deficiences in other churches

[achristiantoo]

In another thread this statement was made which was getting away from OP

My question is
How are non catholic churches deficient?

be specific

thank you

 

[LDNCatholic]

Lack of Apostolic Succession leading to an inability to deliver Sacraments beyond Baptism and Matrimony.

Personal interpretations of Scripture and rejection of Sacred Tradition leads to wildly different doctrines.

 

[pablope]

Lack of Apostolic Succession leading to an inability to deliver Sacraments beyond Baptism and Matrimony.

Personal interpretations of Scripture and rejection of Sacred Tradition leads to wildly different doctrines.

Including removing the 7 books from the OT in the 1800s or so, and disbelief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Here is a comparison of Catholic and Protestant differences:

chnetwork.org/Journal.html

Happy reading…

 

[achristiantoo]

Lack of Apostolic Succession leading to an inability to deliver Sacraments beyond Baptism and Matrimony.

ok … do you believe then since we do not have Apostolic Succesion, God does not deliver the sacraments to us non catholics from Him through the Holy Spirit who reighns in all of us?

Personal interpretations of Scripture and rejection of Sacred Tradition leads to wildly different doctrines.

Oh yes, the laws and doctrines of all the different churches.

For a non christian, it may present confusion.

This church says one thing and that one says another

Amidst all the confusion, I realize all christian churches have this in common…

We all believe in the same God

God sent His only begotten son Jesus Christ to earth born of virgin Mary

Jesus died on the cross as payment for the sins of all mankind

Jesus rose from the dead 3 days later and then in front of a crowd of witnesses ascended to heaven

One day Jesus will return to earth
do you agree with me?

 

[LDNCatholic]

ok … do you believe then since we do not have Apostolic Succesion, God does not deliver the sacraments to us non catholics from Him through the Holy Spirit who reighns in all of us?

No. Non Catholic eccslesial communities positively do not possess valid Sacraments beyond Baptism and Matrimony (only for non Catholics).

Oh yes, the laws and doctrines of all the different churches.

Are flawed and man made with the exception of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

For a non christian, it may present confusion.

This church says one thing and that one says another

Even confuses some Christians…

Amidst all the confusion, I realize all christian churches have this in common…

We all believe in the same God

God sent His only begotten son Jesus Christ to earth born of virgin Mary

Jesus died on the cross as payment for the sins of all mankind

Jesus rose from the dead 3 days later and then in front of a crowd of witnesses ascended to heaven

One day Jesus will return to earth
do you agree with me?

Yes. But that is not the fullness of the faith and leaves Protestant ecclesial communities sorely deficient and wholly unnecessary.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Including removing the 7 books from the OT in the 1800s or so, and disbelief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Here is a comparison of Catholic and Protestant differences:

chnetwork.org/Journal.html

Happy reading…

Forgot about that. Leaves them scripturally deficient.

 

[achristiantoo]

Including removing the 7 books from the OT in the 1800s or so, and disbelief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Here is a comparison of Catholic and Protestant differences:

chnetwork.org/Journal.html

Happy reading…

yes the catholic bible has more books.

bottom line is this, is the teachings of those books necessary for me to know to get to heaven?

About the real presence…

it is wonderful you believe in the real presence.

We already have the Holy Spirit living in us 24/7

at communion to believe you are taking in His body and blood must be an awesome experience.
It is true thst I do not believe in the real presence

at communion, I reflect on that last supper ad Jesus was saying goodbye to his disciples knowing the sacrifice He was about to make on the cross out of His love for all of us.

at communion I am so grateful to Him for forgiving my confessed sins

I am also grateful to God for treating Jesus on that day as though He lived my life

I deserved to be punished not Jesus

I am the wretch

Thank you Jesus for your Amazing Grace

 

[achristiantoo]

No. Non Catholic eccslesial communities positively do not possess valid Sacraments beyond Baptism and Matrimony (only for non Catholics).

Agree to disagree

Are flawed and man made with the exception of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

agree to disagree

Even confuses some Christians…

some? lol a few more than some

Yes.

yes!!! we agree

But that is not the fullness of the faith and leaves Protestant ecclesial communities sorely deficient and wholly unnecessary.

