Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[MagdalenaRita]

In other words, “works” from the Catholic viewpoint means being a good Catholic by regularly going to confession, going to Mass, following the liturgical calendar, and so forth.

It is true in the Catholic church that these things are considered part of our works and the sacraments are the most important thing to obtain salvation but what is also very important are the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

corporal works of mercy:

• To feed the hungry
• To give drink to the thirsty
• To clothe the naked
• To harbour the harbourless
• To visit the sick
• To ransom the captive
• To bury the dead.

spiritual works of mercy are:

• To instruct the ignorant
• To counsel the doubtful
• To admonish sinners
• To bear wrongs patiently
• To forgive offences willingly
• To comfort the afflicted
• To pray for the living and the dead

Works of mercy are based upon the principle that we are to do to others as we would have them do to us.

Th Church also tells us through divine revelation from God that we are not guaranteed salvation so these works are considered very important.

Evangelicals do not see works as very important. I used to be an evangelical and in all the years there I remember explicitly being told in sermons I do not have to do any thing and once even being told in a sermon I could put my Christianity on a shelf in the closet and pull it out whenever I wanted. This is not biblical at all. Jesus was very explicit in the gospels about the need for our works and obedience to Him.

 

[lanman87]

I agree with much of this (though I would point out that sacraments/ordinances can also nurture our faith along with the other things you mentioned).

I agree that the sacraments/ordinances can and do nurture our faith. But from the Catholic perspective our Sacraments/Ordinances aren’t really Sacraments because they aren’t given by an ordained Catholic clergy.

 

[JonNC]

Of course, I’ve long since discovered that the “Faith alone” argument isn’t really about faith and works. Most people who regularly attend Evangelical/Protestant and Catholic churches do works of love in some form or fashion. I think the real argument is about the Sacraments. When Protestants say we are saved by faith alone what we normally mean is we are saved by a “living faith” and we grow and nurture or “living faith” by prayer, attending worship services, Bible Studies, Sunday School, and volunteering for ministries and so forth (without Sacraments).

So, where does someone like me fit in? I see the sacraments as equally important to growth in grace and faith as hearing the word. Word and sacraments are the means of grace, in fact. Receiving the sacraments is no more a work than hearing the word. The Spirit urges and guides us to do both.

 

[JonNC]

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I agree with much of this (though I would point out that sacraments/ordinances can also nurture our faith along with the other things you mentioned).

I think a big difference between Catholics and Protestants is that it seems to me that Catholics see the sacraments as things necessary for salvation that the Church has a monopoly on and provides to the faithful so that separation from the visible Church endangers salvation.

Whereas Protestants recognize that separation from the outward communion of the Church is not the same thing as separation from God.

I would phrase it differently. Christ placed the Church in charge of the spiritual growth of the faithful. This charge is both preaching the word and administration of the sacraments.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would phrase it differently. Christ placed the Church in charge of the spiritual growth of the faithful. This charge is both preaching the word and administration of the sacraments.

For Catholics, Scripture is how we learn about, understand and appreciate the Sacraments, which are visible signs of God’s conferral of grace upon us. The priest cannot just go around administering sacraments willy nilly without people first understanding and appreciating what the sacrament is, so “the Word” is included in the administration of the sacraments. It is not something separate and apart.

In the Catholic Church only priests are permitted to perform sacramental functions such as consecrating the Host, absolving sins, anointing the sick, marriage etc., whereas “preaching the word”, in other words teaching people from Scripture, in and of itself is not a sacrament, does not require an exercise of the powers given by God to his priests only, and can be done by a number of people besides a priest. A priest could preach the word, but so could a deacon, or a lay catechist. However, the deacon and lay catechist do not have the powers to confer sacraments (apart from Baptism in an extreme life-threatening emergency).

 

[lanman87]

So, where does someone like me fit in? I see the sacraments as equally important to growth in grace and faith as hearing the word. Word and sacraments are the means of grace, in fact. Receiving the sacraments is no more a work than hearing the word. The Spirit urges and guides us to do both.

From what I’ve read on this board and other places. While Lutherans and Episcopal/Church of England retain many of the Liturgical elements of the Catholic church the Sacraments given still aren’t valid because of a lack of “valid orders” and lack of being under the authority of the Catholic Church and the Bishop of Rome. In other words, Sacraments given by anything other than the Catholic Church under the authority of the Pope are just pale imitations of Sacraments and not really a means of grace. So even if you have the same theology about the sacraments you are out of luck because you don’t have the authority to give and receive the sacraments. This is my understanding and If I’m wrong then some good Catholic can correct me.

 

[lanman87]

Evangelicals do not see works as very important.

That is news to me. Our local Evangelical churches all work together to provide food and financial assistance to the poor including paying utility bills. To provide GED classes and counseling on how to get into college and finish college if you have dropped out of high school. English as a second language classes to the Hispanic immigrants in our community (we don’t ask if they are legal). We also support a crisis pregnancy center, adoption services, partner with mission groups who build wells to provide clean water in remote villages in India, have a local prison ministry, and many families in my local church sponsor children though Compassion International.

I don’t know what kind of church you attended but in my community Evangelicals are leading the charge against hunger, poverty and homelessness.

