Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional [CWN]

[Memaw]

It doesn’t matter what the church says it is. What matters is what happens in reality.

Spoken like a true non-Catholic! God Bless, Memaw

 

[otjm]

The priest should have urged her while in the confessional to report the abuse of her and to tell her it isn’t her fault.

We will never know; likely what we will get is one side of the story - the young (now grown) woman’s.

And excuse me if I am a cynic, but because we will never hear the Priest’s side, who knows - maybe he did? She certainly has incentive to tell a story which supports her side. Maybe the truth, and maybe not.

In any event, it is likely that the diocese will be talking with their insurance company to see if any award made to her/her family is covered under their policy.

 

[fred_conty]

Confession means confessing our sins to God, first and foremost.

If you commit a mortal sin which you know is a mortal sin, and are most sorry for offending God, you best confess and repent to Him first, for you don’t know if you’ll ever make it to a priest to confess. You could be killed on the way to confession or some other circumstance keep you from making a formal confession to a priest.

Remember, the Sacrament is called, “Reconciliation,” and this means we are reconciled to the Church, which we have harmed through our sin.

Also, the true definition for sin is, “to miss the mark,” its akin to an archer shooting an arrow toward his target, but misses.

So it is with us, We strive to avoid committing sin, but when we do, we missed the mark of our intended goal.

In this the year of Mercy, we need to understand that God is not a God of retributive justice, but of mercy and restorative justice,

Jim

I do admire your love of all catholics and your zealous thoughts for them, but after thinking it over, these are my thoughts on the subject.

We know that anyone can reinstate themselves in the love of God by a perfect contrition, but not thru an imperfect contrition. And if a person had made a perfect contrition, then I could see that what you said about reconciliation to the church would make sense, since the perfect contrition had already reconciled themselves to God.

But imperfect contrition is a different story, since it does not reconcile a person to God outside of confession. I’m not so sure that this could be changed, but not sure it couldn’t be either. But for now that is the way it stands.

In my own family, I know that most could not make a perfect contrition since they are completely wrapped up in getting ahead or enjoying themselves in one way or another, or have taken a leave of absence from God temporarily. And so God is merciful to people giving them confession where they only have to have imperfect contrition for them to be reconciled. And thank goodness for that so that anyone with a little faith can be made ok again.

I also think that the early church probably had confession even tho there may be a lack of evidence for it. For it says in the bible to confess your sins to one another.

I’m not sure about the truth of what I’m going to say. But I would suspect that the boys in the service who received general absolution were told to make a particular confession of their sins later on when they had time to make a confession. I am not sure of this but I would think so.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I do admire your love of all catholics and your zealous thoughts for them, but after thinking it over, these are my thoughts on the subject.

We know that anyone can reinstate themselves in the love of God by a perfect contrition, but not thru an imperfect contrition. And if a person had made a perfect contrition, then I could see that what you said about reconciliation to the church would make sense, since the perfect contrition had already reconciled themselves to God.

But imperfect contrition is a different story, since it does not reconcile a person to God outside of confession. I’m not so sure that this could be changed, but not sure it couldn’t be either. But for now that is the way it stands.

In my own family, I know that most could not make a perfect contrition since they are completely wrapped up in getting ahead or enjoying themselves in one way or another, or have taken a leave of absence from God temporarily. And so God is merciful to people giving them confession where they only have to have imperfect contrition for them to be reconciled. And thank goodness for that so that anyone with a little faith can be made ok again.

I also think that the early church probably had confession even tho there may be a lack of evidence for it. For it says in the bible to confess your sins to one another.

I’m not sure about the truth of what I’m going to say. But I would suspect that the boys in the service who received general absolution were told to make a particular confession of their sins later on when they had time to make a confession. I am not sure of this but I would think so.

I believe there are people who go to confession and still have imperfect contrition, but do so out of a sense of “just in case,” type mentality.

As it was, when I was growing up before Vatican II and everyone went to Confession on Saturdays, most went to the priest who was easy, and fast. So, how perfect would their contrition be, only God knows.

In fact, the bottom line is, only God knows the heart, so even in a general absolution situation, there will be people with perfect contrition and those without and only God will know.

I don’t know what its like in your parish, but in mine, where my wife and myself go to confession about every six weeks or sooner if necessary, we rarely see more than one other person there, and its usually the same person who I know personally and she suffers from scrupulosity.

Only God forgives sin, as the Catechism says, so our first response must be to turn to God with a contrite heart and repent of our sins.

