyes missing, tongues cut out, I mean lets be real, these Bishops would have died for what they believed, and I am suppose to believe that they just followed what Constantine dictated, to go against what they truly believed?

I mean even Jolly old Saint Nicholas slapped Arias during the Council of Nicaea. These Bishops were serious about preserving the faith handed down to them. I find it very hard to believe that they would have sacrificed what they truly believed, because they had already proved them selves to be martyrs for the faith.

I would bring up this fact up to anyone who would spout such nonsense.

 

[Hellisreal]

I guess I never thought to mention that since I assume people know that already. Clearly this is a problem I have, and I need to stop assuming people know this.

I just have to get tougher and pull up my sleeves and get into it without holding anything back.

You know, when people say the Trinity is a “Catholic invention”, or that the Council of Nicaea was the Church caving in to Constantine or Pagan Rome. I have to say to this - Do they realize who the bishops were that made up the body of the Council of Nicaea .
The men had been tortured and mutilated for their faith, does anyone really think that these men would have given up on their faith for Pagan Rome or even an emperor? The had limbs chopped off, eyes missing, tongues cut out, I mean lets be real, these Bishops would have died for what they believed, and I am suppose to believe that they just followed what Constantine dictated, to go against what they truly believed?

I mean even Jolly old Saint Nicholas slapped Arias during the Council of Nicaea. These Bishops were serious about preserving the faith handed down to them. I find it very hard to believe that they would have sacrificed what they truly believed, because they had already proved them selves to be martyrs for the faith.

I would bring up this fact up to anyone who would spout such nonsense.

 

[MH84]

More positively, make the point that the Trinity is true not because it is explicitly stated in Scripture but because it is the *only *way to make sense of what Scripture says.

I don’t know. I often wish that was true. I’m glad that God has given us His Church to help us interpret the Bible. So many people have different opinions.

 

[MH84]

I am having some conversations with a Oneness Pentacostal and wondering if anyone here is familliar with their “biblical” objections to the Trinity and how I can quickly without having to go into a hours long debate point to the most compelling rebuttals with the least amount of scripture tossing.
Especially if a case can be made somehow also using the Hewbrew Scriptures in addition to the New Testament.

I rather approach it in a less is more fashion rather than to get bogged down in verse slinging. I dont think I can defend each counter attack verse so I wont add fuel to the fire by continuing the argument too long. Besides, I will only have a little more than one hour to speak with her.

If anyone knows the flaws in the biblical interpretation they present could you let me know what they are?

Wish me luck, this is the strangest thing to find myself arguing about since I really have had little exposure to this faith.

I am already wondering if this person is going to use the “pagans had 3 headed gods” but that is likely for another part of the forums.

After quite a while going to ewtn.com (mainly the q & a) I have realised what a (dare I say) comprehensive document library and also an audio library full of great orthodox Catholic teachings, encyclicals, theology etc. that is available.

I recently downloaded and printed an exerpt from Light of Faith; The Compendium of Theology" from EWTN which I am going to read properly. I have difficulty understanding such complex and almost mathematical theology of Saint Thomas Aquinas but this format seems to be quite readable and contains really deep theological concepts about the Holy Trinity. And its quite brief! (considering the topic) Perfect for short attention spans or those who aren’t big readers.
Thumbs up to the crew at EWTN!

BTW for those with a sensitive conscience, you can print the documents as long as its for personal use only, otherwise u have to ask permission okay. :coffeeread:

 

[Hellisreal]

Thanks for the heads up on that one!

After quite a while going to ewtn.com (mainly the q & a) I have realised what a (dare I say) comprehensive document library and also an audio library full of great orthodox Catholic teachings, encyclicals, theology etc. that is available.

I recently downloaded and printed an exerpt from Light of Faith; The Compendium of Theology" from EWTN which I am going to read properly. I have difficulty understanding such complex and almost mathematical theology of Saint Thomas Aquinas but this format seems to be quite readable and contains really deep theological concepts about the Holy Trinity. And its quite brief! (considering the topic) Perfect for short attention spans or those who aren’t big readers.
Thumbs up to the crew at EWTN!

BTW for those with a sensitive conscience, you can print the documents as long as its for personal use only, otherwise u have to ask permission okay. :coffeeread:

 

[Augustine22]

I remember reading that the Hebrew word for “one” that was used about God was “echad”. I think I remember that this doesn’t mean a singularity but a joint kind of oneness, like when a man and a woman become one.

I found this anyway: godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.php

Then there’s the Sh’ma, too:

“Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.”

Three mentions of Lord/God.

 

[Hellisreal]

Thanks Aug 22!

 

[Augustine22]

Your welcome. Be careful though and check it to be sure. I’m pretty sure thats right.