 

[JonNC]

From what I’ve read on this board and other places. While Lutherans and Episcopal/Church of England retain many of the Liturgical elements of the Catholic church the Sacraments given still aren’t valid because of a lack of “valid orders” and lack of being under the authority of the Catholic Church and the Bishop of Rome. In other words, Sacraments given by anything other than the Catholic Church under the authority of the Pope are just pale imitations of Sacraments and not really a means of grace. So even if you have the same theology about the sacraments you are out of luck because you don’t have the authority to give and receive the sacraments. This is my understanding and If I’m wrong then some good Catholic can correct me.

Not from a Lutheran or Anglican point of view. For both there is no doubt about about the validity of orders, and therefore no doubt about the validity of sacraments.
Additionally, sacraments, from this point of view, are means of grace, established and instituted by Christ with the promise forgiveness of sin - baptism, confession, Eucharist, etc.

But that wasn’t my question. My question is where do folks like me fit in to this Catholic/Protestant dichotomy?

 

[Jimbo]

“belief that God was in Christ seeking to save; trust that God will keep his promises; and commitment to his will and way.”

First, I think that Catholics and Protestants are closer than most people think, but that there are some key differences.

I’ll take your definition as a decent start. I can agree that God keep his promises and his commitments. I don’t think God was ‘in Christ’ but rather Christ is God, the Word made flesh, the 2nd person of the trinity. But I’m guessing you weren’t going for a more Arian view.

Where the differences come in is that your definition of faith doesn’t guarantee salvation. A person can believe everything in your definition, subscribe to it, and commit there heart to it… and still lose salvation later on if they falter. St. Paul was pretty clear about this.

We can’t be taken from salvation. But we can choose to cease accepting it. We have to finish the race, so to speak.

 

[ltwin]

I don’t think God was ‘in Christ’ but rather Christ is God, the Word made flesh, the 2nd person of the trinity. But I’m guessing you weren’t going for a more Arian view.

No, I was going for a Pauline view, namely, 2 Corinthians 5:19: "For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. "

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Not from a Lutheran or Anglican point of view. For both there is no doubt about about the validity of orders, and therefore no doubt about the validity of sacraments.

This is the Lutheran or Anglican POV. The Catholic Church disagrees with you and says your priests/ pastors don’t have the authority.

 

[Jimbo]

Fair enough. I’ve been reading alot of the Arian controversy recently so I’m probably over sensitive.


ltwin

    December 17

Jimbo:
I don’t think God was ‘in Christ’ but rather Christ is God, the Word made flesh, the 2nd person of the trinity. But I’m guessing you weren’t going for a more Arian view.

No, I was going for a Pauline view, namely, 2 Corinthians 5:19: "For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. "

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I don’t know what kind of church you attended but in my community Evangelicals are leading the charge against hunger, poverty and homelessness.

But, from my experience and a few others in this thread, this charity is of no relation to salvation. In fact, preachers go to great lengths to reinforce that faith is all that is required for salvation. All the good works we did came from a desire to live like Christ which was taught as something distinct from salvation.

 

[lanman87]

Not from a Lutheran or Anglican point of view.

That is the point of disagreement.

 

[lanman87]

But, from my experience and a few others in this thread, this charity is of no relation to salvation.

This Charity is the result of faith. Separating works of charity from a living faith is like trying to separate wetness from water.

 

[ltwin]

We can’t be taken from salvation. But we can choose to cease accepting it. We have to finish the race, so to speak.

I agree with this.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

But, from my experience and a few others in this thread, this charity is of no relation to salvation.

This Charity is the result of faith. Separating works of charity from a living faith is like trying to separate wetness from water.

Like I said up thread, the way faith was taught to me was entirely unsatisfactory. This is a large part of the reason I went in search of truth and landed in the Catholic Church.

I was Baptist. There was no great amount of theology involved here. Many preachers had no theological training at all.

We were taught once saved always saved with works as being a good thing to do, but not at all essential to faith. The only thing that was essential was that you believed.

 

[ltwin]

But, from my experience and a few others in this thread, this charity is of no relation to salvation. In fact, preachers go to great lengths to reinforce that faith is all that is required for salvation. All the good works we did came from a desire to live like Christ which was taught as something distinct from salvation.

I can see some churches teaching this. The educated Protestant position on this is that justification is by faith only; good works are part of sanctification. Protestants distinguish justification from sanctification, but sanctification still originates out of justification.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

But, from my experience and a few others in this thread, this charity is of no relation to salvation. In fact, preachers go to great lengths to reinforce that faith is all that is required for salvation. All the good works we did came from a desire to live like Christ which was taught as something distinct from salvation.

I can see some churches teaching this. The educated Protestant position on this is that justification is by faith only; good works are part of sanctification. Protestants distinguish justification from sanctification, but sanctification still originates out of justification.

I can see that.

We have somehow made it back to your original OP. Catholics don’t believe that faith=belief, but a significant number of Protestants from denominations that don’t promote theological training do.

A lot of these Protestants, like myself, end up coming home to the Catholic Church because we feel that what we were taught about faith was illogical and not biblical. Catholics end up repeating what they hear us complain about.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Not from a Lutheran or Anglican point of view. For both there is no doubt about about the validity of orders, and therefore no doubt about the validity of sacraments.

This is the Lutheran or Anglican POV. The Catholic Church disagrees with you and says your priests/ pastors don’t have the authority.

Yes. I know.