Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional [CWN]

[JimR-OCDS]

Many Catholics say the same about going to Mass.

So should we just abandon the obligation all together just as you would the practice of personal confession?

I’m not talking about Catholics who don’t go to Mass, for they lack in faith to begin with.

I’m talking about the faithful who do go to Mass, but for whatever reason, could not make it to a scheduled Confession time.

Jim

 

[pnewton]

I’m not talking about Catholics who don’t go to Mass, for they lack in faith to begin with.

I’m talking about the faithful who do go to Mass, but for whatever reason, could not make it to a scheduled Confession time.

Jim

Doesn’t your priest allow for people that cannot make the scheduled time or need more time to simply schedule an appointment for that? I though all parish priests allowed this.

 

[zz912]

Confession is often unavailable at the time the person needs it, as most parishes have a scheduled time, usually Saturday afternoon in my dioceses.

If a person can’t make it then, because of various reasons, he/she could not receive Holy Communion if they’re in a state of mortal sin.

They can always call the office to make an appointment. Or speak to their priest about making it more frequent. Many parishes are beginning to offer confession at different times, especially during Lent and Advent. They are having special events, even in the evening for those who work. Some parishes have weeknight confession once a month for just such people who can’t make it on Saturday.

And again, they can always come early or stay after Mass and ask the priest for confession right then. I’ve never had a priest deny my request (one told me to wait 15 minutes while he finished a time-sensitive task).

People who do make it to confession, are given absolution and the priest tells them as he tells everyone else, to say an Our Father and one Hail Mary as penance. No spiritual direction or anything beyond scripted confession. Many Catholics see it as a waste of time and don’t bother to go to Confession, as most priests will tell you, the lines aren’t very long if any at all.

Now you’re falling back on the claim that people do have the ability to go to confession, but they just don’t see a need. So are they actually contrite and repentant?

And the reason people today don’t see a need for Confession is because their priests don’t mention it or teach about the need for it.

As far as General Absolution, this is my opinion, and the Church hasn’t even discussed the practice of General Absolution lately, although they did back in the 1970’s.

If it happens, Praise God !

I’m of the opposite opinion. I would see it as more punishment God is handing down to us. More watering down of the faith, and will result in even fewer people practicing their faith. The more you lower standards, the more people stop trying to reach them.

If not, pray that Confession remains available.

As many places are heading toward parishes without priests, the practice of General Absolution may become a necessity.

Of course it will. And with more and more younger priests being ordained, who are more fervent for the faith, I think you will see confession times increasing.

Sorry if this upsets you, but its the reality in the Church today.

I’m not upset. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I’m upset.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

z912;

They can always call the office to make an appointment. Or speak to their priest about making it more frequent. Many parishes are beginning to offer confession at different times, especially during Lent and Advent. They are having special events, even in the evening for those who work. Some parishes have weeknight confession once a month for just such people who can’t make it on Saturday.

Nice of you to speak for other parishes and people. Your experience isn’t the norm throughout, the Catholic world, believe me.

And again, they can always come early or stay after Mass and ask the priest for confession right then. I’ve never had a priest deny my request (one told me to wait 15 minutes while he finished a time-sensitive task).

After Mass ? Then the person can’t receive Holy Communion if they’re in a state of mortal sin. How sad !

Now you’re falling back on the claim that people do have the ability to go to confession, but they just don’t see a need. So are they actually contrite and repentant?

I’m not falling back on anything, just expressing my 65 years experience as a Catholic and knowing what many other Catholics think with regards to Confession.

And the reason people today don’t see a need for Confession is because their priests don’t mention it or teach about the need for it.

And I’m not sure the homily is the place to preach it and I have never heard a priest talk about the need for the people to go to Confession during a homily.

Generally, the homily centers around the readings, and I have never heard one about going to Confession. Perhaps its how priests are trained and the directives from our Bishops ?

I’m of the opposite opinion. I would see it as more punishment God is handing down to us. More watering down of the faith, and will result in even fewer people practicing their faith. The more you lower standards, the more people stop trying to reach them.