**ok then. let me ask you, what is necessary for one to enter the kingdom of God?

I have a non catholic friend who is on his last days. If I were him, what would you tell me is “necessary” for me to get to heaven?**

 

[nhylan]

achristiantoo:
Different church’s have different levels of what the Roman Church terms “the fullness of truth” or similarity of practice and doctrine with the Roman Catholic Church. It’s important to remember that ultimately for those who are not in physical communion with Rome, that Rome’s opinion of our churches doesn’t matter. For instance, it is highly lamentable to Anglican’s that the Roman Catholic Church believes, in error, that Anglican’s do not have valid holy orders, but that does not change the fact that we do. There’s no real point in worrying about what Roman Catholics believe or profess that we lack, all we can do is love the Lord our God with all our hearts and with all our souls as we do in our historical context.

 

[TimothyH]

We already have the Holy Spirit living in us 24/7

The Holy Spirit resides in us but not 24x7. When we commit mortal sin, we drive the Holy Spirit from us and we need to confess in order to have the Holy Spirit return - to be fiilled with the spirit.

And this brings up my primary point about priests and confession and the efficacy of non-Catholic religions…

A priest of the Church established by Jesus Christ has a special gift of the Holy Spirit that ordinary Christians do not have. The sacrament of Holy Orders conferred on a Priest of God has created a permanent mark on his soul which can never be removed. Through this special gift of the Holy Spirit, a priest has been granted authority to act on behalf of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. The normal and ordinary way which God gave us to access forgiveness of sins, healing, infusion of the Holy Spirit and return to a state of sanctifying grace is through confession to a validly ordained priest of the Church established by Christ.

Simply put, non-Catholic Churches do not have this and so they cannot provide for forgiveness of sins in a way in which only the Holy Catholic Church can.

Sure, you can ask God for forgiveness directly but since God himself set up a system for us to use, why would you go off on your own and try something different. Doing so is a gamble with your salvation and the inability to provide this means of forgiveness, healing and return to a state of sanctifying grace renders non-Catholic Churches hugely deficient and they therefor place the salvation of their members at grave risk.

-Tim-

 

[joemccarron]

This was in response to achristiantoo two poster posted before me - I’m that slow.

In answer to your last question I would say we are not the Judges. The church has recognized a few people as saints but the rest it is hard to tell.

The Catholic in general will not take one passage in isolation out of scripture and say - there that is it - that’s all you have to do. You are of course to believe and trust in God - have faith. But what that means in practice is not always so easy to sort out.

Look at what Luther taught about this issue – it’s basically irrelevant what we do as it is all God’s work in saving us - or not. God is no longer really judging us but his own work. He is then punishing or rewarding us based on something we have no control over. This teaching is deficient, and IMO has lead to many people to discard Christianity as irrational.

You may think you have it all cracked up but then again so did Peter. I think if Peter after spending so much time with Jesus could lapse (deny Jesus 3 times) that is a powerful lesson to all of us not to get too cocky.

Are the 7 books of scripture necessary? It depends who we are talking about. Some people were illiterate and likely in heaven. Would you agree people might make it into heaven even if they haven’t read Leviticus? Others may need what those books offer. The only thing I can say is they are likely scripture for a reason, and for someone.

There are so many different variations of Christians from heaven’s gate, to the unification church, it is very hard to list out how Catholics think everyone is missing things. I would recommend that you read what the Catholic Church believes and decide for yourself how it is different than your own particular brand of Christianity.

I think posters have offered you general reasons why we think other protestant groups are deficient. I know it is not a pleasant topic, and likely to cause insult. Talking about these different views can lead to bristling. But I like to think cooler heads will eventually prevail and you can read the different views and reach your own conclusions based on reason and scripture.

Good luck and God Bless you in your search.

 

[TimothyH]

Different church’s have different levels of what the Roman Church terms “the fullness of truth” or similarity of practice and doctrine with the Roman Catholic Church. It’s important to remember that ultimately for those who are not in physical communion with Rome, that Rome’s opinion of our churches doesn’t matter. For instance, it is highly lamentable to Anglican’s that the Roman Catholic Church believes, in error, that Anglican’s do not have valid holy orders, but that does not change the fact that we do. There’s no real point in worrying about what Roman Catholics believe or profess that we lack, all we can do is love the Lord our God with all our hearts and with all our souls as we do in our historical context.

