Define Born again

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John1717:
The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire “which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,” (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

Please reconcile the above statement with the following:

The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:

"Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom.
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No contradiction at all. Notice that John Paul II said “will enter God’s kingdom”

God’s kingdom is the Church. It has always been the Church teaching and teaching of the Fathers of the Church, that those who live according to the beatitudes, that is, those who follow their conscience and try to do what is good, even though they they have never heard of God will be part members of the Church, (members of God’s kingdom) and thus can be saved through the Church. Same think with Protestants, Jews, etc., who don’t know the truth because of no fault of their own.

Now, those Protestants, Jews, pagans, etc, who know the Church is the one true Chruch founded by Jesus and who refuse to join because they don’t want to obey God, these are separated from God and His Church and will end up in hell.
 
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dcdurel:
No contradiction at all. Notice that John Paul II said “will enter God’s kingdom”

God’s kingdom is the Church. It has always been the Church teaching and teaching of the Fathers of the Church, that those who live according to the beatitudes, that is, those who follow their conscience and try to do what is good, even though they they have never heard of God will be part members of the Church, (members of God’s kingdom) and thus can be saved through the Church. Same think with Protestants, Jews, etc., who don’t know the truth because of no fault of their own.

I can’t think of a more disasterous teaching than this! To believe that those who live according to the beatitudes, that is, those who follow their conscience and try to do what is good, even though they they have never heard of God will be part members of the Church, (members of God’s kingdom) and thus can be saved through the Church? You seem to be saying that faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation! Let’s see what the Scriptures have to say!
In John 6:40 Jesus states, “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I shall raise him up at the last day.”
1 John 5:10-12 states, “Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”
In John 3:36 Jesus states, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Con’t
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Acts 4:12 states, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
****Acts 16:31 states, “…Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…”
Romans 4:5 states, “However, to the man who does not work but trust God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
Romans 5:1-2 states, “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”
In John 3:16 Jesus said, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
In John 5:24 Jesus states, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life.”
I think the reason for this disasterous teaching can be found In John 8:47 where Jesus states, “He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” :tsktsk:

the Church is the one true Chruch founded by Jesus

**Please enlighten me as to your definition of “the Church.” I hope you are not suggesting it’s the Roman Catholic Church! The RCC didn’t even exist in the first century and therefore was not founded by Jesus Christ! :nope: **
 
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John1717:
the Church is the one true Chruch founded by Jesus

**Please enlighten me as to your definition of “the Church.” I hope you are not suggesting it’s the Roman Catholic Church! The RCC didn’t even exist in the first century and therefore was not founded by Jesus Christ! :nope: **
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Ok, now let’s think this one through…

“Bible” Christians claim that their Church is MORE like the early Church then say the Roman Catholic Church, correct?

So, let’s see how this logic plays out, shall we.
  1. Early Christian were more like the “Bible” Christians of today, then say the Roman Catholic Church.
  2. We have historical records of these early Christian by way of pagans, Jews and the early Christians themselves.
  3. In the historical records is revealed what early Christians thought, believed and practiced.
  4. In the historical records it reveals what the early Christians thought, believed and practiced is in line with Roman Catholic Teaching.
Therefore, premise 1 is false.

I love logic

Peace
 
John1717 said:
**…****Please enlighten me as to your definition of “the Church.” I hope you are not suggesting it’s the Roman Catholic Church! The RCC didn’t even exist in the first century and therefore was not founded by Jesus Christ! :nope: **
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Please prove that the Catholic Church (or Roman rite) did not exist. I might add that by your own logic you are not in the Church Christ founded. The Bible also did not exist in the first century so it too is false and could not have been from Jesus.

Logic or ILL-logic?

Because we did not name an insect untill receantly, by your logic that insect did not exist untill it had its present name? Because the United States of America did not have that name untill later in the Revelutionary War, then we must not be part of the same group that started the Revelution?

Are there any groups or companies you know of that have changed their name? Can we change our name without changing the group?
 
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dennisknapp:
Ok, now let’s think this one through…

“Bible” Christians claim that their Church is MORE like the early Church then say the Roman Catholic Church, correct?