God does not punish us, we separate ourselves from God and suffer the consequence. Read Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and now Pope Francis.
They preach about God’s mercy, not punishment.

Especially in this year of mercy, we need to understand that God is a God of mercy, not retribution.

And with more and more younger priests being ordained, who are more fervent for the faith, I think you will see confession times increasing.

Actually more and more parishes are closing do to the lack of priests.

My parish has one priest. His schedule is tight.

I’m not upset. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I’m upset.

Good, because your tone says otherwise.

Jim

 

[pnewton]

Nice of you to speak for other parishes and people. Your experience isn’t the norm throughout, the Catholic world, believe me.

Rather than assuming on thing is true, or another, let us put the question out. Does anyone have a priest or know a parish where one cannot schedule or ask a priest to hear a confession if one is unable to make the scheduled time?

As far as missing Holy Communion, the Mass is eternal. There is almost always another coming up soon. I really do not see how anyone who seriously want to go to confession could not do so and find some way shortly thereafter to receive communion. Am I missing something?

 

[SpeakInSilence]

i’m not talking about catholics who don’t go to mass, for they lack in faith to begin with.

I’m talking about the faithful who do go to mass, but for whatever reason, could not make it to a scheduled confession time.

Jim

ccc 1483

in case of grave necessity recourse may be had to a communal celebration of reconciliation with general confession and general absolution. grave necessity of this sort can arise when there is imminent danger of death without sufficient time for the priest or priests to hear each penitent’s confession. grave necessity can also exist when, given the number of penitents, there are not enough confessors to hear individual confessions properly in a reasonable time, so that the penitents through no fault of their own would be deprived of sacramental grace or holy communion for a long time. In this case, for the absolution to be valid the faithful must have the intention of individually confessing their grave sins in the time required.92 the diocesan bishop is the judge of whether or not the conditions required for general absolution exist.93 a large gathering of the faithful on the occasion of major feasts or pilgrimages does not constitute a case of grave necessity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

ccc 1483

Yeah, I know what current Church teaching is on General Absolution.

However, its not dogma and can be changed if the Church leaders are moved to do so.

Jim

 

[Tim_D]

Tim_D;

This isn’t the institution of the Sacrament of Confession, but the method used.

Prior to this, private confessions were prohibited by the Pope and Confession of Apostasy had to be made publicly before the congregation.

The method of confessing changed to private Confessions because of the persecution of the clergy in Europe, where in some areas, priest were not allowed outside monastery walls. So, they constructed a room with a window on the outside wall where they could provide spiritual guidance to members of the faith who came into the room. While providing guidance, they would end up hearing confession and in turn it became so popular, that the Church revoked the earlier ban, and began ministering the Sacrament in private and it has remain that way since.

Confession was not elevated to a Sacrament in the 12th century, but was a sacrament from the beginning of the Church.

Jim

Nonetheless, the current practice of personal dates back to 1,000 years ago and I would be willing to bet that neither Pope Francis or the head of the Congregation of Doctrine and Faith would sign on to any initiative to abandon the current practice and simply replace it with a general absolution. The reality of a married priesthood has more chance of happening than what you propose.

Also, one at a general absolution still has the obligation to confess any serious sins as soon as possible to a priest. The idea that general absolution is a readily available solution to a supposed lack of confessions is a false one.

 

[Tim_D]

Yeah, I know what current Church teaching is on General Absolution.

Apparently you don’t since you are still making the same mistake in thinking that a general absolution takes care of everything. It doesn’t. Serious personal sin still needs to be confessed.

However, its not dogma and can be changed if the Church leaders are moved to do so.

Honestly, do you really think that the Church would so radically change one of the key pillars of the faith for reasons that you can’t even put forth?

 

[adamhovey1988]

How many of y’all are familiar with what the communist government did with the Bulgarian Orthodox Church? Reminds me of that situation.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Doctors, lawyers and clergy have the right to confidentiality in what they are told under their circumstances, in this case a priest who hears a person’s confession. Will this judge seek to over turn confidentiality of doctors and lawyers as well ?

