Defy any Precept and then die: you will suffer Hell? Why?

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IwishIknew

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Why would the Church setup the Precepts w/ defiance assuming the grave risk of death and an eternity of Hell?

I understand the Church can do this: “what will be bound by you…”
I understand why the Church does this: “to ensure the minimum…”
I don’t understand the severe penalty placed on anything but 100% adherence (esp. to 55 Sunday masses/year, meat on Fridays and few exceptions) to the 5 precepts.

There are so many other motivating alternatives to the eternal fires of Hell motifvation techniques, appealing to the spirit of membership, strongly worded guidance, some typical corporal punishment, some extreme corporal punishment, torture (awful thought) - but eternal fire???.

Seems so many people are already struggling with truly evil forces in the world today (confusion of faith, sensuality, abortion, horrific family problems, environmental problems, wars great and small, etc. etc.) - why would our Church layer on such a severe punishment to these transgressions?

Thoughts?
 
It does this to make sure we understand the true gravity of our choices.

Take for example, the requirement of 55 masses a year. This stems from what we believe actually happens at the mass. Jesus Christ himself is present in the body/blood.soul and divinity. When we skip mass we are exchanging the reality of Jesus Christ with something else. On first glance, skipping mass might not seem so bad. But without these stiff requirements and harsh language, many people would not understand the true gravity of their decisions.
 
IwishIknew said:
Why would the Church setup the Precepts w/ defiance assuming the grave risk of death and an eternity of Hell?

I understand the Church can do this: “what will be bound by you…”
I understand why the Church does this: “to ensure the minimum…”
I don’t understand the severe penalty placed on anything but 100% adherence (esp. to 55 Sunday masses/year, meat on Fridays and few exceptions) to the 5 precepts.

There are so many other motivating alternatives to the eternal fires of Hell motifvation techniques, appealing to the spirit of membership, strongly worded guidance, some typical corporal punishment, some extreme corporal punishment, torture (awful thought) - but eternal fire???.

Seems so many people are already struggling with truly evil forces in the world today (confusion of faith, sensuality, abortion, horrific family problems, environmental problems, wars great and small, etc. etc.) - why would our Church layer on such a severe punishment to these transgressions?

Thoughts?
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We are fundamentally flawed beings. We have the free will to accept whatever we want. But as being sinners we need some guidelines. The guidelines shouldn’t be suggestions. Keep in mind “the fullness of Truth” ensconced within the Church these suggestions come from God. It is the way to Heaven. (the only way? not necessarily) But if you follow the rules, precepts, guidance. You get to Heaven. That is a pretty good deal regardless of how we struggle.

Plus keep in mind the Church in and of itself isn’t layering on anything it is the choice of the one who does not live faithfully that puts the soul in jeopardy. The person sent to hell isn’t sent at all, they choose it.
 
How could we attend 55 sunday masses per year? There’s only 52 weeks in a year:eek: Please source this or an alternate definition of a year, if possible, as I am now thoroughly confused.:confused:
 
I really don’t understand why not fasting or eating meat on Lenten Fridays is a MORTAL sin. Can someone explain the logic of this to me? It greatly saddens me though, when I consider the cases of fallen away Catholics who keep their distance from the Church precisely because of certain rules which I suppose they would see as legalisms. I’m sure people understand that Catholics don’t eat meat on Fridays during Lent, and they may see it just as a tradition, but I doubt most people would know that if Catholics don’t this is an objective grave sin that merits eternal death if it meets the requirements for a mortal sin. I think if most people knew this aspect, they would be horrified.

I just don’t understand why the Church attaches the GRAVE aspect to not fasting or to eating meat at the prescribed times, for it to be a venial sin is not jarring, but for it to be grave… it is confusing to me as to how this was decided upon.

Why would the Church attach such a penalty to this?
Aeden said:
How could we attend 55 sunday masses per year? There’s only 52 weeks in a year:eek: Please source this or an alternate definition of a year, if possible, as I am now thoroughly confused.:confused:
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I take it they were including holy days of obligation?
 
Aeden said:
How could we attend 55 sunday masses per year? There’s only 52 weeks in a year:eek: Please source this or an alternate definition of a year, if possible, as I am now thoroughly confused.:confused:
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I think that includes Holy Days of Obligation also.
 
Gavroche said:
I really don’t understand why not fasting or eating meat on Lenten Fridays is a MORTAL sin. Can someone explain the logic of this to me? It greatly saddens me though, when I consider the cases of fallen away Catholics who keep their distance from the Church precisely because of certain rules which I suppose they would see as legalisms. I’m sure people understand that Catholics don’t eat meat on Fridays during Lent, and see it just as a tradition, but I doubt most people would know that if Catholics don’t this is an objective grave sin that merits eternal torment if it meets the requirements for a mortal sin. I think if most people knew this aspect, they would be horrified.

I just don’t understand why the Church attaches the GRAVE aspect to not fasting or to eating meat at the prescribed times, for it to be a venial sin is not jarring, but for it to be grave… it is confusing to me as to how this was decided upon.

