Defy any Precept and then die: you will suffer Hell? Why?

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Hypocrisy… you keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Closer to the actual definition is veiling an attack on the teaching of the Catholic Church as a “question”.
First: I desire not to break any forum rules of attacking the teaching of the catholic church.

Second: to do this , seems to betlittle the intent of this practice.

Third:To look at an individual who is a practicing catholic and not like what they are doing, and to say so, does not equal attacking the church itself.
 
Doxiemom…Kidding aside, you bring up a good illustrative point. It is one that Jesus addressed too. The idea of keeping the letter of the law but not keeping the heart of the law.

And you are right - it does happen…

I know that for myself, keeping the lenten abstinence is no problem - in fact I try to abstain all year. While I don’t eat “shrimp and lobster” very often (if at all) I do like most fish just fine so it isn’t a hardship…and yet it still does call to mind the why of the discipline - and I think that is part of the reason for it. It causes us to call to mind our Lord and His sacrifice for us.

And who knows - - - the person eating lobster may still have made that same recollection and given praise to God for His love and for His blessings.

Peace
James
Thank you

and you are right.

Fasting and prayer are bibical principals. I have a great deal of respect for those who fast. I am afraid my “queen” stomach usually wins.
 
First: I desire not to break any forum rules of attacking the teaching of the catholic church.

Second: to do this , seems to betlittle the intent of this practice.

Third:To look at an individual who is a practicing catholic and not like what they are doing, and to say so, does not equal attacking the church itself.
So what is your objection, then? That the Church mandates that her members fast from meat on Fridays during Lent?

Or that Catholics eat shrimp and lobster during Lent?
 
So what is your objection, then? That the Church mandates that her members fast from meat on Fridays during Lent?

Or that Catholics eat shrimp and lobster during Lent?
Many a church has its laws that it expects it’s members to live by.No congregation is ever going to be 100% loyal to those laws. That is human.

I have no problem with that. There is biblical principle for authority. Disbedience to those laws will be dealth with in differnt ways under different circumstances. It may even result in changes in the law. I am old enough to remember when eating meat on any Friday meant that should you die, you went straight to hell. Some laws do change. I would add that there are some laws of some churches which are in place for control and see certain activities as sin when there is no mention of such sins in Scripture, So see, I am not aiming at the RCC , but this is a catholic site, so I am dealing with a catholic law.

My objection is not aimed at the church, it is aimed at those who are quite puffed up in pride of how observant they are to the laws, yet manage to circumvent the deeper value of that law and why that law became what it is.
 
I am old enough to remember when eating meat on any Friday meant that should you die, you went straight to hell.
Well, you are making a little bit of an error here.

The Catholic Church has never proclaimed that anyone went straight to hell. Not even Judas.

But it is true that eating meat on Fridays, in disobedience to Holy Mother Church, was a mortal sin.
My objection is not aimed at the church, it is aimed at those who are quite puffed up in pride of how observant they are to the laws, yet manage to circumvent the deeper value of that law and why that law became what it is.
I wouldn’t be so hard on them, Doxie. Perhaps they have pleased God today in some other way. And who are we to criticize someone whom God is pleased with?
 
Well, you are making a little bit of an error here.

The Catholic Church has never proclaimed that anyone went straight to hell. Not even Judas.

But it is true that eating meat on Fridays, in disobedience to Holy Mother Church, was a mortal sin.

I wouldn’t be so hard on them, Doxie. Perhaps they have pleased God today in some other way. And who are we to criticize someone whom God is pleased with?
Truth be told, i am a softie. Mostly because there ain’t nothing they have done that i didn’t get to first.

We problably please Him and disappoint Him more than we know. I hope I give Him a giggle now and then too.

In Christ
Dox
 
Why would the Church setup the Precepts w/ defiance assuming the grave risk of death and an eternity of Hell?

I understand the Church can do this: “what will be bound by you…”
I understand why the Church does this: “to ensure the minimum…”
I don’t understand the severe penalty placed on anything but 100% adherence (esp. to 55 Sunday masses/year, meat on Fridays and few exceptions) to the 5 precepts.

There are so many other motivating alternatives to the eternal fires of Hell motifvation techniques, appealing to the spirit of membership, strongly worded guidance, some typical corporal punishment, some extreme corporal punishment, torture (awful thought) - but eternal fire???.