Jim

 

[zz912]

I believe there are people who go to confession and still have imperfect contrition, but do so out of a sense of “just in case,” type mentality.

As it was, when I was growing up before Vatican II and everyone went to Confession on Saturdays, most went to the priest who was easy, and fast. So, how perfect would their contrition be, only God knows.

Imperfect contrition is sufficient for absolution and forgiveness of sins in Confession. This is Church teaching.

I don’t know what its like in your parish, but in mine, where my wife and myself go to confession about every six weeks or sooner if necessary, we rarely see more than one other person there, and its usually the same person who I know personally and she suffers from scrupulosity.

How many times has your pastor spoke about confession, given strong homilies on the need for confession, and been forceful when talking about WHY we have confession and WHY people needs it?

Only God forgives sin, as the Catechism says, so our first response must be to turn to God with a contrite heart and repent of our sins.

Agreed.

 

[ProdigalSun]

I believe there are people who go to confession and still have imperfect contrition, but do so out of a sense of “just in case,” type mentality.

As it was, when I was growing up before Vatican II and everyone went to Confession on Saturdays, most went to the priest who was easy, and fast. So, how perfect would their contrition be, only God knows.

In fact, the bottom line is, only God knows the heart, so even in a general absolution situation, there will be people with perfect contrition and those without and only God will know.

I don’t know what its like in your parish, but in mine, where my wife and myself go to confession about every six weeks or sooner if necessary, we rarely see more than one other person there, and its usually the same person who I know personally and she suffers from scrupulosity.

Only God forgives sin, as the Catechism says, so our first response must be to turn to God with a contrite heart and repent of our sins.

Jim

Well I can understand why the confession line in your parish is non-existent if the parishioners have the same erroneous understanding of reconciliation that you do. In my Diocese I go to regular confession and they is always lineups no matter where I go. On Tuesday nights in my small home town Parish we have Mass, Adoration, Benediction. The Confessional starts after Mass during Adoration and there is always a large line-up. Sometimes I don’t get home until 10pm. Our Bishop and many priests talk about and explain confession on a regular basis.

Peace

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well I can understand why the confession line in your parish is non-existent if the parishioners have the same erroneous understanding of reconciliation that you do. :

My erroneous understanding ? How bout getting off your high-horse and stop with the insults ?

My understanding is what the Church teaches.

Fact is, my parish is no different than others in my state.

Few Catholics are going to Confession and this is according to priests in the dioceses, not just my personal opinion.

Jim

 

[ProdigalSun]

My erroneous understanding ? How bout getting off your high-horse and stop with the insults ?

My understanding is what the Church teaches.

Fact is, my parish is no different than others in my state.

Few Catholics are going to Confession and this is according to priests in the dioceses, not just my personal opinion.

Jim

Hey now I ride a Pony.:tiphat:

• The church teaches that normal and proper way to return to friendship of God is to avail yourself of Confession.
• The Church teaches that even with an imperfect act of contrition you can be forgiven in the confessional.
• The Church teaches that only a perfect act of contrition can be made for forgiveness outside of the confessional. Do you know what a perfect act of contrition is?
• The church teaches that one can not know for sure if one has made a perfect act of contrition.

To put this into perspective, if you are in mortal sin, one should not go to receive communion until after you have gone for confession. A possible perfect act of contrition is not an alternative to confession, in order to be able to receive communion.

Peace to you!

p.s. sorry if I insulted you with erroneous, not my intention. I’ve been told I don’t have much of a filter when using words. I just don’t believe, from what I have read here that you have a complete understanding of this.

 

[zz912]

Few Catholics are going to Confession and this is according to priests in the dioceses, not just my personal opinion.

Because the priests aren’t preaching about confession and why it is needed and why it is beautiful. When you ignore a Church teaching, don’t be surprised that people forget about it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Because the priests aren’t preaching about confession and why it is needed and why it is beautiful. When you ignore a Church teaching, don’t be surprised that people forget about it.

It’s a presumption on your part.

Confession is taught throughout a person’s religious education and the parish priests emphasize it.

However, people aren’t going for various reasons and most that I’ve listened to, say they just confess to God directly. Well, at least they get the first part right.

Also, the sex abuse scandal did not help when it comes to the sacrament of Confession, as many of the abused were assaulted in confessional situations.

This shouldn’t destroy the beauty of the Sacrament, but it did remove the desire to confess to a priest, and that’s a fact of life in the Catholic Church.

Jim

 

[ProdigalSun]

It’s a presumption on your part.

Confession is taught throughout a person’s religious education and the parish priests emphasize it.