Why would the Church attach such a penalty to this?

I take it they were including holy days of obligation?
Click to expand...
It is a sacrifice.

I don’t know exactly why it is identified as Mortal, but I could care less. I want to go above and beyond. I want to suffer for Our Lord. We owe him everything. I am sure the Church has her reasons. Just give it up to God and enjoy letting your soul put your body in its dusty and ashy little place.
 
Aeden said:
How could we attend 55 sunday masses per year? There’s only 52 weeks in a year:eek: Please source this or an alternate definition of a year, if possible, as I am now thoroughly confused.:confused:
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Sundays and holy days.
 
SonSearcher said:
It is a sacrifice.

I don’t know exactly why it is identified as Mortal, but I could care less. I want to go above and beyond. I want to suffer for Our Lord. We owe him everything. I am sure the Church has her reasons. Just give it up to God and enjoy letting your soul put your body in its dusty and ashy little place.
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How could you care less?I am not concerned for myself, I have no issue following these precepts, I’m concerned for others to whom these precepts can be obstacles to conversion.

Put yourself in the shoes of a non-Catholic, someone trying to seek the truth, and they investigate Catholicism and find out through their study that eating meat on a lenten Friday is grounds for the loss of sanctifying grace when it fits the conditions of a mortal sin.
Can you not see how knowledge of such penalties would be an impediment to someone considering Catholicism? I certainly can see how it would be, and that is where much of my concern lies.
 
You have to remember the conditions for mortal sin: 1) It has to be a grave offense. 2) You have to know it’s a grave offense. 3) You have to deliberately choose to do it anyway.

Even the title of your post gives the very reson. It’s the word “defy”. This speaks to the attitude of our heart. You are deliberately defying something you know you should do.

With the Lenten Fast, speaking as a convert, once I knew why we do it during Lent, keeping it was an honor. Did I always remember that it was a Friday during Lent the first few years I was a Catholic? No. Did I “deliberately defy”? Also, no. My solution was simple. I don’t eat any meat on any Friday and now I don’t have to remember if it is Lent or not.😉

When we defy God, who calls us to fast, pray and give alms, that’s what sends us to Hell. We aren’t called to fast every day. Just to offer up eating meat on Fridays during Lent as part of our fast. Besides, Friday is the day Jesus died for our sins. The Greek word for “fish” is spelled IXOYE, which corresponds to the first letter of each word in the phrase, Jesus Christ God’s Son Savior. It was a symbol of identification for the early Christians who could be killed if anyone found out they were Christian. So our eating fish on Fridays not only recalls the sacrifice of Christ on Good Friday, it also reminds us of those earlys Saints and Martyrs who gave all for the Faith. They gave all. We should joyfully give up cheeseburgers on Fridays during Lent. Or steaks. Or pepperoni pizzas. And did you ever notice how you crave those things most on Fridays during Lent?!😃
Clearly the Enemy knows why it’s important, or he wouldn’t tempt us so hard with all we can’t eat during Lent. And since he hates it so much…well…for me that’s just added incentive to make sure I keep the Lenten fast.😃
Kris
 
How could you care less?I am not concerned for myself, I have no issue following these precepts, I’m concerned for others to whom these precepts can be obstacles to conversion.
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I get this last concern. Why would anyone who is looking into Catholicism want to join if missing mass one Sunday or eating meat on a Friday is grounds for hell?

The reason is this: Christianity is not easy. It is not a game. Yes, Christ does all of the work of saving souls. But the Church wants men and women who are willing to lay down their lives for Christ and his Church. If the person looking into the faith doesn’t want to obey the Church on the small things, why would we trust that they would obey on the big things? The Catholic Church wants everyone to become Catholic, but only when they are ready.
 
Gavroche said:
How could you care less?I am not concerned for myself, I have no issue following these precepts, I’m concerned for others to whom these precepts can be obstacles to conversion.

Put yourself in the shoes of a non-Catholic, someone trying to seek the truth, and they investigate Catholicism and find out through their study that eating meat on a lenten Friday is grounds for the loss of sanctifying grace when it fits the conditions of a mortal sin.
Can you not see how knowledge of such penalties would be an impediment to someone considering Catholicism? I certainly can see how it would be, and that is where much of my concern lies.
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I could care less for myself as you have also stated. I can put myself in the shoes of a Non-Catholic because I was one. Two to three years ago. At age 30 I reverted after almost 20 years of being “fallen” away.

Staying out of the Church was prideful. I could have argued and did argue every single precept, little tradition, why the Pope?, satan doesn’t exist…etc etc etc.

But ultimately it was my pride, not what the Church is or purports. I feel that there is a certain immaturity to the argument coming from a person who finds an impediment in a penalty, no matter how silly, because the final destination is Heaven, the ultimate reward.

If not being able to eat meat for a handful of fridays a year can keep someone out of the Church, it is not the Church’s fault. It should be considered silliness.
 
IwishIknew said:
Why would the Church setup the Precepts w/ defiance assuming the grave risk of death and an eternity of Hell?