So, let’s see how this logic plays out, shall we.
  1. Early Christian were more like the “Bible” Christians of today, then say the Roman Catholic Church.
  2. We have historical records of these early Christian by way of pagans, Jews and the early Christians themselves.
  3. In the historical records is revealed what early Christians thought, believed and practiced.
  4. In the historical records it reveals what the early Christians thought, believed and practiced is in line with Roman Catholic Teaching.
Therefore, premise 1 is false.

I love logic

Peace
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If you truly love logic, I suggest you start using it! Read the New Testament to discover what the first Christians believed!

I believe the problem lies with your misunderstanding of the definition of the Church, which occurs when the concepts of “organism” and “organization” are blurred.

Composed of all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Church is a living, breathing, growing organism–not a static organization, hobbled by iron-clad traditions! When the Lord Jesus said that He would build His Church, He wasn’t revealing a blueprint for building a rigidly structured ecclesiastical organization with multi-tiered levels of power and authority! No way! Jesus had real people in mind! His Church is described as His Body and His Bride! Our Lord was looking forward to a living, growing, vibrant relationship with His redeemed people–a restoration of the loving fellowship between God and the people He had created in His own image.
Although there must be a structure of authority and spiritual leadership within each individual local church, the New Testament does not describe the universal Church as a hierarchical, structured organization. The Church universal, as the living, growing, active Body of Christ, is compared to the human body in many places in Scripture. (Read 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4.) The healthy human body is a living, growing, active organism, with myriad complex characteristics and functions. Each part of the human body has its part to play. There is no “hierarchy” in the body’s parts. Ultimately, the “head” (brain) “calls all the shots” for the proper functioning of the body.

In the same way, the universal Church is a living, growing, active organism, with many different “parts,” and Christ is the “Head” (Ephesians 4:15-16). Every local church is unique, with its own characteristics and mission. As important “Body parts,” each individual believer and each local church should receive direction from, and should answer directly to, Christ, the Head of the Body. An individual Christian can best practice this truth of the unity of the Body of Christ by first being non-sectarian, and second, by being actively involved in a Christ-honoring, Bible-teaching local church that takes its direction straight from the Head of the Body.

👋
 
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Malachi4U:
Please prove that the Catholic Church (or Roman rite) did not exist. I might add that by your own logic you are not in the Church Christ founded. The Bible also did not exist in the first century so it too is false and could not have been from Jesus.

Logic or ILL-logic?

Because we did not name an insect untill receantly, by your logic that insect did not exist untill it had its present name? Because the United States of America did not have that name untill later in the Revelutionary War, then we must not be part of the same group that started the Revelution?

Are there any groups or companies you know of that have changed their name? Can we change our name without changing the group?
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Before I answer your question, show me in the Scriptures where Jesus founded the Roman Catholic Church! Show me where Mary was exhalted as in Catholicism, the dead are prayed for and to, Christ is offered over and over again as a sacrifice, Mary ascended into heaven, was sinless, is our Mediator, Purgatory, Indulgences etc. etc. 🙂
 
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John1717:
If you truly love logic, I suggest you start using it! Read the New Testament to discover what the first Christians believed!

I believe the problem lies with your misunderstanding of the definition of the Church, which occurs when the concepts of “organism” and “organization” are blurred.

Composed of all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Church is a living, breathing, growing organism–not a static organization, hobbled by iron-clad traditions! When the Lord Jesus said that He would build His Church, He wasn’t revealing a blueprint for building a rigidly structured ecclesiastical organization with multi-tiered levels of power and authority! No way! Jesus had real people in mind! His Church is described as His Body and His Bride! Our Lord was looking forward to a living, growing, vibrant relationship with His redeemed people–a restoration of the loving fellowship between God and the people He had created in His own image.
Although there must be a structure of authority and spiritual leadership within each individual local church, the New Testament does not describe the universal Church as a hierarchical, structured organization. The Church universal, as the living, growing, active Body of Christ, is compared to the human body in many places in Scripture. (Read 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4.) The healthy human body is a living, growing, active organism, with myriad complex characteristics and functions. Each part of the human body has its part to play. There is no “hierarchy” in the body’s parts. Ultimately, the “head” (brain) “calls all the shots” for the proper functioning of the body.