Saying so doesn’t make it so.

It is highly lamentable to Catholics that the Anglican Church has rejected the authority of the Church established by Jesus Christ himself and in so doing, have rejected the authority under which that Church was established - Christ himself.

Again, saying so doesn’t make it so, on both my part and yours.

But you can come home to the Church which has never changed one single doctrine or belief, which has never wavered on issues of life or human sexuality like the Anglican Church did with contraception in the 1930’s, which exists universally throughout all nations and whose historical context can be traced directly to Jesus Christ through Peter and not through a secular monarch.

But for you personally, you can come home. The door is open. I hope you will consider.

-Tim-

 

[JeanMichel]

Different church’s have different levels of what the Roman Church terms “the fullness of truth” or similarity of practice and doctrine with the Roman Catholic Church. It’s important to remember that ultimately for those who are not in physical communion with Rome, that Rome’s opinion of our churches doesn’t matter. For instance, it is highly lamentable to Anglican’s that the Roman Catholic Church believes, in error, that Anglican’s do not have valid holy orders, but that does not change the fact that we do. There’s no real point in worrying about what Roman Catholics believe or profess that we lack, all we can do is love the Lord our God with all our hearts and with all our souls as we do in our historical context.

I have collected art for many years. One of the things that is so important when I view a piece of art that I would like to purchase is its provenance; its history of ownership is one way to determine and/or prove that it is an original and not a clever fake.

Provenance is also important when we look at churches. Please forgive me for being direct, but I wish to speak with clarity. One of my problems with Anglicanism is its history, its provenance. It exists because a king rebelled against Rome. This was a man creating his own church. This is something that I could never overlook. For me, it comes across as an imitation of the Church. How could it have apostolic succession; the keys sit with the chair of Peter, not a king in England?

Please forgive me if I offend with these words; it is not my intent. My intent is to speak honestly of my perceptions. Peace of Christ be with all,

 

[TimothyH]

Provenance, from the French provenir, “to come from”, means the origin, or the source of something, or the history of the ownership or location of an object. … In most fields, the primary purpose of provenance is to confirm or gather evidence as to the time, place, and—when appropriate—the person responsible for the creation, production, or discovery of the object. This will typically be accomplished by tracing the whole history of the object up to the present. Comparative techniques, expert opinions, and the results of scientific tests may also be used to these ends, but establishing provenance is essentially a matter of documentation.

Well put. I’ll have to remember that.

-Tim-

 

[ESMDHokie77]

deficiencies…
How about being started 1500 years after Christ established the universal one?

 

[guanophore]

ok ....  do you believe then since we do not have Apostolic Succesion, God does not deliver the sacraments to us non catholics from Him through the Holy Spirit who reighns in all of us?

The HS uses these eccelsial communities to draw people to Himself. There is only one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and we recognize and embrace all who are validly baptized as members of the Body of Christ (Christians).

Oh yes, the laws and doctrines of all the different churches.

All Protestant denominations are defined by the nature and extent to which they have departed from Catholicity (the One Faith handed down to us from the Apostles).

For a non christian, it may present confusion.

This church says one thing and that one says another

Amidst all the confusion, I realize all christian churches have this in common…

We all believe in the same God

God sent His only begotten son Jesus Christ to earth born of virgin Mary

Jesus died on the cross as payment for the sins of all mankind

Jesus rose from the dead 3 days later and then in front of a crowd of witnesses ascended to heaven

One day Jesus will return to earth
do you agree with me?

Yes, and no. Of course your faith statement, being Catholic, is one with which we are in agreement, but even Christians are confused, and sometimes led astray, by the multiplicity of communities calling themselves “christian”.

yes the catholic bible has more books.

Have you never wondered who had to take books out of the Canon that was passed down to us from the Apostles?

bottom line is this, is the teachings of those books necessary for me to know to get to heaven?

Who are you to decide what God has provided for the purification of your soul? Shall the clay say unto the Potter, why has Thou done these things?

About the real presence…

it is wonderful you believe in the real presence. at communion to believe you are taking in His body and blood must be an awesome experience.at communion I am so grateful to Him for forgiving my confessed sins

It is true thst I do not believe in the real presence

You do realize that this is one of the Apostlolic teachings from which most of the modern evangelical communities have departed, do you not?