However, people aren’t going for various reasons and most that I’ve listened to, say they just confess to God directly. Well, at least they get the first part right.

Also, the sex abuse scandal did not help when it comes to the sacrament of Confession, as many of the abused were assaulted in confessional situations.

This shouldn’t destroy the beauty of the Sacrament, but it did remove the desire to confess to a priest, and that’s a fact of life in the Catholic Church.

If people are not going to confession and going “straight” to God then they put their souls at risk. Very sad indeed. As for your scandal assumption that is what it is. let see some sources here.

I find confession lines in my diocese quite long. Although more could certainly be done.

Instead of letting people think they are just fine maybe you should let people know the truth!

I’m done here.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

ProdigalSun:
Would’ve been nice had you separated my post from your reply, rather than quoting both.

Anyway, people going straight to God, their souls are at risk ?

You can be serious

Jim

 

[otjm]

Would’ve been nice had you separated my post from your reply, rather than quoting both.

Anyway, people going straight to God, their souls are at risk ?

You can be serious

Jim

Catholics are bound by what the Church teaches and requires. That is perhaps a bit simplistic, but I think there is a bit more depth to what the Church requires than just “I said so!”.

Actually confessing sins - rather than sending up an “I’m sorry…” mentally requires a bit more reflection; usually a good bit more confession.

I often liken confession to aspects of a marriage. If one has committed adultery, one needs to do a bit more than just mentally say “I’m sorry” to the spouse. That does not require going into the gory details of the adultery; but it most certainly requires more than just a mental apology. A lot more.

You noted in a prior post about people being taught all along about through their religious education. I beg to differ; there was a period of time where confession was glanced over at best. Talk to people in their 40’s, and those in their 30’s - the ones going to Mass, and you will find an appalling lack of knowledge concerning a great deal of their faith.

some areas of the US re better than others; and it not only various by diocese, but also by parish. When about 20% of Catholics in the ages of 18 to 29 go to Mass regularly, we have a major problem, and it is not just about confession.

I would agree that priests need to spend more time talking about confession, and they need to do it with enthusiasm, not with the “you are going to hell if you don’t” approach that some seem to think is the best. Christ’s narrative of the young man who spent his father’s inheritance certainly does not take that approach.

 

[zz912]

I** often liken confession to aspects of a marriage. **If one has committed adultery, one needs to do a bit more than just mentally say “I’m sorry” to the spouse. That does not require going into the gory details of the adultery; but it most certainly requires more than just a mental apology. A lot more.

This is a good point. Boyfriends and girlfriends tell each other they love them and will be with them till the end of time, and do it frequently. But it’s not the same as actually making those vows in Church, in front of God. No matter how many times a boyfriend/girlfriend says they love you, it isn’t the same as saying “I do” at your wedding, and they are FUNDAMENTALLY different.

 

[zz912]

Anyway, people going straight to God, their souls are at risk ?

You can be serious

I assume you mean “can’t”.

And the entirety of the Catholic Church is God’s message that man shouldn’t go straight to God by themselves. Private prayer/confession/worship/etc is fine, but it does NOT replace the Church.

If people can just go straight to God, why bother being Catholic? Why bother being in the Church? You’ve just undermined the necessity of the Church.

 

[zz912]

It’s a presumption on your part.

Not really. When priests actually preach on confession, teach about it, and explain the necessity and beauty of it, the people respond. Especially if the priest makes confession times more frequent and available.

You can claim I’m being presumptuous, but you haven’t denied that your priests haven’t spoken about Confession in a long time.

Confession is taught throughout a person’s religious education and the parish priests emphasize it.

No it’s not. Even regular Mass attendees are WOEFULLY ignorant of the faith. In some places it is improving, but most Catholics don’t know most of their faith. Many priests talk in bland homilies about being “nice” to each other and in meaningless platitudes but do NOT actually teach the faith.

However, people aren’t going for various reasons and most that I’ve listened to, say they just confess to God directly. Well, at least they get the first part right.

The fact they only do the first part makes it doubtful they are getting anything right. What does their “confessing to God” entail? Most likely a simple mental assent and saying “I’m sorry” with nothing more attached to it. For most I would bet it is vacuous and only skin deep. To actually go to Confession, and list out your sins verbally is FAR different than just a mental “I’m sorry”.

Also, the sex abuse scandal did not help when it comes to the sacrament of Confession, as many of the abused were assaulted in confessional situations.

This shouldn’t destroy the beauty of the Sacrament, but it did remove the desire to confess to a priest, and that’s a fact of life in the Catholic Church.

