Define "Supremacy"

[Fr_Ambrose]

Traditional Ang:

Most of that has been accomplished by carrying out this “Great Commission” or by the process of evangelization. It was NOT done by “Sheep Stealing”,

Read the history of the creation of the Unia which saw approximatedly 20 million Orthodox stolen by the Roman Catholic Church. Read the history of the Second World War in the Balkans which saw approximately 300,000 Orthodox stolen by Rome and converted under threat of death…

How have the various autonomous Orthodox Churches participated in fulfilling this commandment of our Lord? What have they done to make disciples of all Nations?

Numbers do not define truth, or we would all be Muslims or Arians

Orthodox number about 300 million which makes us the second largest Church after Rome. That’s not bad for a Church which has been under intense persecution for longer periods of time than any Church on earth. We are now returning to the West where, for eaxmple in the UK, we have a faster growth rate than the JW’s and the Mormons, and in Ireland we have grown suficiently to displace the Methodists as the fourth major Christian group. All over the world, freed of the constraints of Islam (the Greeks) and Communism (Russia, Eastern Europe) Orthodoxy is making a quiet success of its missionary work. — Japan, Alaska, Kenya, Uganda, Indonesia, China…etc.

But I think that your question was only rhetorical and you may not be seeking the truth of the matter, but only to point out Rome’s undeniable numerical superiority?

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

Persecution is not the only factor that can reduce Church membership. Ideological threats can also do that. You had your persecutions, and we had our ideological threats and share of persecutions (Protestantism, modernism, anti-clerical animus in many countries). I’d say Catholicism’s losses are just as great as Orthodoxy’s. And, still, our growth has far exceeded your own.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

And, still, our growth has far exceeded your own

Yes, the Muslims make the same claim that their numbers validate their faith and demonstrate that God approves of it. I see that enormous numbers of Catholics are becoming Muslims in France, Belgium, etc.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

I’m not talking about numbers. I’m talking about growth. Michael was speaking of the missionary dimension of the faith.

I’m interested to know, are there any Orthodox martyrs of Japan or China? Are there any records of attempts by Orthodox to convert the Muslims? I’m asking this sincerely, just for want of knowledge.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

I’m interested to know, are there any Orthodox martyrs of Japan

No. Orthodoxy was so thoroughly inculturated in Japan that during the time of persecution against Catholics and the other Protestant denominations, Orthodoxy was left in peace. The largest Orthodox cathedral in Tokyo, called Nikolai-Do (Saint Nicholas Temple) is situated in the middle on Tokyo on the university campus. Here is a photo

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

or China?

Yes, there are hundreds of Chinese Orthodox Martyrs.
Chinese Orthodoxy on the Web

saintjonah.org/services/chinese.htm

There is a lot on information on the Web about Orthodoxy in Japan and in China but it is in Russian since these countries were missionised by the Russian Church
chinese.orthodoxy.ru/russian/chinaR.htm

http://www.saintdemetriosgoc.com/sd/ChineseMartyrsBoxerReb.jpg

Are there any records of attempts by Orthodox to convert the Muslims? I’m asking this sincerely, just for want of knowledge

Yes, in the borderlands where Orthodoxy bumps up against Muslim areas… Bosnia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., and more recently in some countries of Africa which are being missionised by both the Church of Alexandria and the Church of Greece.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

Thanks for the info. It’s a blessing to hear of Orthodoxy’s activity among the Muslims.

God bless,

Greg

 

[mtr01]

Fr Ambrose:

I don’t see the problem. The Church of Rome takes the same attitude to us. I would not apply the hypocrite verses to them. They are simply maintaining the integrity of their outlook, just as the Orthodox are. Why should that get them a :bigyikes:

I wasn’t referring to any “official” Church attitude. It’s just that the terms *heretics, apostasy, *and whatnot get bandied about here on this forum like they are matters of fact, and not opinion. I guess your post just brought it to head for me (not that you are the only one who is guilty of this).

 

[Orthodoc]

[All over the world, freed of the constraints of Islam (the Greeks) and Communism (Russia, Eastern Europe) Orthodoxy is making a quiet success of its missionary work. — Japan, Alaska, Kenya, Uganda, Indonesia, China…etc.]

Exactly! For more information you all might want to access the OCMC website which consists of joint missionary projects of the SCOBA jurisdictions here in the U.S. -

ocmc.org/

Check out the Mission Teams we have in all parts of the world. Teams which are not only Evangelizing the pagans but helping to rebiud the Church that was so persecuted under communism. Albania is a perfect example where not only are those from a Christian background returning to the Church but those from a Moselm background also.

My own parish here in the states is part of the SAMP (Support A Missionary Priest) program. We pay the annual salary of a native missionary priest in Uganda to enable him to devote his full time to not only supporting his existing flock but do missionary work amongst the natives also.