Jim

The ethics of those professions already dictate that the confidentiality privilege is lost if failure to disclose reasonably could or will result in harm to the client and/or a third party. I would say there is a darn good case to be made against the constitutionality of the priest-penitent privilege on the grounds that no such ethical standard exists to balance the privilege.

 

[zz912]

Nice of you to speak for other parishes and people. Your experience isn’t the norm throughout, the Catholic world, believe me.

Please explain more. Are priests in your diocese unwilling to give confessions outside normal scheduled times? Does your parish and/or diocese not have special penance services and confessions during Lent and Advent? Which diocese are you located in?

After Mass ? Then the person can’t receive Holy Communion if they’re in a state of mortal sin. How sad !

Why is it sad? I think it is important and valuable that a person experience some of the consequences of their mortal sin, and it helps them to realize the seriousness of their sin. Hopefully they will think better next time and realize they are choosing mortal sin over Jesus, and choosing to be separated from Him. It may give them some opportunity to grow and begin to avoid sin.

I’m not falling back on anything, just expressing my 65 years experience as a Catholic and knowing what many other Catholics think with regards to Confession.

You can’t have it both ways. Either confessions are too rare for people to get to, and General Absolution is needed, or confessions are available, but people don’t care to receive one. Which is it?

And I’m not sure the homily is the place to preach it and I have never heard a priest talk about the need for the people to go to Confession during a homily.

There are few BETTER times to speak about confession than during the homily. Considering the condition of the Church today, a priest should be bringing up and teaching on confession at least once a month in the homily.

Generally, the homily centers around the readings, and I have never heard one about going to Confession. Perhaps its how priests are trained and the directives from our Bishops ?

I’m unaware of how priests and bishops are trained. But I personally see confession as one of the easiest topics to talk about for homilies. And MANY readings relate to or can be tied into confession.

Take a look at last Sunday’s reading. All three readings talk about how they realize how sinful they are when they are in God’s Presence. EXTREMELY easy for the priest to relate this to how we should be at EVERY Mass, and how we should seriously reflect on our sins because we ARE in God’s Presence. And if we have mortal sins, then we need to take God’s burning love, like in the first reading, and go to confession to have it burned away from our soul.

God does not punish us, we separate ourselves from God and suffer the consequence. Read Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and now Pope Francis.
They preach about God’s mercy, not punishment.

Especially in this year of mercy, we need to understand that God is a God of mercy, not retribution.

Yes, God has perfect mercy, but also perfect justice. If we reject His mercy, He won’t force it upon us. And that punishment will be fearsome.

Actually more and more parishes are closing do to the lack of priests.

Perhaps because priests have avoided talking about the need for confession and repentance for 50 years. If there is no sin, no need for repentance, no need for confession, then there is no need to go to Church. Priests of the last 50 years have avoided telling people about why they need God’s mercy, and the people got the message and stopped attending.

My parish has one priest. His schedule is tight.

And I’m willing to bet that he is more than happy to squeeze in a confession at any time of the day. Is your parish hosting some penance services and special confession times this Lent?

 

[zz912]

The ethics of those professions already dictate that the confidentiality privilege is lost if failure to disclose reasonably could or will result in harm to the client and/or a third party. I would say there is a darn good case to be made against the constitutionality of the priest-penitent privilege on the grounds that no such ethical standard exists to balance the privilege.

Confessions deal with sins already committed. You can’t go into the confessional and confess sins you are going to commit.

 

[ARSpade]

Confession is often unavailable at the time the person needs it, as most parishes have a scheduled time, usually Saturday afternoon in my dioceses.

If a person can’t make it then, because of various reasons, he/she could not receive Holy Communion if they’re in a state of mortal sin.

People who do make it to confession, are given absolution and the priest tells them as he tells everyone else, to say an Our Father and one Hail Mary as penance. No spiritual direction or anything beyond scripted confession. Many Catholics see it as a waste of time and don’t bother to go to Confession, as most priests will tell you, the lines aren’t very long if any at all.
…
Sorry if this upsets you, but its the reality in the Church today.