In the same way, the universal Church is a living, growing, active organism, with many different “parts,” and Christ is the “Head” (Ephesians 4:15-16). Every local church is unique, with its own characteristics and mission. As important “Body parts,” each individual believer and each local church should receive direction from, and should answer directly to, Christ, the Head of the Body. An individual Christian can best practice this truth of the unity of the Body of Christ by first being non-sectarian, and second, by being actively involved in a Christ-honoring, Bible-teaching local church that takes its direction straight from the Head of the Body.

👋
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So, you dealt with my argument --how? I gave you a coherent argument and you respond with a bunch of theological assertions…

If you will please follow the argument, it says that IF “biblical” Christianity is more in line with the early Church there SHOULD be some evidence for it. If not, the original premise is false. The argument is know as a reductio ad absurdum. If you don’t know what that means its a,

1 : disproof of a proposition by showing an absurdity to which it leads when carried to its logical conclusion

Which my argument shows.

Peace
 
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John1717:
Before I answer your question, show me in the Scriptures where Jesus founded the Roman Catholic Church! Show me where Mary was exhalted as in Catholicism, the dead are prayed for and to, Christ is offered over and over again as a sacrifice, Mary ascended into heaven, was sinless, is our Mediator, Purgatory, Indulgences etc. etc. 🙂
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Christ being offered as a sacrifice again and again? :hmmm:

This is Catholicism you are trying to refute, right? Well, if you are you better get some fact straight or you will look foolish.

Peace
 
This has become such a big thread. I’m not sure that I can add to it.

The essence of Born-Again-ism seems to be, “I’m saved,” meaning, “I’ve made it!”

It’s not a gauging of probabilities. It’s, “I’ve made it.” No ifs, ands or buts.

In my opinion, this perspective is sinful.

In my opinion, this perspective is the intended target of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, in Luke 18…

9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10 “Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ 13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

In this parable, the Pharisee is clearly a solid citizen. He prays. He thanks God. He fasts twice a week. He ***tithes ***on ALL of his income, not on just what is left after taxes.

The story presumes that we know about tax collectors.

Tax collectors collected taxes by force – typically, whatever they could get by force – frequently, rape and murder by their thugs.

So, in Jesus’ parable, that tax collector is a disgusting human being – as low as one could get. He is not secretly a good person.

Now, note the DIFFERENCE between the really good Pharisee and the really disgusting publican: The publican is praying, “O God, be merciful to me a sinner. O God, be merciful to me a sinner. O God, be merciful to me a sinner.”

Clearly, he does NOT believe that he is “saved.”

The pharisee, on the other hand, prays, “O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector.” Clearly, he believes that he IS “saved.”

The thinking of which is closer to that of a “Born-Againer”?

Who does Christ regard as being “justified” – having been made Heaven-eligible by the grace of the cross?
 
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John1717:
Before I answer your question, show me in the Scriptures where Jesus founded the Roman Catholic Church! Show me where Mary was exhalted as in Catholicism, the dead are prayed for and to, Christ is offered over and over again as a sacrifice, Mary ascended into heaven, was sinless, is our Mediator, Purgatory, Indulgences etc. etc. 🙂
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Hi John! 👋

You’ve been mistaught about Catholic teaching by people who were, no doubt, very sincere about what they were teaching you. However, the fact that you hold the somewhat common misconception that Christ is sacrificed over and over again at Mass leads me to believe that you may also have been mistaught about some of the other things you’ve listed above.

I’ve love to help clear up some of the misconceptions that you may unknowingly have. Not to convince you of the truth of Catholic teaching (you may still disagree with it) but just so that if you’re going to disagree with Catholic teaching that you’ll be disagreeing with something the Church actually teaches rather than a misunderstanding of it.

If you’re interested in a dialogue please e-mail me at Catholic4aReason@aol.com. I really look forward to hearing from you!