You might also want to check out the website of IOCC (International Orthodox Christian Charities) to see the aid they are providing to the needy around the world regardless of religion or background -

iocc.org/

My favorite charity is connected with OCMC. Which is a program in Mexico. In the summer months young Orthodox Catholics from all over America gather in Mexico and spend a fewweeks building houses for the homeless in the border towns. I donate on a monthly basis to St innocents Boys Orphange with is sponsored by the OCMC. In Mexico when an orphan boy reaches the teenage years the government forces them to leave the orphanges and fend for themselves. St Innocents literally picks them off the street and provides an education and a trade for them to rely on.

Orthodoc

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

Read the history of the creation of the Unia which saw approximatedly 20 million Orthodox stolen by the Roman Catholic Church. Read the history of the Second World War in the Balkans which saw approximately 300,000 Orthodox stolen by Rome and converted under threat of death…

Stolen by Rome? 20 million? Then 300,000 Orthodox? Converted under threat of death in creation of the unia?

You’ve been peddling this view of uniatism in other places. I can’t improve on the answer that has already been given you by Mary. I think she answered you perfectly.

catholic-forum.com/dcforum/saints/233.html

Don’t be so ready to believe everything anti-Catholic. You made your points based on the internal link you added on your post and Mary showed, your link and the conclusions didn’t stand up to reason or history. The real victim was a martyr, and the culprits in crime, who you call “victims” became Catholics on their own volition. NOT because they were forced.

 

[steve_b]

Orthodoc:

Ecumenical Council - An Ecumenical Council is an assembly of representatives from the entire Church, legally convoked, for settling controversies in doctrine, formulating dogma, and setting canons of faith and morals.

Orthodoc

For a thorough look

newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm

 

[Orthodoc]

The Orthodox Church In The History Of Russia - by * Professor Dimitry Pospielovsky

(*) Dimitry Pospielovsky is Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Western Ontario. He is the author of The Russian Church Under The Soviet Regime, 1917-1982v (SVS Press, 1984) and is one of the foremost authorities on Russian Church History.

Page 93

The laity, the parish clergy, and particularly the brotherhoods refused to accept the union with Rome. The protest movement developed and spread quickly, joined at first by a single bishop, Gideon (Bolodan) of Lvov. The Polish King gave in to these pressures and authorized the convening of a local council of those bishops, clergy and laity of the Roman and Greek Church who accepted the papacy --i.e. those who did not accept the Unia were not invited.

The Council met in the city of Brest on October 6, 1596. In order to prevent a parallel Orthodox council in any of the numerious Orthodox Churches in the city, the now Uniate Metropolitan of Kiev sealed all Orthodox Churches on the day before the Council was to begin, except for the cathedral where the Council was to take place. The Orthodox, nevertheless, converged on Brest as well, with prince Ostrozhskii and his private army at the head. Failing to find an open church, and after waiting in vain for an invitation from the Uniates, they accepted an offer of a Protestant church school for a separate Orthodox Council. The Uniate Council passed a resolution excommunicating all the Orthodox clergy and laity participating in the Orthodox Council. The Orthodox in turn suspended all the clergy and lay participants in the Uniate Council and addressed a petition to the King, asking him to deprive “the traitors” of their dioceses and parishes. But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.

Page 96

The Polish government could ill afford continuous persecutions of the Orthodox. A war with Turkey loomed on the horizon, and in 1621 the Cossacks presented an ultimatum to the Polish Crown, stating that unless all persecutions of the Orthodox Church ceased, they would refuse to fight the Turks. In response, the 1623 Sejm declared toleration of the Orthodox Church and permitted the legitimization of Orthodox bishops and the restoration of their dioceses.

========

But the joy of the Orthodox was short-lived. The legalization of the Orthodox Church resulted in mass return to Orthodoxy especially in Eastern Belorussia. This resulted in mass attacks on Orthodox households and Churches led by bishop Josaphat (Kuntsevish). The citizens revolted which resulted in Josaphat’s death.

Roman Catholic revenge was immediate and brutal. All Orthodox Churches were once again confiscated or closed. Everywhere in the commonwealth the Orthodox lost the right not only to build but to repair churches; Pope Urban VII proclaimed that any Roman Catholic who dared to oppose the use of the sword against the Orthodox would be excommunicated.

=======

Orthodoc

 

[Orthodoc]

[Don’t be so ready to believe everything anti-Catholic. You made your points based on the internal link you added on your post and Mary showed, your link and the conclusions didn’t stand up to reason or history. The real victim was a martyr, and the culprits in crime, who you call “victims” became Catholics on their own volition. NOT because they were forced.]