I understand the Church can do this: “what will be bound by you…”
I understand why the Church does this: “to ensure the minimum…”
I don’t understand the severe penalty placed on anything but 100% adherence (esp. to 55 Sunday masses/year, meat on Fridays and few exceptions) to the 5 precepts.

There are so many other motivating alternatives to the eternal fires of Hell motifvation techniques, appealing to the spirit of membership, strongly worded guidance, some typical corporal punishment, some extreme corporal punishment, torture (awful thought) - but eternal fire???.

Seems so many people are already struggling with truly evil forces in the world today (confusion of faith, sensuality, abortion, horrific family problems, environmental problems, wars great and small, etc. etc.) - why would our Church layer on such a severe punishment to these transgressions?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
  1. Failing in such things is grave matter because they are important. The fact that many people see them as silly or not important is a sign of the confusion of our times, not any indication that they are silly.
  2. In order for such a failure to be a mortal sin, it has to be done knowing that it is serious and with full consent of will, so most of the examples people bring up where this would seem severe are false examples, and all the rest show a failure to see the seriousness of the issues.
  3. Other motivations are in fact in place, but strength of faith varies so there are times when many people will ignore the less severe motivations.
 
Why does the Church choose this most unthinkably severe stick to motivate compliance? Why not use other motives shying away from the most painful one of all?
 
IwishIknew said:
Why does the Church choose this most unthinkably severe stick to motivate compliance? Why not use other motives shying away from the most painful one of all?
Click to expand...
How is it unthinkable? We are taking about Heaven or Hell. The reward comes from discipline and obedience.
 
Gavroche said:
I really don’t understand why not fasting or eating meat on Lenten Fridays is a MORTAL sin.
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One word: tradition. Various churches have understood and developed differently the Jewish discipline regarding the rules of fasting. Believe it or not, the Orthodox that I know see us Catholics as not pure enough, since they have way tougher requirements and longer intervals of fasting. For ex. the Orthodox Church requires abstaining from eating meat, fish, milk, dairy products, eggs and olive oil (and abstaining from marital relations, too) every Wednesday and Friday.
I don’t remember anyone saying that eating meat or cheese on a given Wednesday can automatically send a soul to hell, though, as fasting has value only in correlation with other things that refine the soul (serenity of a mind that liberates itself of the tyranny of passions, prayer, almsgiving and humility - boasting about one’s fasting is seen as a greater sin than not fasting at all).
 
Just be glad you aren’t bound by the six-hundred-something Laws of Moses! :eek:
 
IwishIknew said:
Why would the Church setup the Precepts w/ defiance assuming the grave risk of death and an eternity of Hell?

I understand the Church can do this: “what will be bound by you…”
I understand why the Church does this: “to ensure the minimum…”
I don’t understand the severe penalty placed on anything but 100% adherence (esp. to 55 Sunday masses/year, meat on Fridays and few exceptions) to the 5 precepts.

There are so many other motivating alternatives to the eternal fires of Hell motifvation techniques, appealing to the spirit of membership, strongly worded guidance, some typical corporal punishment, some extreme corporal punishment, torture (awful thought) - but eternal fire???.

Seems so many people are already struggling with truly evil forces in the world today (confusion of faith, sensuality, abortion, horrific family problems, environmental problems, wars great and small, etc. etc.) - why would our Church layer on such a severe punishment to these transgressions?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I believe the issue you have starts with a flawed understanding of Church authority…you mention, “What you bind on earth…”, but you neglect the rest. "shall have been bound in heaven. So the Church does not bind things and THEN God binds them in heaven…Rather the Church binds that which God binds…
It is not the Church which lays on this burden…but the Lord Himself.

Now - this can be difficult to understand since we know that our Lord is a Loving and merciful God. Yet many, if not most, people come to Him first in fear.
“Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”…The fulfillment of that wisdom is complete and pure Love of the Lord.
But to move from fear to love requires effort and discipline and commitment and obedience and desire and submission of our wills to God’s Holy Will.
The precepts that you speak above are disciplines necessary to help us grow in holiness…in the Love of our Lord.

Consider the marriage contract and what happens if one fails to live up to that contract.
The promise and goal of the contract is mutual love, self giving, mutually supporting and unlimited love…Yet if one grievously rejects and fails to fulfill the contract, the contract could be broken and the guilty party lose everything.

Likewise with our salvation - our marriage contract with our Lord. We are committed to Loving God to the best of our ability. Deliberately rejecting our duties toward that Love - or permitting a haphazard and neglectful attitude toward our Love places us in a perilous position.
The Church - our marriage counselor - does not make this up, it only informs us of the needs and warns us of the price of neglecting our Love.\

So the question to ask is, Do I Love God - and if I do, are any of these things onerous compared to what the Lord offers me?

Peace
James
 
There is no government in the history of the planet that has come up with a corporal punishment to compare in severity for an act of defiance - no matter how unjust. Why would the Church choose such severity since it is within their power not to?
 
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