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ltwin
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It’s called the Regensburg Colloquy, but I don’t know what was actually worked out.
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mrsdizzyd
Guest
You never know with CAF. I didn’t know what it meant either. I was hoping someone would ask. Thanks.
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mrsdizzyd
Guest
It really is very sad.mrsdizzyd:
That’s very sad.
I think what was really going on was that we were OSAS, but our pastor(s) weren’t totally comfortable with what that meant in practical terms. So, they tried to stake out a middle ground, so that we would know that we had to do good deeds and that these deeds were expected of us if we were going to call ourselves Christians.
Luther’s Die Bibel has 74 books. It includes the Prayer of Manasseh. I have a copy ( not an original, of course).
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guanophore
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Yes, this makes most sense to me. I object to the idea of “faith alone” because saving faith is NEVER alone. It is always accompanied by the fruits that befit repentance. St. Paul writes that faith is always in company:
“And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinthians 13:13
My understanding of saving faith is a faith that works. I don’t like the common Catholic formulation that we are saved by “faith and works” because I think it just causes problems with our separated brethren. I was recently accused of being Pelagian on here, for example.
It is more the quality of the faith - it is a faith that is active in love - it produces hope and the fruit of good deeds.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love." Galatians 5:6
If it is a faith that does not produce fruit, and does not work through love, then it is a “dead” faith.
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Wannano
Guest
Someone said “Amen, preach it Brother” somewhere over near my corner!ltwin:
Yes, this makes most sense to me. I object to the idea of “faith alone” because saving faith is NEVER alone. It is always accompanied by the fruits that befit repentance. St. Paul writes that faith is always in company:
“And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinthians 13:13
My understanding of saving faith is a faith that works. I don’t like the common Catholic formulation that we are saved by “faith and works” because I think it just causes problems with our separated brethren. I was recently accused of being Pelagian on here, for example.
It is more the quality of the faith - it is a faith that is active in love - it produces hope and the fruit of good deeds.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love." Galatians 5:6
If it is a faith that does not produce fruit, and does not work through love, then it is a “dead” faith.
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guanophore
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I am not sure that there is a difference here. Luther and Calvin both had a very Catholic perception of authentic faith being lived out in one’s deeds (works). It was not until more modern evangelicals innovated a concept of sola fide that was independent of the sanctified life that it really caused a disconnect. Some even believe they can pray the sinners prayer then "I can do whatever I want, because I am already saved). This was not what the Apostles taught!
I have always been amazed at how Eph. 2:8-10 becomes separated from v. 11. Catholics have always kept these verses together, as the purpose for which we have been saved cannot be separated from being justified before God.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. Eph. 2:8-11
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guanophore
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Surely it was not a Catholic!
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Wannano
Guest
Just a minute…actually he says he is catholic! :hugs:Wannano:
Surely it was not a Catholic!
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Wannano
Guest
Anyone praying the sinners prayer and then believing they can go and enjoy sinning because they are saved is about on the same level as anyone knowingly committing a serious sin and enjoying it because they know they can just go to Confession tomorrow.Tis_Bearself:
I am not sure that there is a difference here. Luther and Calvin both had a very Catholic perception of authentic faith being lived out in one’s deeds (works). It was not until more modern evangelicals innovated a concept of sola fide that was independent of the sanctified life that it really caused a disconnect. Some even believe they can pray the sinners prayer then "I can do whatever I want, because I am already saved). This was not what the Apostles taught!
I have always been amazed at how Eph. 2:8-10 becomes separated from v. 11. Catholics have always kept these verses together, as the purpose for which we have been saved cannot be separated from being justified before God.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. Eph. 2:8-11
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ltwin
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This site summarizes it this way:
This article offers good analysis of the problems with the article on justification from a Protestant perspective: Regensburg and Regensburg II: Trying to Reconcile Irreconcilable Differences on Justification. Apparently, this Catholic-Protestant compromise position has a name: " double justice” ( duplex iustitia ).
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tweedlealice
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Well, there is a simplicity in our Faith’s message. God is! The Trinity exists. Jesus is & came to Earth to open Heaven’s door, again. It was closed when Adam & Eve sinned.We are loved & cherished by our Creator. The Bible is our map, back home to the Father. Our Faith is a free gift. We can’t purchase it! But, Faith w/o Works is dead! A Christian should reflect Christ in Love & Charitable works.
The Holy Spirit calls us to embrace Christ.
The Bibles are the same x for Deutercanniocal books in our Catholic Bibles.
The main differences are that Catholics believe we are the one true church. But, all Christians go to heaven. I know some Protestants, who are Saints!
Another difference is our worship formats. They pulled back from frequent Communion b/c ppl weren’t embracing the Holiness of Communion.
Some believe Communion is a SYMBOL of the Last Supper. Some Protestants believe, the Eucharist is JESUS , as we do. Protestants have Praise Worship Services geared on the Ministers leading from God to teach on a certain topic. Catholics are more rigid w lining up readings related to the Saints days, Religious Holidays. All Catholic Churches, internationally, have the same readings & message.
God bless
Tweedlealice
The Holy Spirit calls us to embrace Christ.
The Bibles are the same x for Deutercanniocal books in our Catholic Bibles.
The main differences are that Catholics believe we are the one true church. But, all Christians go to heaven. I know some Protestants, who are Saints!
