Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Not from a Lutheran or Anglican point of view.

That is the point of disagreement.

Well, when it comes to sacraments, it seems to be more of a point of disagreement with others who are also loosely categorized as Protestant.
And that’s the point of my question.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

One more thing to remember, not all Protestants hold to Sola Fide.

That is true. I worked many years with a group of ana-Baptists and they did not believe in faith alone, nor did the believe in once saved, always saved.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes, that is because we don’t believe you can earn salvation by works. If our works contribute to our salvation then salvation is earned and no longer a free gift. Instead we believe works are a result of and give evidence of a “living faith”. We are saved by this “living faith” with the purpose of works is to give Glory to God and expand His Kingdom. They also help us grow closer to Christ and strengthen our “living faith”. As our faith gets stronger we do more works and as we do more works our faith gets stronger.

Catholics do not believe we can earn our salvation either. Trying to earn your salvation would be works alone. God has taught us through His Divine Revelation that faith and works go together. You can not have works without faith and you can not have faith without works. The book of James, which Martin Luther wanted burned, is pretty clear about works having a part in our salvation, as do many other passages.

There is only one place in Scripture that says “faith alone”. It is James 2:24 and it says we are not justified by faith alone.

This is the passage that hit me like a brick on the head during my evangelical protestant years:

James 2:20 - “Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Right after reading this, not yet in the Catholic church, I was wanting to put my son in a protestant school and I was required to sign a paper stating that I believed in faith alone. I walked away. How could I say I believed in faith alone after reading that passage? I couldn’t.

 

[ltwin]

Faith is not belief. They are different.

Agreed.

Faith is a gift of God given to every man, increased through the Sacraments and a life of virtue.

I can agree with this as well.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Well, now I’m confused as that is the Protestant belief about faith and works. Faith (a living faith) is what saves us and works (acts of love and kindness to others) are evidence of faith.

The difference is, is that protestants believe that works are a sign of having faith but are not necessary. Catholics believe that faith and works together are necessary.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Salvation is a free gift given to anyone who becomes a child of God but we must stay that way by obedience.

 

[ltwin]

All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it’s about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

I agree with this in the sense that faith is not mere intellectual belief but is accompanied by obedience. The Westminster Confession Chapter 14 “Of Saving Faith” states:

II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God himself speaking therein; and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.

I would clarify that what we do in faith is not meritorious. As the Westminster Confession also states:

the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreproveable in God’s sight; but that He, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.

By faith, our good works are acceptable to God because they are in reality the works of Christ. They are his righteousness. Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

To sum up: Christ is the ground of our salvation, faith is the instrument of our salvation, and works are the fruit of our salvation.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

To sum up: Christ is the ground of our salvation, faith is the instrument of our salvation, and works are the fruit of our salvation

That is still salvation by “faith alone” which is not Biblical.

I am Catholic and do not follow the Westminster catechism. I did not as a protestant either as many protestants do not.

 

[neophyte]

I would clarify that what we do in faith is not meritorious.

I understand that that’s what you believe and what the Westminster Confession says, but I don’t recognize the WC as being congruent with Sacred Scripture.

To sum up: Christ is the ground of our salvation, faith is the instrument of our salvation, and works are the fruit of our salvation

Faith is a work, it’s something that you do.

 

[ltwin]

Faith is a work, it’s something that you do .

Faith is a grace. It is a gift from God that we did not and could not earn or achieve. We receive it, and we rest in it. Faith is passive–those who live by faith yield themselves to Christ so that he might live and reign and work in them and through them.

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” Faith is not a work.

Romans 4:2-5
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

 

[RoseScented]

I’ll be the first to admit I’m not all that smart when it comes to getting into the details about what entails definitions of faith on all sides of the debate. However, there was one thing that I’ve always been taught about what I would guess some Protestants consider me as a Catholic “earning salvation” by works. So what I was taught goes like this:

Everything that we do that is good in life, situations we encounter and things that we do, are an act of our self because we are an individual moral agent given free will but they are also, because of the nature of the act being good and God being all goodness, acts that the Lord has given us to participate in a tangible way in His goodness here on Earth. So, when we encounter a scenario when we have the opportunity and ability to do a work we are given two choices: 1) Participate with God working on Earth or 2) Deny the Lord attempting to work in a tangible/visible way to yourself/others and thus deny the Lord’s Will.

So when Catholics say that our works are part of salvation, it’s because the things that we do that are good all come from the Will and Workings of the Lord for the betterment/salvation of the individual or the community. To say that when we don’t do those works makes it so we possibly won’t get to Heaven (not really a phrase I’ve been taught, but it was mentioned somewhere above and I can understand the sentiment) it’s because in us not doing those works we are denying Christ and His work here on Earth and as we believe, denying Christ means you are turning away from all that He is offering to you freely even to the point of possibly denying your own salvation.