There were 33 articles that were asked for and requested by the Orthodox side before the Unia could be signed. If the Unia was the will of the people and the clergy & people were so free as Orthodox Catholics to practice their faith, then perhaps you can explain why the following articles were asked for be any Unia could take place -

=======

Article 22-27:

That the Romans should not forbid us to ring bells in our churches on Good Friday, both in the cities and everywhere else.

That we should not be forbidden to visit the sick with the Most Holy Mysteries, publicly, with lights and vestments, according to our rubrics.

That without any interference we might be free to hold processions, as many as are required, on holy days, according to our custom.

**That our Rus’ monasteries and churches should not be changed into Roman Catholic churches. And if any Roman Catholic has damaged or destroyed one of our churches or monasteries, in his territory, he shall be obliged to repair it or build a new one for the exclusive use of the Rus’ people.
**The spiritual Church Brotherhoods which have recently been erected by the Patriarchs and confirmed by the King’s Grace - for example, those in L’viv, in Brest’, in Vilnius, and elsewhere - in which we see great benefit for the Church of God and the cultivation of divine worship if they wish to abide in this unity, shall ne maintained in all their integrity under the obedience of their Metropolitain and of the bishops in whose dioceses they function and to whom each of them is properly ascribed.

That we shall be free to have schools and seminaries in the Greek and Church-Slavonic languages in the localities where it is most convenient, and that our printing-presses shall be free (of course under the supervision of the Metropolitain and bishops, so that no heresies be propagated and nothing be printed without the knowledge and consent of the Metropolitain and bishops).

[What kind of freedom of religion is this?]

Article 32:

We have heard that some have departed for Greece to procure ecclesiastical powers and return here to advise and influence the clergy and extend their jurisdiction over us. We, therefore, request the King’s Grace to order precautions to be taken on the state borders so that anyone bearing such jurisdictions and excommunications be barred from entering the kingdom. **Otherwise, grave misunderstandings could arise between the pastors and the flocks of the Church. **

[If the average Orthodox was aware of what happened why would they be asking for the borders to be closed? What kind of misunderstandings between pastors & their flocks were they afraid of?]

Orthodoc

 

[steve_b]

[Don’t be so ready to believe everything anti-Catholic. You made your points based on the internal link you added on your post and Mary showed, your link and the conclusions didn’t stand up to reason or history. The real victim was a martyr, and the culprits in crime, who you call “victims” became Catholics on their own volition. NOT because they were forced.]

There were 33 articles that were asked for and requested by the Orthodox side before the Unia could be signed. If the Unia was the will of the people and the clergy & people were so free as Orthodox Catholics to practice their faith, then perhaps you can explain why the following articles were asked for be any Unia could take place -

=======

Article 22-27:

That the Romans should not forbid us to ring bells in our churches on Good Friday, both in the cities and everywhere else.

That we should not be forbidden to visit the sick with the Most Holy Mysteries, publicly, with lights and vestments, according to our rubrics.

That without any interference we might be free to hold processions, as many as are required, on holy days, according to our custom.

**That our Rus’ monasteries and churches should not be changed into Roman Catholic churches. And if any Roman Catholic has damaged or destroyed one of our churches or monasteries, in his territory, he shall be obliged to repair it or build a new one for the exclusive use of the Rus’ people. **
The spiritual Church Brotherhoods which have recently been erected by the Patriarchs and confirmed by the King’s Grace - for example, those in L’viv, in Brest’, in Vilnius, and elsewhere - in which we see great benefit for the Church of God and the cultivation of divine worship if they wish to abide in this unity, shall ne maintained in all their integrity under the obedience of their Metropolitain and of the bishops in whose dioceses they function and to whom each of them is properly ascribed.

That we shall be free to have schools and seminaries in the Greek and Church-Slavonic languages in the localities where it is most convenient, and that our printing-presses shall be free (of course under the supervision of the Metropolitain and bishops, so that no heresies be propagated and nothing be printed without the knowledge and consent of the Metropolitain and bishops).

[What kind of freedom of religion is this?]

Article 32:

We have heard that some have departed for Greece to procure ecclesiastical powers and return here to advise and influence the clergy and extend their jurisdiction over us. We, therefore, request the King’s Grace to order precautions to be taken on the state borders so that anyone bearing such jurisdictions and excommunications be barred from entering the kingdom. **Otherwise, grave misunderstandings could arise between the pastors and the flocks of the Church. **

[If the average Orthodox was aware of what happened why would they be asking for the borders to be closed? What kind of misunderstandings between pastors & their flocks were they afraid of?]

Orthodoc

What is the source for this? Whose articles are they?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

What is the source for this? Whose articles are they?

archeparchy.ca/history/union_of_brest.htm

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5351

 

[Orthodoc]

[What is the source for this? Whose articles are they?]

They are part of the 33 articles contained in the ‘Union of Brest’ which created the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1596.