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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MariaG:
This is from a previous thread. A desire for better communication was indicated. Definition of term is the starting point:
forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=329726#post329726

I edited out the other terms. I feel the discussion is best when sticking to one subject. Born Again is enough for now:)

My reply:
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Call me crazy, but I think “born again” is actually the less accurate translation. Nicodemus seemed to take it as Jesus was saying “born again”. However, Jesus appears to correct him to the use of the phrase he used. The translation that I believe is more accurate is being “born from above”. We see this episode in Jn 3:3-5. This also connects being “born from above” to baptism. We also know that faith and baptism are intertwined. Thus, through faith and baptism we are “born from above”. This is our initial justification.
 
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John1717:
Before I answer your question, show me in the Scriptures where Jesus founded the Roman Catholic Church! Show me where Mary was exhalted as in Catholicism, the dead are prayed for and to, Christ is offered over and over again as a sacrifice, Mary ascended into heaven, was sinless, is our Mediator, Purgatory, Indulgences etc. etc. 🙂
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John1717, how can something that is eternal be repeated? Check out 2 Maccabbees 12:38-46 for prayer for the dead. Secondly, God is “God of the living” not God of the dead. Finally, if I showed you where in Scripture, you would just deny the interpretation, so what difference does it make to keep throwing around Scriptural references. You aren’t really looking for the truth, you are looking for something to argue against. That being said, try Mt 16:16-19, Jn 21:15-19. These establish the unique authority given to Peter. The Church in which Peter was granted by Christ’s authority as “Rock” and “Shepherd”. There is only one Church that both claims this and can trace through historical records. That is the Catholic Church.
 
👋 Dan, Nancy,

Sorry for abandoning things for awhile.

I haven’t read the 2nd page, but I did wade through the 3rd.

I think you both are on the right track. Why don’t one of you start a new thread with some choice clips ie, the definition that was agreed on?

I would say that it is your guys’ thread now but a new thread could help get the focus back on target.

Again, sorry for leaving for so long.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
 
MariaG said:
👋 Dan, Nancy,

Sorry for abandoning things for awhile.

I haven’t read the 2nd page, but I did wade through the 3rd.

I think you both are on the right track. Why don’t one of you start a new thread with some choice clips ie, the definition that was agreed on?

I would say that it is your guys’ thread now but a new thread could help get the focus back on target.

Again, sorry for leaving for so long.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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Hello MariaG
I have been looking for you and praying for you.
Welcome back.
Christ be with you
edwinG
 
Thanks EdwinG!

You have been greatly in my prayers! Sorry to have left when I did. But it was necessary.

Your sister in Christ,

Maria

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I can’t seem to find again the time that at least a few agreed on a definition of ***what ***born again is. Can anyone else find it and can we move it to a new thread or forward again since other things have muddied the waters?
 
**BORN AGAIN" THE BIBLE WAY **

The only biblical use of the term “born again” occurs in John 3:3-5 — although, as we shall see, similar and related expressions such as “new birth” and ,regeneration” occur elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, 23). In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” The Greek expression translated “born again” (gennathei anothen) also means “born from above.” Jesus, it seems, makes a play on words with Nicodemus, contrasting earthly life, or what theologians would later dub natural life (“what is born of flesh”), with the new life of heaven, or what they would later call supernatural life (“what is born of Spirit”).

Nicodemus’ reply: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (John 3:4). Does he simply mistake Jesus to be speaking literally or is Nicodemus himself answering figuratively, meaning, “How can an old man learn new ways as if he were a child again?” We cannot say for sure, but in any case Jesus answers, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.”’ (John 3:5-7).

Here Jesus equates “born again” or “born from above” with “born of water and the Spirit.” If, as the Catholic Church has always held, being “born of water and the Spirit” refers to baptism, then it follows that being “born again” or “born from above” means being baptized. Clearly, the context implies that born of “water and the Spirit” refers to baptism. The Evangelist tells us that immediately after talking with Nicodemus, Jesus took his disciples into the wilderness where they baptized people (John 3:22). Furthermore, water is closely linked to the Spirit throughout John’s Gospel (for instance, in Jesus’ encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:9-13) and in the Johannine tradition (cf. 1 John 5:7). It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that John the Evangelist understands Jesus’ words about being “born again” and “born of water and the Spirit” to have a sacramental, baptismal meaning THIS IS AN INTERESTING ARTICLE. BLESS YOU ALL
 
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