Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional [CWN]

[zz912]

All who are repentant at Mass will be forgiven and receive absolution.

Those who are not truly repentant ? Well, at that point, its between them and God.

Exactly how many of them would benefit then? Would there be any more than there are now? Because if they are too lazy to make it confession, are they truly repentant? The answer is no.

If priests sit in confessionals with no one coming, that is their own fault. It means they haven’t been preaching the fullness of the faith and warning their flock. They haven’t taught about the need for confession and how people aren’t supposed to receive until they’ve been to confession. Priests have no one to blame but themselves because they’ve been scared to proclaim the truths of the faith.

And in the last 60 years, the Church has made it easier and easier. Lowering requirements for every sacrament and standard. And what has been the response? People fail to do even the bare minimums.

Maybe the Church should learn some basic psychology that any good leader knows. You set HIGH expectations, and people will reach for them. Maybe they won’t achieve all of them, but they will at LEAST come close and be much better off. When you set LOW expectations, people respond by not even achieving those.

If priests stressed to their flocks that they need to make confession at least once a month, many will do it, and many won’t make it that often, but they would make it 2-4 times a year at least. Isn’t that INFINITELY better than what we have now? Where people don’t go for decades because their priest never talks about it seriously?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It’s not optional in some parishes. The confessionals don’t have a screen set up.

Thankfully it seems parishes are putting screens back up overall. But some still don’t have anonymous confession available.

Actually, face-to-face has to be optional and anonymous the ordinary.

Its a violation for a parish to force face-to-face only.

But in all, General Absolution eliminates all the problems associated with current confessionals.

Jim

 

[zz912]

But in all, General Absolution eliminates all the problems associated with current confessionals.

You said earlier that those who weren’t repentant wouldn’t receive forgiveness of sins. Since the people in mortal sin the pews on Sunday are too lazy to go to Confession when offered, how are they repentant?

By your own standard, they wouldn’t receive forgiveness and General Absolution doesn’t address the problem at all.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You said earlier that those who weren’t repentant wouldn’t receive forgiveness of sins. Since the people in mortal sin the pews on Sunday are too lazy to go to Confession when offered, how are they repentant?

.

At that point, its between them and God.

However, you’re painting with a broad brush in assuming people in mortal sin are too lazy to go to Confession.

For all you know, they came to Mass on a Sunday, because Christ came into their lives and calls them to go to Mass. They sincerely repent and now they can receive General Absolution and receive Holy Communion. What a blessing!

It sounds like you prefer to keep sinners outside looking in.

Jim

 

[zz912]

At that point, its between them and God.

However, you’re painting with a broad brush in assuming people in mortal sin are too lazy to go to Confession.

For all you know, they came to Mass on a Sunday, because Christ came into their lives and calls them to go to Mass. They sincerely repent and now they can receive General Absolution and receive Holy Communion. What a blessing!

It sounds like you prefer to keep sinners outside looking in.

Jim

How utterly silly. If Christ came into their life, then they can participate in Mass, refrain from Communion to show how obedient they wish to be to Christ, and then after Mass go to their priest and ask for confession. Of the priests I’ve known, I have yet to find one that has EVER turned down my request for confession, even if they were extremely busy. No one is denied, and the repentant can show their change of heart to God right on the spot. No need to water down Church teaching on Confession.

Your uncharitable categorizing of my views is noted.

 

[pnewton]

It sounds like you prefer to keep sinners outside looking in.

Confession is how you move people trapped in sin from the outside to the inside and their location is not relevant without conversion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Confession is how you move people trapped in sin from the outside to the inside and their location is not relevant without conversion.

We don’t do anything, Christ does.

The person is drawn to Jesus and realizing their sin, seeks a savoir, whom they find in Jesus.

Repent means literally, “to change the mind and heart.”

This is what confession is for and it takes place from the heart before God and the Sacrament of reconciliation is made available to them, however the Church decides.

If General Absolution becomes the norm, it would bring many souls to Christ and we should be overjoyed.

Jim

 

[Suudy]

Of the priests I’ve known, I have yet to find one that has EVER turned down my request for confession, even if they were extremely busy.

Not that I agree with JimR, but I have had the experience of a priest too busy. I walked into the office asking to meet with Father for reconciliation. The receptionist walked into his office and I overheard him say “Tell him to go to our other parish. My calendar is too full today.” I never sought out that priest again.

