S
simple_soul
Guest
I have a quick question. Well I hope it’s a quick question. but what is the difference between “absorbed” and “infused”?
- Status
L
Lady_Love
Guest
I think I have to back out of these conversations. It really bothers me that the subject of contemplation can quickly devolve into a “science” rather than a relationship. Intimate relationships surpass the human language, which leaves it open to such controversy. I truly believe that such matters are too sacred to be debated. It never does any justice to the relationship. Over analyzing, I have found, never is a benefit when it comes to relationships.
I had the desire to post the statement to bring clarity, because the “new age,” so called, contemplation mimics very closely the desired Contemplation of God and thought the distinction would be very helpful to guard against falling into a trap. I tried to bring a reliable source to the table for the good of all the good willed individuals who earnestly desire deeper relationship.
Master, Lord, King, Almighty God, we praise you for your generous love, kindness, mercy and compassion. Please guard us from all things that bring about confusion, conflict, competition, and discord of any kind. Please, unite us in your love.
I had the desire to post the statement to bring clarity, because the “new age,” so called, contemplation mimics very closely the desired Contemplation of God and thought the distinction would be very helpful to guard against falling into a trap. I tried to bring a reliable source to the table for the good of all the good willed individuals who earnestly desire deeper relationship.
Master, Lord, King, Almighty God, we praise you for your generous love, kindness, mercy and compassion. Please guard us from all things that bring about confusion, conflict, competition, and discord of any kind. Please, unite us in your love.
S
Sirach2
Guest
I am sorry you feel this way - that discussion of spiritual matters such as this are harmful in any way. St. Teresa told us specifically that having converse with the friends of God is a very good practice. Even in Carmel, we share and discuss these Carmelite saints in our monthly meetings, to better understand our vocation and our saints’ teachings. May God enlighten you.
S
Sirach2
Guest
simple soul:
(Pg. 32, Introduction) The Mother Foundress had observed in her own communities that when physical strength is weakened through austerities, a kind of delightful absorption may so overpower a nun that she will allow it to possess her for long hours and even days, not wanting to part with such delight. Teresa carefully demonstrates in this work on her foundations how such absorption differs from rapture which is short-lived and extraordinarily beneficial in its effects. On the other hand, the long periods of time spent in the above mentioned absorption, she warns, are a waste; if austerities have caused the weakness, the must be reduced. (ch. 6)
Authentic contemplation, on the other hand, is short, usually no longer than an Ave (hail Mary), she says. God infuses, independent of any desire of the soul to bring it about (which is impossible), a heavenly gift of Himself to the soul which is joy beyond all telling. As the spirituality of the soul is enabled to receive such favors, this gift will begin with infused “recollection” and advance to deeper infillings from God, if it remains faithful.
Bear in mind that this gift may not be received again for many years after the soul progresses into deeper spirituality. It is granted only when God is pleased to bestow it, and in the soul’s capacity to receive.
I hope this is not too difficult to grasp, but if you have more questions, some of us may be able to help you.
From St. Teresa’s “Foundations.”
(Pg. 32, Introduction) The Mother Foundress had observed in her own communities that when physical strength is weakened through austerities, a kind of delightful absorption may so overpower a nun that she will allow it to possess her for long hours and even days, not wanting to part with such delight. Teresa carefully demonstrates in this work on her foundations how such absorption differs from rapture which is short-lived and extraordinarily beneficial in its effects. On the other hand, the long periods of time spent in the above mentioned absorption, she warns, are a waste; if austerities have caused the weakness, the must be reduced. (ch. 6)
Authentic contemplation, on the other hand, is short, usually no longer than an Ave (hail Mary), she says. God infuses, independent of any desire of the soul to bring it about (which is impossible), a heavenly gift of Himself to the soul which is joy beyond all telling. As the spirituality of the soul is enabled to receive such favors, this gift will begin with infused “recollection” and advance to deeper infillings from God, if it remains faithful.
Bear in mind that this gift may not be received again for many years after the soul progresses into deeper spirituality. It is granted only when God is pleased to bestow it, and in the soul’s capacity to receive.
I hope this is not too difficult to grasp, but if you have more questions, some of us may be able to help you.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes distinctions are helpful!
But it is important to note that contemplation does fall under a “science” so thus it will likely get discussed here as such often.
Indeed Theology is the queen of the sciences
Spiritual Theology is the branch of Theology that studies the nature etc of Contemplation.
Yes prayer is very much about relationships!
But still an area of study and of science. Though we may not as you note always find the best way to discuss or the words to use --indeed theology has worked on such language for centuries.
As I noted Theologians of various orthodox schools have been discussing these matters from their particular schools and thought for a long time…and differing usages for terms etc get used…
One can study other relationships too --such as in “Love and Responsibility” by Bl. Pope John Paul II (prior to being Pope).
It is important to seek as you were seeking --to “distinguish” and to seek the right approach. Without sound theological science (without good distinctions)— without orthodox and orthoprax approaches – one can yes --end up in what you have been seeking to avoid --that is “new age” and other errors.