Works for Catholics aren’t just feeding the hungry and clothing the poor; though those things are definitely needed by a caring and supportive society. Even things such as going to mass, reading Scripture, praying (rosaries, novenas, adoration chapels, etc.), and indulgences - since it requires the individual to focus on living according to Christ and to set actions in their lives focused on the Lord (vising churches, praying at a set time a day so that your day is revolving around the Lord instead of the Lord being put in your day whenever you remember Him, etc.) - are works that instead of being focused outward, are focusing inward at bettering the individual and drawing them closer to Christ and living according to His will.

I don’t know where that example falls in the debate, but I felt like I should offer it forward because I rarely see people mention it and maybe I was taught something weird. It seems reasonable to me, so… shrug. I hope I conveyed that even half as coherently as it was taught to me.

 

[neophyte]

Faith is passive.

You are mistaken, as I explained in my first post. Faith is active, it’s something you do.

Faith is a grace. It is a gift from God that we did not and could not earn or achieve.

As I said in my first post. Perhaps you didn’t reflect on it adequately.

 

[CzechMan]

It sure is unfair that even though Luther’s translation has 74 books, none of the online versions of the Bible show the additional books.

 

[TULIPed]

Faith is a work, it’s something that you do .

“For He chose us in Him before the creation…”

In the immortal words of every parent everywhere, “who did what to whom?”

 

[Shasta-Rose]

Right. Well, Paul never said to not do good works. He just says that we are not saved by them.

Eph. 2:8-10

I think it goes without saying (that seems to be Paul’s thought) that as Christians, we will want to do good works. Not everybody is going to be in a position to do great works, but doing accessible favors for people now and then would count, right?

 

[TULIPed]

This is a very kind thing to say fhansen. Thank you.

Merry Christmas!

 

[TULIPed]

This is the passage that hit me like a brick on the head during my evangelical protestant years:

James 2:20

And today, as a Catholic, how do you hold this verse in tension with Romans 4? (I ask this without malice - I think Catholics and Protestants who love Christ in the hearts and confess him with their mouths aren’t so very far apart at all about faith)

 

[lanman87]

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone . ”

The greek word for Justified means either “made just” or “shown to be just”, depending upon the context. The entire James 2 passage was about the difference between a genuine living faith that saves and a intellectual or emotion based faith that does not save.

The NLT translation really does a good job of showing the context and meaning of this hotly debated passage.

23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

In other words, claiming to have faith (faith alone) without works (what we do) does not show (give evidence) that our faith is a faith that saves (a living faith).

Compare that to Ephesians 2:8-10 in the NLT

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Also consider Romans 4:3-5 (NLT)

3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

How can I read those things and believe that works cause me to be saved? Works can give evidence of my status as a born again, Spirit Filled, adopted, changed, child of God. But they do not cause me to be a born again, Spirit filled, adopted, changed, child of God. Nor do they keep me a born again, Spirit filled, adopted, changed, child of God. If my works cause me to be counted as righteous (now or in the future) then I am earning my salvation.

 

[guanophore]

I think it goes without saying (that seems to be Paul’s thought) that as Christians, we will want to do good works. Not everybody is going to be in a position to do great works, but doing accessible favors for people now and then would count, right?

The problem comes in the times when we dont want to do the good works. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit will instill in us the desire,but being human, there are times when the LAST thing we want is to do good. We don’t want to forgive the one who has hurt us, want to hold the resentment toward those with which we are angry, feeling vengeful. These states of mind do not mean we are not “saved” but that we have not yet been made completely sanctified by grace. At such times, we must force ourselves to do what is right. This is heroic - acting in contradiction to our base human nature.

Yes, each choice of each day can enable us to grow in love. Holiness can be gained in the small everyday things.

 

[JonNC]

It sure is unfair that even though Luther’s translation has 74 books, none of the online versions of the Bible show the additional books.

Well, at least not in English.

 

[guanophore]

o love Christ in the hearts and confess him with their mouths

For us to love Christ and confess Him is an entire lifestyle. It does not mean that we make an impassioned prayer once in time, for all time, but that we live out a committed life of discipleship. We also believe we have the choice/freedom to walk away from Christ at any time.

How can I read those things and believe that works cause me to be saved?

I don’t see how anyone could. You don’t think Catholics believe this, do you?

But they do not cause me to be a born again, Spirit filled, adopted, changed, child of God.

There is one “work” that does cause this, but it is one that comes from God, and is then given back to God.

You also make an essential point here, that when we are justified, we are “changed”. We are not just “accounted righteous”, as though God doctored the books. We are infused with grace, and essentially changed in our hearts.

. Nor do they keep me a born again, Spirit filled, adopted, changed, child of God.

I agree that one cannot have these events “undone”, but doing the works that God created beforehand, that we should walk in them, does keep us in a state of grace, so that we can live out the reality of these conditions. We can lose our state of being spirit filled, and fail to live out our changed inner state, and act like we are no longer a child of God.

If my works cause me to be counted as righteous (now or in the future) then I am earning my salvation.

Not in this case, as ergos hagios do not originate in human nature, but in grace. It is as though we are the glove, moved by God’s hand in our hearts. This is what is meant by working our our salvation with fear and trembling. We cooperate with His grace, but we are not the Source of it.