Indeed, I called Fr Pacwa on Catholic Answers about this very situation years ago, and Fr Pacwa was shocked the priest didn’t drop everything he was doing to hear a confession.

However, in my experience it usually isn’t the priest that declines, but his staff. I have called on occasion to make an appointment, and several times I’ve heard “Father hears confession every Saturday from 3:30 to 4:30. Come then.” If one could wait, why would one call to make an appointment?

Our current parish has 2 priests. One of them is spectacular in his responsiveness. He has even said during mass that “My door is open 24 hours a day for confession and anointing of the sick. My cell phone number is in the bulletin.” I’ve never tested his statement, and God willing I won’t need to, but the fact he advertises is amazing to me.

 

[pnewton]

If General Absolution becomes the norm, it would bring many souls to Christ and we should be overjoyed.

That is one big if. There has been no indication or move to do away with Confession. It has proven too valuable a tool of mercy. In all my years, you are the first person I know that thinks it would be good. I have never heard a Church leader say we should dump it.

 

[Memaw]

A Delaware superior court judge has questioned the constitutionality of a state law that protects the secrecy of sacramental confession.State law mandates the reporting of suspected …

More…

The Church existed LONG before the Constitution. God Bless, Memaw

 

[WKW_69]

If I am reading the story correctly, the judges is only saying it could be unconstitutional if it is only interpreted as applying to religions that consider penitent to religious confessions to be a sacrament. So if the law only applies to Catholics and Orthodox, but not to say a Presbyterian confiding their sorrow and contrition to their pastor then it is giving one religion preference in conversations over others.I don’t think she is saying that the confidentiality of Catholic confession should be removed so much as the law should apply to any confession in a religious setting, regardless of the belief in the sacramental nature of said confession.

The law applies to all religions. Scientology has a secrecy clause in their beliefs for their auditing. If he rules it is unconstitutional then an appeal will probably over rule him.

 

[otjm]

There are two cases involving the penitential seal of which I am aware. One is from Oregon, and involved the state action of taping Fr. Mockaitis when a prisoner spoke with him in a penitential setting (Mockaitis v. Harcleroad, 938 F Supp. 1516).

the other case appears to be ongoing: Rebecca Mayeux claims that she told Fr. Jeff Bayhi, pastor of St. John the Baptist Church in Zachary, La. on three different occasions that she was kissed and fondled by a now-dead lay member of the parish.

The case was tried when the parents sued the diocese and the priest for not reporting the allegation to police. they won; it was appealed to the Court of Appeals which supported the priest/penitent seal; then the Supreme Court of Louisiana said that the woman could testify, and that it was up to the District (trial) Court to determine “whether the communications between the child and the priest were confessions per se and whether the priest obtained knowledge outside the confessional that would trigger his duty to report.”

The diocese appealed to the U.S, Supreme Court,w hich refused to her the case, and so it is back to the trial court.

An article in NCR (not my favorite rag sheet) does a good job of setting out the issues, including four possible scenarios in the trial court.

ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/seal-confession-court-docket

 

[Tim_D]

That is one big if.

No doubt. The insistence that since it was done for the first 4 centuries then it is perfectly fine to do now is not only silly but also plain ignorant. Confession had not been elevated to the status of a sacrament in the early centuries of the Church. To abandon personal confession for general absolution at every Mass would be an enormous step backwards. What’s next? Take home communion? It was done in the the early years of the Church, so it should be ok to do now, eh?

 

[zz912]

We don’t do anything, Christ does.

The person is drawn to Jesus and realizing their sin, seeks a savoir, whom they find in Jesus.

Repent means literally, “to change the mind and heart.”

This is what confession is for and it takes place from the heart before God and the Sacrament of reconciliation is made available to them, however the Church decides.

If General Absolution becomes the norm, it would bring many souls to Christ and we should be overjoyed.

If they have truly repented, what is preventing them from going to Confession? Your view on General Absolution seems predicated on a belief that Confession is unavailable to people, and they are fighting tooth and nail to get their sins forgiven. This assumption hasn’t been substantiated yet.

 

[zz912]

Not that I agree with JimR, but I have had the experience of a priest too busy. I walked into the office asking to meet with Father for reconciliation. The receptionist walked into his office and I overheard him say “Tell him to go to our other parish. My calendar is too full today.” I never sought out that priest again.