 

[spauline]

I tend to argue this on a philosophical level…
If God is love, he is the subject of love, and needs an object in order to love. If he has no object, he cannot be loving, and therefore can not be God.
Thus, in order to love, and be God, from the moment the Father was, it is necessary that he gives himself away to another, because it is essential to his nature to love. Hence, the Son is a required neccessity for all time, because God always was God, and God’s love needs an object.

Yes, cialovesyou, this absolutely nails the argument. This is the ultimate reason we believe in the Trinity, because it was BY infinite Love and FOR infinite Love that we were created. Human sexuality, as JPII has reiterated for us, confirms this greatest of all spiritual mysteries to us? Ask her this, Hellisreal, do you think God created us sexual creatures arbitrarily, or does God and HAS God not in fact created certain things in this wondrous creation to teach us spiritual mysteries? Is it by mere random chance of blind evolutionary forces that we need physical food and drink to live, or did God in fact intend from all eternity to create us this way to teach us that we what ultimately need is SPIRITUAL food (truth for our intellects and grace for our wills), or else we die SPIRITUALLY? So then, ask her, is sex an accident? Ask her this, which is more beautiful: asexual procreation or sexual? I mean, could not God have created us so that we just, by ourselves, pull on our finger and out comes a baby? Or is it rather a speechlessly indescribable beauty that God has willed the new creations of human beings to come from the love between two others, a love that seeks to give all and hold nothing back, to fully receive, and mutually abandon oneself into the love and gift and reception of the other?

But then this is precisely the Trinity! God the Father’s Love is so immeasurable that “from it” proceeds the Son (woman was taken from man) and the Love between the Father and Son is so powerful that it becomes another person, the Holy Spirit (just as, again, the love between man and wife is so wondrous that it can become another person, a priceless child!).

That may give her something to chew on, Hellisreal!

In other words, if God is but one person only, and Love is the fulfillment of all existence, who was God loving before Creation? Himself? So then we have spiritual masturbation, infinite narcissism.

 

[Hellisreal]

Thank you very much Spauline! I have to say, she has voiced some doubts already to me about her faith now. I have to admit at first I thought it would be best not to discuss until she read things first, so I printed off a ton of stuff from this thread and gave it to her.

Now that she has read some of it, and told me she “has some serious doubts” about how she always felt soooo certain her faith was “the one” she may not have been as deeply steeped into it as I thought.
Now she is ready for a personal discussion at this point, and this would be a good way to direct the conversation.

I will see her on Wed and Thursday so, wish me luck!

Yes, cialovesyou, this absolutely nails the argument. This is the ultimate reason we believe in the Trinity, because it was BY infinite Love and FOR infinite Love that we were created. Human sexuality, as JPII has reiterated for us, confirms this greatest of all spiritual mysteries to us? Ask her this, Hellisreal, do you think God created us sexual creatures arbitrarily, or does God and HAS God not in fact created certain things in this wondrous creation to teach us spiritual mysteries? Is it by mere random chance of blind evolutionary forces that we need physical food and drink to live, or did God in fact intend from all eternity to create us this way to teach us that we what ultimately need is SPIRITUAL food (truth for our intellects and grace for our wills), or else we die SPIRITUALLY? So then, ask her, is sex an accident? Ask her this, which is more beautiful: asexual procreation or sexual? I mean, could not God have created us so that we just, by ourselves, pull on our finger and out comes a baby? Or is it rather a speechlessly indescribable beauty that God has willed the new creations of human beings to come from the love between two others, a love that seeks to give all and hold nothing back, to fully receive, and mutually abandon oneself into the love and gift and reception of the other?

But then this is precisely the Trinity! God the Father’s Love is so immeasurable that “from it” proceeds the Son (woman was taken from man) and the Love between the Father and Son is so powerful that it becomes another person, the Holy Spirit (just as, again, the love between man and wife is so wondrous that it can become another person, a priceless child!).

That may give her something to chew on, Hellisreal!

In other words, if God is but one person only, and Love is the fulfillment of all existence, who was God loving before Creation? Himself? So then we have spiritual masturbation, infinite narcissism.

 

[spauline]

Thank you very much Spauline! I have to say, she has voiced some doubts already to me about her faith now. I have to admit at first I thought it would be best not to discuss until she read things first, so I printed off a ton of stuff from this thread and gave it to her.

Now that she has read some of it, and told me she “has some serious doubts” about how she always felt soooo certain her faith was “the one” she may not have been as deeply steeped into it as I thought.
Now she is ready for a personal discussion at this point, and this would be a good way to direct the conversation.

I will see her on Wed and Thursday so, wish me luck!

Wonderful, Hellisreal! You are welcome! And I will say a prayer for you (Obi-Wan: “in my book, there is no such thing as luck!”). Blessings to you as you share our deeply beautiful faith with a searching soul!