(the CDF issued this document to the Bishops of the Church: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html )
B
Bookcat
Guest
And thus break out the disagreements over the use of the term “contemplation”
There are more kinds of “authentic contemplation” than the infused…
(the first half of the 20th century knew these disagreements very well…)
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes distinctions are helpful!
But it is important to note that contemplation falls under a “science” so thus it will likely get discussed here as such often.
Indeed Theology is the queen of the sciences
Spiritual Theology is the branch of Theology that studies the nature etc of Contemplation.
Yes prayer is very much about relationships!
But still an area of study and of science. Though we may not as you note always find the best way to discuss or the words to use --indeed theology has worked on such language for centuries.
As I noted Theologians of various orthodox schools have been discussing these matters from their particular schools and thought for a long time…and differing usages for terms etc get used…
One can study other relationships too --such as in “Love and Responsibility” by Bl. Pope John Paul II (prior to being Pope).
It is important to seek as you were seeking --to “distinguish” and to seek the right approach. Without sound theological science (without good distinctions)— without orthodox and orthoprax approaches – one can yes --end up in what you have been seeking to avoid --that is “new age” and other errors.
(the CDF issued this document to the Bishops of the Church: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html )
V
Viola_Incognita
Guest
H
hazcompat
Guest
Rays of Divine Glory
In whose resplendent rays
The caves of sense—profound abyss—
Which once were dark, bereft of sight,
With rarest beauty unite
In gift for the Belov’d, warmth and light. "
The soul overflows with gratitude for the graces she has received through union with God. Her senses and faculties, once blind and in darkness, are now illuminated and inflamed through her knowledge of God which is aglow with love. Therefore she can give back to her Beloved both light and love; this fills her with delight.
Stein, Edith (2011-03-17). The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) (Kindle Locations 3511-3512). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
Peace
- In the Reflected Rays of Divine Glory
In whose resplendent rays
The caves of sense—profound abyss—
Which once were dark, bereft of sight,
With rarest beauty unite
In gift for the Belov’d, warmth and light. "
The soul overflows with gratitude for the graces she has received through union with God. Her senses and faculties, once blind and in darkness, are now illuminated and inflamed through her knowledge of God which is aglow with love. Therefore she can give back to her Beloved both light and love; this fills her with delight.
Stein, Edith (2011-03-17). The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) (Kindle Locations 3511-3512). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
Peace
S
simple_soul
Guest
Thank you Sirach I beleive it helps but just a few clarifications.
Thank you for your help…
God Bless you too
. Are the austerities like fasting or something too much so as to weeken ones self but at the same time have a certen kind of high like one gets when their blood sugar levels get too low and they become week from it?
I beleive this helps. It’s just that I guess I always thought infused and obsorbed where synonymous. Not sure why I thought that but since you are saying there is a difference I can see now why trying to understand this has been kind of confusing for me.
Thank you for your help…
God Bless you too
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
There are degrees of contemplation and often acquired contemplation is the beginning.
St Teresa’s Interior Castle presents how a soul is drawn into the various mansions and sometimes move ahead in one area and backwards in another area of their spiritual life.
God transforms the soul through grace. When and where he gives this grace we open ourselves to God to do as He sees fit.
Jim
S
Sirach2
Guest
Yes. In Chapter 6:14 that the Introduction referred to, she says this:
There was a nun there who was no less virtuous than those mentioned. Through disciplines and fasts, she became so weak that each time she received communion or had occasion to be enkindled in devotion, she would immediately fall to the floor and there remain for eight or nine hours. It seemed to her and everyone else that she was experiencing a rapture. This happened so often that if a remedy had not been provided, much harm would have resulted.
I understood its nature and I feared almost where it would end up. Her confessor was a close friend of mine and he came to tell me about it. I told him what I understood and why the absorption was a waste of time and couldn’t possibley be a rapture, but the result of weakness.
I told him to take away her fasts and disciplines and to distract her. She was obedient; she did as he said. As soon as she began to gain strength, there was no more thought of rapture. And if indeed the experience had been one of rapture, nothing would have sufficed to prevent it except the will of God.
B
Bookcat
Guest
frjacquesphilippe.com/interview-fr-jacques-philippe
(not getting into the definition etc …but of interest regarding mental prayer (meditation and contemplation)
(not getting into the definition etc …but of interest regarding mental prayer (meditation and contemplation)
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
We don’t use techniques, but we do use methods of prayer. The Rosary is a method of prayer, as well as Quiet Prayer.
In all, we are turning to God dwelling within as an act of love.
Jim
S
simple_soul
Guest
Oh wow…actually I beleive I may have heard this some where before.
Made me purposely brake my fast if I ever started to feel fatigued or week from it like my blood sugar was getting too low or something. used to think there was something wrong with me because I can not seem to fast too well. Now I am almost afraid to ever fast again.
D
DBT
Guest
"Bookcat:
The point I think most posters are trying to make is simply this: what the catechism describes as “contemplation” can best be understood from the acquired point of view. Very few of those notations exclusively relate to the infused understanding … or even primarily so.