We already have the Holy Spirit living in us 24/7

I have a news flash for you. The HS does not lead one believer in the opposite direction He has led the Holy Bride of Christ.

at communion, I reflect on that last supper ad Jesus was saying goodbye to his disciples knowing the sacrifice He was about to make on the cross out of His love for all of us.

May God richly bless you for meditating upon His sacrifice. May your meditiation lead you into all Truth.

 

[babylonsfalling]

In another thread this statement was made which was getting away from OP

My question is
How are non catholic churches deficient?

be specific

thank you

One thing is the penitential prayer/rite…pasted below…

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, <-----This part is not necessary
all the angels and saints, <-----This part is not necessary either
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God amen .

I’ve never heard anything like this in any non catholic churches I’ve been to. It’s a very good thing for a large group of people to publicly acknowledge/confess their sins. It’s sets up a correct perspective of oneself before God, verbally recognizes ourselves as sinners in need of forgiveness and it’s Biblical.

I know that non catholics all understand these things but this prayer keeps that knowledge more at the forefront of our brains. It keeps us more humble before God and I think it’s one of the reasons I never hear a catholic say in reference to their sin…“it doesn’t matter because I’m already forgiven.”

Catholics just try harder not to sin, and I believe this prayer is part of the reason for that.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Agree to disagree

Makes no difference to me either way. Truth is not open to debate.

ok then. let me ask you, what is necessary for one to enter the kingdom of God?

I have a non catholic friend who is on his last days. If I were him, what would you tell me is “necessary” for me to get to heaven?

The Protestant Faith is often very guilty of your line of thinking, ‘‘What is the bare minimum I must do to get saved?’’

If you were a non Catholic on your deathbed I would urge you to consider a conversion to the fullness of Faith and Truth in Christ’s Church.

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I am not saying that Protestants all go to Hell, but by removing yourself from His Church, the Church He founded, you’re not helping your chances.

God does not will heresy or apostasy. God does not will a dilution of the Truth or for only half the Truth to be shown.

 

[nhylan]

Saying so doesn’t make it so.

It is highly lamentable to Catholics that the Anglican Church has rejected the authority of the Church established by Jesus Christ himself and in so doing, have rejected the authority under which that Church was established - Christ himself.

Again, saying so doesn’t make it so, on both my part and yours.

But you can come home to the Church which has never changed one single doctrine or belief, which has never wavered on issues of life or human sexuality like the Anglican Church did with contraception in the 1930’s, which exists universally throughout all nations and whose historical context can be traced directly to Jesus Christ through Peter and not through a secular monarch.

But for you personally, you can come home. The door is open. I hope you will consider.

-Tim-

I thank you for your invitation. I know that behind it lies only good intention. The struggles which have gripped Anglicanism further point me towards Anglicanisms true-ness as part of the One church founded by Christ and led initially by the Apostles. Anglicanism does not revel in its completeness but rather it’s incompleteness which brings us to struggle before God to ascertain His truth. I am home my brother.

 

[nhylan]

I have collected art for many years. One of the things that is so important when I view a piece of art that I would like to purchase is its provenance; its history of ownership is one way to determine and/or prove that it is an original and not a clever fake.

Provenance is also important when we look at churches. Please forgive me for being direct, but I wish to speak with clarity. One of my problems with Anglicanism is its history, its provenance. It exists because a king rebelled against Rome. This was a man creating his own church. This is something that I could never overlook. For me, it comes across as an imitation of the Church. How could it have apostolic succession; the keys sit with the chair of Peter, not a king in England?

Please forgive me if I offend with these words; it is not my intent. My intent is to speak honestly of my perceptions. Peace of Christ be with all,

Provenance cannot be a sole guide to truth. Do you also like classical music? Richard Wagner was an undeniably wretched human being, but there is no denying that his music soars and transcends basic human life and reveals something far greater than ourselves. I think you’d find Anglicans that disgree but many would agree that Peter was given the keys. (there’s even a window of Peter at our church and he has the keys in the window) but our understanding is different. I don’t really want to get into that because its been hashed and rehashed to death on this website and its not really worth the energy at this point.