Jim

Maybe where you are.

I go to confession in the Diocese of Arlington or Washington (live in one, work in the other).

My home parish does confessions twice for well over an hour on Saturday (morning and afternoon) and every Wednesday evening during adoration.
The two churches in DC near where I work do Confessions every day from 1130 to 1200 (before noon mass) and more not during work times. My wife works in NOVA and it’s the same story.

If your pastor doesn’t take it seriously and has poor scheduled time, maybe you should talk to him. Or put together a group and talk to him. Ask for better times and improvements (our priests also preach about the importance of confessions). The laity isn’t supposed to be passive. Show him a demand. Write the Bishop’s office and say you’re concerned and ask what you can do to help improve things.

Ours are always full. I’ve shown up with 40 minutes left in confession and barely gotten in before mass started.

And some of our priests go on for so long with spiritual direction that I get concerned about the other people waiting in line. Confession really isn’t for spiritual direction after all anyway.

Sorry if it upsets you, but I guess that’s the reality of the poor state of your local church. Maybe you should fix that.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Confessions deal with sins already committed. You can’t go into the confessional and confess sins you are going to commit.

You can go into the confessional and confess crimes you have committed and continue to commit. A continuence of abuse can be reasonably inferred. Victims can, and have, reported the abuse they are subjected to in the confessional. In these cases, the Catholic Church has maintained that it has no obligation to disclose these things because of the confessional seal regardless of what confession is supposed to be for. That is wrong and immoral.

 

[vz71]

You can go into the confessional and confess crimes you have committed and continue to commit. A continuence of abuse can be reasonably inferred. Victims can, and have, reported the abuse they are subjected to in the confessional. In these cases, the Catholic Church has maintained that it has no obligation to disclose these things because of the confessional seal regardless of what confession is supposed to be for. That is wrong and immoral.

Your made up scenario does not hold water.
People go to confession to confess their sins, not to report sins committed against them by others.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Your made up scenario does not hold water.
People go to confession to confess their sins, not to report sins committed against them by others.

You’ll have to back-peddle on that claim:

"The case involves a woman who claims that in 2008, when she was 14, she told her pastor she was sexually abused by a now-deceased church parishioner. The woman, Rebecca Mayeux, has said the Rev. Jeff Bayhi, of Our Lady of the Assumption in Clinton, responded by telling her it was her problem and she should “sweep it under the floor and get rid of it.”

In 2009, Mayeux’s parents sued Bayhi, the Baton Rouge diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, and George Charlet Jr., the man who allegedly abused her. They argued in the lawsuit that the priest neglected his duty under state law to report the alleged abuse to authorities.

The Baton Rouge Diocese has said Bayhi responded appropriately because the information came to him during confession, a sacrament that includes a seal of confidentiality no priest can break."

 

[vz71]

You’ll have to back-peddle on that claim:

Do you really want to argue that the purpose of confession is not what the church says it is?

 

[Suudy]

You’ll have to back-peddle on that claim:

"The case involves a woman who claims that in 2008, when she was 14, she told her pastor she was sexually abused by a now-deceased church parishioner. The woman, Rebecca Mayeux, has said the Rev. Jeff Bayhi, of Our Lady of the Assumption in Clinton, responded by telling her it was her problem and she should “sweep it under the floor and get rid of it.”

In 2009, Mayeux’s parents sued Bayhi, the Baton Rouge diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, and George Charlet Jr., the man who allegedly abused her. They argued in the lawsuit that the priest neglected his duty under state law to report the alleged abuse to authorities.

The Baton Rouge Diocese has said Bayhi responded appropriately because the information came to him during confession, a sacrament that includes a seal of confidentiality no priest can break."

True or false? The information was received during confession.

Nothing discussed during confession may be discussed. And there’s no obligation on the penitent to maintain secrecy of the confessional. Only the confessor is so bound.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Do you really want to argue that the purpose of confession is not what the church says it is?

It doesn’t matter what the church says it is. What matters is what happens in reality.