What Dan Burke describes is correct … as far as it goes. But it is a far more restrictive definition than what the catechism presents to us. So qualification of terms are indeed needed so that well meaning souls who are “contemplative” in the truest sense of the word are not discouraged that what they experience is somehow not right … or worse in error. And a “literal” juxtaposition of his definition to that of the catechism could indeed lead souls to think that … as we have already seen on this thread.
It is for them and them alone that I write.
Today of all days … the feast of St. Barnabas … we should all do our best to be son’s of encouragement!!
There are contemplative’s amongst us even if they never taste a lick of the infused! Let us all do our best to encourage them along the way!
I know you’re trying to do that … hopefully you can see that all others here are attempting to do the same.
Blessings and peace to you,
Dave
Lady Love, I’m glad you found Bookcat’s link to the catechism’s discussion of contemplation to be helpful. Hopefully this will lead to better understanding on this thread and throughout these forums.
The point I think most posters are trying to make is simply this: what the catechism describes as “contemplation” can best be understood from the acquired point of view.
Very few of those notations exclusively relate to the infused understanding … or even primarily so.What Dan Burke describes is correct … as far as it goes. But it is a far more restrictive definition than what the catechism presents to us. So qualification of terms are indeed needed so that well meaning souls who are “contemplative” in the truest sense of the word are not discouraged that what they experience is somehow not right … or worse in error. And a “literal” juxtaposition of his definition to that of the catechism could indeed lead souls to think that … as we have already seen on this thread.
It is for them and them alone that I write.
Today of all days … the feast of St. Barnabas … we should all do our best to be son’s of encouragement!!
There are contemplative’s amongst us even if they never taste a lick of the infused! Let us all do our best to encourage them along the way!
I know you’re trying to do that … hopefully you can see that all others here are attempting to do the same.
Blessings and peace to you,
Dave
R
Richca
Guest
D
DBT
Guest
By my count there are at least 3 professed Carmelites posting on this thread (myself included). If anyone here could be faulted for taking a more restrictive view of contemplation it would be us … so much of our vocation being wrapped up in all matters infused.
But irony of ironies it is the Carmelites who are taking perhaps the most expansive view of contemplation presented here (and of course Bookcat). It warms my heart
I owe both Carmelite posters a tremendous debt of gratitude as I’ve learned so much from both over the years on these forums … though I’ve never met either in person … and I don’t acknowledge either publicly as often as I should.
One in particular I consider my greatest teacher … more so than even those in my own community … province … or even the many friars I’ve come into contact with over the years. I need not name her by name for God knows who I’m talking about … and He has a special name reserved just for her.
There is much wisdom here on this thread and throughout this forum … for those that have eyes to see.
Dave
But irony of ironies it is the Carmelites who are taking perhaps the most expansive view of contemplation presented here (and of course Bookcat). It warms my heart
I owe both Carmelite posters a tremendous debt of gratitude as I’ve learned so much from both over the years on these forums … though I’ve never met either in person … and I don’t acknowledge either publicly as often as I should.
One in particular I consider my greatest teacher … more so than even those in my own community … province … or even the many friars I’ve come into contact with over the years. I need not name her by name for God knows who I’m talking about … and He has a special name reserved just for her.
There is much wisdom here on this thread and throughout this forum … for those that have eyes to see.
Dave
S
Sirach2
Guest
simple soul:
Maybe that could be your effort, rather than try to fast. It would be easy to fast from favorite things on occasion, or to be cheerful when you are served a morsel that is unpleasant to eat. So many of us complain when food is too cold, too overdone, not enough salt or spices, etc. Follow St. Therese’s practice and eat unto the Lord, and never complain. It will be a most delightful sacrifice pleasing to Him.
May I make a suggestion? I love your user name, and it speaks to me about St. Therese’s Little Way, a simplicity of life, living close to God and offering even the smallest of deeds with perfect love. St. Therese made it her habit never to let anyone else know what kind of food she preferred - she cheerfully ate whatever was presented to her in thanksgiving to God.
Maybe that could be your effort, rather than try to fast. It would be easy to fast from favorite things on occasion, or to be cheerful when you are served a morsel that is unpleasant to eat. So many of us complain when food is too cold, too overdone, not enough salt or spices, etc. Follow St. Therese’s practice and eat unto the Lord, and never complain. It will be a most delightful sacrifice pleasing to Him.
S
simple_soul
Guest
Sounds like a good plan.May I make a suggestion? I love your user name, and it speaks to me about St. Therese’s Little Way, a simplicity of life, living close to God and offering even the smallest of deeds with perfect love. St. Therese made it her habit never to let anyone else know what kind of food she preferred - she cheerfully ate whatever was presented to her in thanksgiving to God.
Maybe that could be your effort, rather than try to fast. It would be easy to fast from favorite things on occasion, or to be cheerful when you are served a morsel that is unpleasant to eat. So many of us complain when food is too cold, too overdone, not enough salt or spices, etc. Follow St. Therese’s practice and eat unto the Lord, and never complain. It will be a most delightful sacrifice pleasing to Him.
I have always loved her littles ways this should help me too.- Status