Indeed, I called Fr Pacwa on Catholic Answers about this very situation years ago, and Fr Pacwa was shocked the priest didn’t drop everything he was doing to hear a confession.

However, in my experience it usually isn’t the priest that declines, but his staff. I have called on occasion to make an appointment, and several times I’ve heard “Father hears confession every Saturday from 3:30 to 4:30. Come then.” If one could wait, why would one call to make an appointment?

Our current parish has 2 priests. One of them is spectacular in his responsiveness. He has even said during mass that “My door is open 24 hours a day for confession and anointing of the sick. My cell phone number is in the bulletin.” I’ve never tested his statement, and God willing I won’t need to, but the fact he advertises is amazing to me.

Your example makes my point though. It was years ago that this happened to you, and was a one-time thing. There may be a surly priest here or there, but the VAST majority of priests are all-too-happy to hear a confession at the drop of a hat.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No doubt. The insistence that since it was done for the first 4 centuries then it is perfectly fine to do now is not only silly but also plain ignorant. Confession had not been elevated to the status of a sacrament in the early centuries of the Church. To abandon personal confession for general absolution at every Mass would be an enormous step backwards. What’s next? Take home communion? It was done in the the early years of the Church, so it should be ok to do now, eh?

Confession had not been elevated to a sacrament in the early Church ?

The Church didn’t make the Sacraments, Christ did.

Heck, from the Baltimore Catechism;

What is a Sacrament?

Answer: A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Confession of sins was part of the early Church,

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. James 5:16

So don’t accuse me of being ignorant.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If they have truly repented, what is preventing them from going to Confession? Your view on General Absolution seems predicated on a belief that Confession is unavailable to people, and they are fighting tooth and nail to get their sins forgiven. This assumption hasn’t been substantiated yet.

Confession is often unavailable at the time the person needs it, as most parishes have a scheduled time, usually Saturday afternoon in my dioceses.

If a person can’t make it then, because of various reasons, he/she could not receive Holy Communion if they’re in a state of mortal sin.

People who do make it to confession, are given absolution and the priest tells them as he tells everyone else, to say an Our Father and one Hail Mary as penance. No spiritual direction or anything beyond scripted confession. Many Catholics see it as a waste of time and don’t bother to go to Confession, as most priests will tell you, the lines aren’t very long if any at all.

As far as General Absolution, this is my opinion, and the Church hasn’t even discussed the practice of General Absolution lately, although they did back in the 1970’s.

If it happens, Praise God !

If not, pray that Confession remains available.

As many places are heading toward parishes without priests, the practice of General Absolution may become a necessity.

Sorry if this upsets you, but its the reality in the Church today.

Jim

 

[Tim_D]

Confession had not been elevated to a sacrament in the early Church ? ,

"Beginnings of practising the sacrament of penance in the form of individual confession as we know it now, i.e. bringing confession of sins and reconciliation together, can be traced back to 11th century.[22]

In 1215 the Fourth Council of the Lateran made it canon law that every Catholic Christian goes to confession in his parish at least once a year."

So, your suggestion would involve flying in the face of 801 years of canon law not to mention abandoning the 1,000 year old practice of confession and reconciliation. All for what?

Confession of sins was part of the early Church,

The sacrament as we know it today dates to the 11th century. In the early Church, it was common for people to bring home consecrated bread to partake of during the week. Do you suggest that we adopt the same practice today since it was “part of the early Church?”

 

[Tim_D]

Many Catholics see it as a waste of time and don’t bother to go to Confession.

Many Catholics say the same about going to Mass.

So should we just abandon the obligation all together just as you would the practice of personal confession?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Tim_D;

"Beginnings of practising the sacrament of penance in the form of individual confession as we know it now, i.e. bringing confession of sins and reconciliation together, can be traced back to 11th century.[22]

This isn’t the institution of the Sacrament of Confession, but the method used.

Prior to this, private confessions were prohibited by the Pope and Confession of Apostasy had to be made publicly before the congregation.

The method of confessing changed to private Confessions because of the persecution of the clergy in Europe, where in some areas, priest were not allowed outside monastery walls. So, they constructed a room with a window on the outside wall where they could provide spiritual guidance to members of the faith who came into the room. While providing guidance, they would end up hearing confession and in turn it became so popular, that the Church revoked the earlier ban, and began ministering the Sacrament in private and it has remain that way since.

Confession was not elevated to a Sacrament in the 12th century, but was a sacrament from the beginning of the Church.

Jim