You can read the entire Agreement at the following Ukrainian Catholic website -

jbburnett.com/resources/union-of-brest.html

Orthodoc

 

[GAssisi]

Why do people tarry on these issues? Whatever happened to the Orthodox under the Poles happened to the Catholics under the Russians. Catholics can match the Orthodox, martyr for martyr, dictator for dictator, and what good would that do for the propagation of the FAITH? Why don’t we just leave these alone and focus on theological matters?

God bless,

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

Why do people tarry on these issues?

Why don’t we just leave these alone and focus on theological matters?

For the answer to this, you need only take up the writings of Pope John Paul on the importance of the healing of memories. The theological dialogue with the Roman Catholics has this as an ineluctable component of the dialogue.

 

[steve_b]

steve b:

What is the source for this? Whose articles are they?

Orthodoc:

They are part of the 33 articles contained in the ‘Union of Brest’ which created the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1596.

Orthodoc

Thanks to you and Fr Ambrose for furnishing the source. Now I can attempt to answer your questions. You wrote
orthodec:

There were 33 articles that were asked for and requested by the Orthodox side before the Unia could be signed. If the Unia was the will of the people and the clergy & people were so free as Orthodox Catholics to practice their faith, then perhaps you can explain why the following articles were asked for be any Unia could take place -

looking over the articles, who is it that is insisting on these articles be met before the agreement is signed?
orthodec:

Article 22-27:

That the Romans should not forbid us to ring bells in our churches on Good Friday, both in the cities and everywhere else.

That we should not be forbidden to visit the sick with the Most Holy Mysteries, publicly, with lights and vestments, according to our rubrics.

That without any interference we might be free to hold processions, as many as are required, on holy days, according to our custom.

I’ve not heard of bell ringing forbidden by Rome. We have tons of bells. Nor the forbidding of a sacrament, nor forbidding processions. Rome is very big on preserving customs of other peoples as well. The Orthodox on the other hand, are not so lenient.
orthodec:

**That our Rus’ monasteries and churches should not be changed into Roman Catholic churches. And if any Roman Catholic has damaged or destroyed one of our churches or monasteries, in his territory, he shall be obliged to repair it or build a new one for the exclusive use of the Rus’ people.
**The spiritual Church Brotherhoods which have recently been erected by the Patriarchs and confirmed by the King’s Grace - for example, those in L’viv, in Brest’, in Vilnius, and elsewhere - in which we see great benefit for the Church of God and the cultivation of divine worship if they wish to abide in this unity, shall ne maintained in all their integrity under the obedience of their Metropolitain and of the bishops in whose dioceses they function and to whom each of them is properly ascribed.

All this sounds like needless worry, knowing how the Church operates…

By the way, when were these articles you posted agreed upon?
orthodec:

That we shall be free to have schools and seminaries in the Greek and Church-Slavonic languages in the localities where it is most convenient, and that our printing-presses shall be free (of course under the supervision of the Metropolitain and bishops, so that no heresies be propagated and nothing be printed without the knowledge and consent of the Metropolitain and bishops).

[What kind of freedom of religion is this?]

It sounds to me like they didn’t have this freedom currently, and were asking for reassurance of these freedoms from Rome BEFORE the signing. Otherwise why accept Rome and the pope? They could stay where they are and enjoy all these, without any problem. Or could they? The Orthodox hands when it comes to persecution aren’t clean you know. We haven’t begun to examine you yet.
orthodec:

Article 32:

We have heard that some have departed for Greece to procure ecclesiastical powers and return here to advise and influence the clergy and extend their jurisdiction over us. We, therefore, request the King’s Grace to order precautions to be taken on the state borders so that anyone bearing such jurisdictions and excommunications be barred from entering the kingdom. **Otherwise, grave misunderstandings could arise between the pastors and the flocks of the Church. **

[If the average Orthodox was aware of what happened why would they be asking for the borders to be closed? What kind of misunderstandings between pastors & their flocks were they afraid of?]

Ask YOURSELF that question in return. Why is all this necessary?

1. No one is forcing either party to sign the agreement.
2. Both can walk.
3. Is there a greater motivation on one side to agree over the other?
4. Who is it requesting protection, the borders to be closed, Rome? Nope!!! And closed to whom? Why?

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

For the answer to this, you need only take up the writings of Pope John Paul on the importance of the healing of memories. The theological dialogue with the Roman Catholics has this as an ineluctable component of the dialogue.

In otherwords you won’t forgive AND certainly won’t forget?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

In otherwords you won’t forgive AND certainly won’t forget?

The holy words of Patriarch Paul when he blessed the memorial at the Jasenovac concentration camp, quoting the previous Patriarch Herman who said in 1948: “Prastati moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo.”

“Forgive we must, forget we dare not.”