Then perhaps the priests should spend some time clearing the air on confession, and working to heal these wounds so people will return, instead of ignoring the problem?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I assume you mean “can’t”.

And the entirety of the Catholic Church is God’s message that man shouldn’t go straight to God by themselves. Private prayer/confession/worship/etc is fine, but it does NOT replace the Church.

If people can just go straight to God, why bother being Catholic? Why bother being in the Church? You’ve just undermined the necessity of the Church.

Actually the Church teaches that Only God Forgives Sin.

Jesus gave the authority to the Apostles to forgive sin as well, but this does not replace God.

A person has to first repent to God, whether they confess to a priest or not.

Even in Confession, the priest ask you to make and Act of Confession, before he gives absolution, which isn’t to him, but to God.

The idea that God doesn’t forgive sin unless you make it to a priest in the confessional, is heretical and against what the Church teaches.

Jim

 

[zz912]

Actually the Church teaches that Only God Forgives Sin.

I never said otherwise. Strawman arguments?

Jesus gave the authority to the Apostles to forgive sin as well, but this does not replace God.

I never said otherwise. Another strawman.

A person has to first repent to God, whether they confess to a priest or not.

Never said otherwise.

Even in Confession, the priest ask you to make and Act of Confession, before he gives absolution, which isn’t to him, but to God.

When did I say that the Act of Contrition is directed towards the priest?

The idea that God doesn’t forgive sin unless you make it to a priest in the confessional, is heretical and against what the Church teaches.

Might want to calm down with the Heresy Hammer you’re swinging. You’re creating strawman arguments of things I never said. God Himself gave the sacrament of confession, and that’s how He wants mortal sin forgiven through. Of course God CAN forgive sins outside of the confessional, but He doesn’t have to, and He may not if someone obstinately refuses to go to Confession.

Now try arguing against what I actually said. You have undermined the need for a Church when you say that people can go directly to God and that is sufficient.

 

[otjm]

The idea that God doesn’t forgive sin unless you make it to a priest in the confessional, is heretical and against what the Church teaches.

Jim

Actually, that is incorrect - it is not a heresy; it is the teaching of the Church.

No one here is saying that priests, instead of God, forgive sins.

To put it another way, we are bound by the sacraments, but God is not bound.

God is not prevented from forgiving a person of their sins because we have not accessed confession.

However, we are bound by confession because God chose to bind us in that way. That does not mean that in rare circumstances, God cannot forgive a person their sins if they could not get to confession.

But neither does that mean that one should presume that God is forgiving one’s sins if one makes a “mental confession”. One is putting themselves at risk in purposely avoiding the means that God gave us for forgiveness.

None of that has anything to do with Protestants, or Hindus, or anyone else out there; that is God’s problem, and God is a God of mercy.

He is also a God of justice; and when we refuse to go to confession (and I seriously doubt there are too many Catholics who do not know we have confession), we tempt that justice at our own immortal peril.

The problem is not people knowing about confession. The problem is that all too many Catholics have been secularized, and the secular world doesn’t believe in mortal sin - it believes people make “mistakes”.

A mistake is wearing a polka dot tie with a striped shirt.

A sin is a choice; a choice to do evil and/or avoid the good. And as I said, if one commits adultery, one needs to do a whole lot more than just make a mental apology to one’s spouse. There needs to be a metanoia, a turning around, an acknowledgement of the wrong done, and a rectification.

For Catholics, there needs to be an aural confession - we need to actually stop, and acknowledge our sinful acts, and part of that is actually orally admitting them.

Who created us? God. Who knows our psychology, down to the finest detail? God. Who set up confession? God.

Just possibly, God had a clue or two about how well we lie to ourselves. Confession means confronting our own sinfulness, and that is far better done using the method God gave us than tempting his justice and mercy by avoiding it

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I never said otherwise. Strawman arguments?

I never said otherwise. Another strawman.

Never said otherwise.

When did I say that the Act of Contrition is directed towards the priest?

Might want to calm down with the Heresy Hammer you’re swinging. You’re creating strawman arguments of things I never said. God Himself gave the sacrament of confession, and that’s how He wants mortal sin forgiven through. Of course God CAN forgive sins outside of the confessional, but He doesn’t have to, and He may not if someone obstinately refuses to go to Confession.

Now try arguing against what I actually said. You have undermined the need for a Church when you say that people can go directly to God and that is sufficient.

Go back and read why you posted for now you’re contradicting yourself.

Jim