Another difference is our worship formats. They pulled back from frequent Communion b/c ppl weren’t embracing the Holiness of Communion.
Some believe Communion is a SYMBOL of the Last Supper. Some Protestants believe, the Eucharist is JESUS , as we do. Protestants have Praise Worship Services geared on the Ministers leading from God to teach on a certain topic. Catholics are more rigid w lining up readings related to the Saints days, Religious Holidays. All Catholic Churches, internationally, have the same readings & message.
God bless
Tweedlealice
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Dhc8_Type
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It also had to do with paying for a church that only a select few would ever see 1000 miles from were they lived.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
A couple of things I think I would say is that no where in the Bible does it say we are justified by faith alone. No where. As a matter of fact the only place it says anything about faith alone is in James and it says we are NOT justified by faith alone but also works. Martin Luther added the word alone in the book of Romans to fit his doctrines. Many people not knowing he did this believed him. He himself wanted to throw out the book of James because it did not fit in with what he believed. So he added a word in Romans 3 and wanted to burn the book of James. These things alone show a big hole in “faith alone”.
The other thought is that Christians believed in faith and works since apostolic times until the Protestant revolution. Faith and works was taught to Christians from the apostles.
Then as the book of James also says our faith is completed in works. Faith is not stagnant. As Jesus taught, faith grows. As we do works our faith in Christ grows. We become closer to Christ and become holier or more like Christ.
The other thought is that Christians believed in faith and works since apostolic times until the Protestant revolution. Faith and works was taught to Christians from the apostles.
Then as the book of James also says our faith is completed in works. Faith is not stagnant. As Jesus taught, faith grows. As we do works our faith in Christ grows. We become closer to Christ and become holier or more like Christ.
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Wannano
Guest
Beautifully done, if we take out all the arrogance, bitterness, strife, judgementalism, hatred and suspicion we are left with love. Why is it so hard?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Hey, I feel very loving towards most of my Protestant brothers and sisters, but if they aren’t going to get on board with our teachings about the Real Presence, Mary and the Pope, it’s going to just continue as brotherly ecumenical love.
I loved my husband but I never once took him to Mass that I didn’t give him a look for refusing to genuflect, or even bow like a Presbyterian. He wouldn’t even do it just to humor me. I guess now he gets to discuss that with the Big Boss. I did get him to sit in the Adoration Chapel with me for an hour after his dad died.
I loved my husband but I never once took him to Mass that I didn’t give him a look for refusing to genuflect, or even bow like a Presbyterian. He wouldn’t even do it just to humor me. I guess now he gets to discuss that with the Big Boss. I did get him to sit in the Adoration Chapel with me for an hour after his dad died.
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Wannano
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I can settle for brotherly ecumenical love…that is more than some are willing to give…on both sides.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I like alot of what you said, some very good points.
I would add that with the Bible we need the Sacred Tradition of the Church, so we are not interpreting Scripture on our own, which leads to error. The Bible and Sacred Tradition are part of the deposit of faith revealed to us by Christ. Otherwise the only known Saints are those the Church has declared as Saints. We do not know for sure who is in heaven. Many souls are still suffering in purgatory and need our intercession.
The Eucharist is Jesus’ body, blood, soul and divinity at every Sacrifice of the Mass in the Catholic church. The Sacrifice of the Mass in the Catholic Church is needed for our salvation.
Catholics follow a liturgical year based upon the date of the crucifixion and the date of Jesus’ birth and then I agree the readings at the Mass are based on the saints days and religious holidays.
God bless.
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lanman87
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After reading some of the Reformers and later reformed theologians/preachers (Edwards, Spurgeon, Bunyan) I’ve come to the conclusion that your remarks are 100% correct. From the Protestant and even most of American Evangelical communities for a faith to be a saving faith it has to be a “living faith”. Faith is not something you do one time like say the “sinner’s prayer”. It is a changed heart that manifest itself in changed affections and attitudes and actions. When an Evangelical says “We are save by faith alone” what he means is “We are saved by a living faith alone that is so pervasive in my life that it has completed changed how I think, feel, and act towards God, toward my family, toward friends and toward strangers”
Of course, I’ve long since discovered that the “Faith alone” argument isn’t really about faith and works. Most people who regularly attend Evangelical/Protestant and Catholic churches do works of love in some form or fashion. I think the real argument is about the Sacraments. When Protestants say we are saved by faith alone what we normally mean is we are saved by a “living faith” and we grow and nurture or “living faith” by prayer, attending worship services, Bible Studies, Sunday School, and volunteering for ministries and so forth (without Sacraments). And I believe when Catholics say we are saved by “Faith + Works” what they mean is “We are saved by faith and the sacraments and participating in the activities of the Catholic church”. In other words, “works” from the Catholic viewpoint means being a good Catholic by regularly going to confession, going to Mass, following the liturgical calendar, and so forth.
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ltwin
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I agree with much of this (though I would point out that sacraments/ordinances can also nurture our faith along with the other things you mentioned).
I think a big difference between Catholics and Protestants is that it seems to me that Catholics see the sacraments as things necessary for salvation that the Church has a monopoly on and provides to the faithful so that separation from the visible Church endangers salvation.
Whereas Protestants recognize that separation from the outward communion of the Church is not the same thing as separation from God.
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