Seems so many people are already struggling with truly evil forces in the world today (confusion of faith, sensuality, abortion, horrific family problems, environmental problems, wars great and small, etc. etc.) - why would our Church layer on such a severe punishment to these transgressions?

Thoughts?
NOTE: The following explanation is based on the understanding I have right now, so if it misses the mark 😉 do tell.

Though the Church can make binding disciplinary decisions and such, she does not have the power to decide what is sin and what is not – in the sense of what is objectively Right and Wrong. Sin is “missing the mark” of God’s Law. The Church cannot one day say that rape is not grave matter, for example. The reason eating meat on a fasting day is grave matter is not the eating of meat* per se* but the disobedience that the act entails. It is the saying “NO!” to the Church. One who fully understands the significance of a Church Precept but deliberately goes against it indeed commits a mortal sin, and this makes sense. Think. If one comprehends a rule to come from the God-instituted Church, which has been granted authority to bind and loose (Mt 16:17-19; 18:18) for the spiritual growth of her children, and if that person selfishly decides to make his own rule and shove the Church aside, then he or she is essentially throwing God aside, too.

The question with which to speculate with is: How often does someone actually commit a mortal sin by eating meat on a fasting day? More specifically, how often does one commit a FORMAL mortal sin (as opposed to material sin)? The “formal” means that one not only commits the act but is guilty of the wrongness of the act due to engagement of the conscience (He knows it’s wrong). This question is important, because, in the abstract, saying “eating meat on a Friday of Lent is a mortal sin” does seem harsh. But I would grant there are other items of grave matter dileneated by the Church that are just as hard to understand as to how committing one act could “send someone to hell.” The question of the relationship between Precepts of the Church and mortal sin really does invite the larger understanding of mortal sin in general. At its core, mortal sin a rejection of God. So if any act a person commits ultimately rejects God, then it is a mortal sin. How many people are really fundamentally rejecting God when they eat meat on a fasting day? They could be doing so through ignorance, or out of necessity (e.g., starvation). In addition, if one knew the law of the Church but still chose to eat meat anyways, even then the act does not equate to a formal mortal sin. A Catholic teenager may feel social pressure from his friends if they are having pepperoni pizza, for example. The teen’s culpability would be lessened from complex social factors. In cases of sin, there are often emotional factors, issues with the passions, psychological factors, and problems of ignorance.

Eating meat on a fasting day, as with any act of grave matter, is not like turning on a light switch: In the latter case, you either have light or no light, but the external act of sin does not automatically lead to a formal mortal sin every time.

It is often said that, when you die, you see St. Peter at the gates of Heaven. St. Peter (along with his successors) may have been given the keys, but it is not he who judges souls. God does that, because every sin is ultimately between the individual and God. With the keys, though, the Pope and the bishops in union with him can make rules for the good of the entire Church. The Church leaders cannot make up what is sinful and what is not – only how the disciplines are expressed and therefore what circumstances call for obedience to the Church. The Church is God’s, and it is because of this that disobedience to the church is grave. Remember Christ in Matthew 18 – right before the binding/loosing statement: “if he will not even listen to the church, then count him all one with the heathen and the publican.” It is the Church that is Christ’s representative, as it is His Body, and He shepherds us through its shepherds.
 
Well, you are making a little bit of an error here.

The Catholic Church has never proclaimed that anyone went straight to hell. Not even Judas.

But it is true that eating meat on Fridays, in disobedience to Holy Mother Church, was a mortal sin.
And just to be clear here…It was not the eating of the meat that made it mortal…but the defiance which made it mortal.
Eating meat in and of itself is not objectively evil (grave matter)
Accidentally eating meat (lack of knowledge), or somehow being obliged to eat meat (free consent) was not defiant and therefore not mortal.
So - Mortal aspect stems from defiance…The willful and deliberate refusal to serve God - in obedience to His Church (a violation of the first commandment ant therefore grave matter).
wouldn’t be so hard on them, Doxie. Perhaps they have pleased God today in some other way. And who are we to criticize someone whom God is pleased with?
I don’t think Doxie is intending to be hard on anyone in particular or trying to make a blanket statement about any Catholic who goes to “Red Lobster” on a lenten Friday.
Rather - it seems to be an acknowledgement that some DO “skirt” the rules. Also I see in it a little reminder for all of us to be pure in our intent. Such reminders are always a good thing.

Peace
James
 
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