Delay in obtaining declaration of nullity

[Matthew_Holford]

I disagree. What a person believes is invalid and what the Church believes is invalid are not necessarily, and often not, the same.

In my own case, I believed my former marriage was perfectly valid, and still do. It is my belief that to believe otherwise is to denigrate marriage. OTOH, the Church has their own rules and knew they would declare it invalid in a heartbeat, which they did. The Church refers to such marriages as putative marriages.

I have no intention of discussing things that I did not say. It is clear that you have misunderstood my post.

 

[Warrior1979]

I have no intention of discussing things that I did not say. It is clear that you have misunderstood my post.

My apologies. I thought you said this:

This just my opinion but I think this should not be the circumstance where one seeks a declaration of nullity. One should seek a declaration of nullity because you think that your marriage is invalid not because you wish to marry someone else. (I use the pronoun you in its plural form and general sense - not personally directed at you.)

One can seek an annulment if they believe their marriage is valid. I am an example of someone that fits your example like a glove. I received an annulment solely for the reason of remarrying and believing that my marriage was valid.

The basic issue is that it doesn’t matter what any of believe regarding marriage. Render to the Church what is the Church’s, as I did.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

My apologies. I thought you said this:

One can seek an annulment if they believe their marriage is valid. I am an example of someone that fits your example like a glove. I received an annulment solely for the reason of remarrying and believing that my marriage was valid.

The basic issue is that it doesn’t matter what any of believe regarding marriage. Render to the Church what is the Church’s, as I did.

You raise a point I do not comprehend. If you believed your marriage valid why did you apply for an annulment. I know the basic answer is to remarry but why impugn it if you thought it was valid. The answer to this is quite personal so I understand completely if you choose to not answer it. It is also not directly relevant to the discussion.

I suspect that I’m not making myself clear. What I’m attempting to say is if you think your marriage invalid, impugn it. Why wait until a need to have an annulment. I realise that if you do not want to marry another person there may be no practical need. It seems to me it could re-enforce the idea that annulment is “Catholic divorce” if we apply for an annulment just to re-marry. Does that make sense?

 

[EvelynEVF]

From some of the folks I’ve talked to, they believe their marriage to be invalid, but after reading the questionnaire, they just can’t make themselves go there. The questions are personal and often painful.

Leaving my marriage was a long, drawn out process of finding the courage and support I needed to leave the abuse. Writing to the Tribunal has been vindicating for me. I have a friend who divorced pretty quickly after finding out the spouse had cheated. That friend is nowhere near ready to begin the process, and may “accidentally” not get around to it until there is a significant other and a felt need for the investigation.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I just have a question.

Why would someone wait to apply for a declaration of nullity until they found someone they wanted to marry?

The process takes time, sometimes more than a year, so any marriage within the Church would have to be postponed until such a time.

Then there is the fact that entering the process does not guarantee that such a declaration with be given. Or if a declaration is given there might be restrictions placed on the person that they must fulfill, such as counseling, before they can attempt a marriage within the Church, or the Church might grant the decree but rule that the individual may not attempt a marriage in the Church because it has determined that they are incapable of understanding what marriage truly is.

So if this is the case would that person still go through with a marriage and if so then why are they applying for the decree at all, just to fill some requirement for a Church wedding but not really caring about the process or what comes out of it?

Or will they tell the person that they want to marry that they are not free to do so and end the relationship if the process does not end in a decree?

 

[Warrior1979]

You raise a point I do not comprehend. If you believed your marriage valid why did you apply for an annulment. I know the basic answer is to remarry but why impugn it if you thought it was valid. The answer to this is quite personal so I understand completely if you choose to not answer it. It is also not directly relevant to the discussion.

Simple…my wife left and divorced me. I fulfilled my vows to my former wife to the best of my abilities, but cannot do so when she is no longer a part of my life. I sought to remarry because I wished to have children.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Br. David, see my post right above yours.

I think people delay because of the pain, and then they just forget about it until someone special shows up and all of a sudden it becomes an issue again. I am aware of plenty of people who at this point are not willing to “jump through the hoops” and they just get married outside the Church. Personally I think we as a Church are often lacking in pastoral care for the divorced and many parishioners in general may not feel a personal connection within the Church. If they feel stigmatized and have no where to go, they may just drift away. I was very fortunate to have very significant relationships within the Church, both to hold me up as I go through the annulment process, and to help me through whatever the outcome may be. I have way too much accountability to be able to drift away, and I am very blessed by that and realize that it is not the norm.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Simple…my wife left and divorced me. I fulfilled my vows to my former wife to the best of my abilities, but cannot do so when she is no longer a part of my life. I sought to remarry because I wished to have children.

Thank you for sharing that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This is good things to keep in mind but I sense a disturbing trend to some posts.

The idea that what the Church Teaches and the way it functions is inherently unpastoral.

The term “pastoral” seems to be a code word for some for doing something other than as the Church prescribes.

What would be the pastoral answer to this issue?

Those that drift away from the Church do not do so because of this. I believe that the “drifting” is a long process with no one thing being the cause. The causes are many fold.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding of what a decree of nullity means. It in no way means that one has not lived the vows of marriage. It just means that a sacramental marriage never took place. It has nothing to do with the time spent in marriage, it is a ruling as to the state of the marriage at the moment it was contracted.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Please don’t misunderstand me! I do not think the way the Church operates is inherently pastoral. I do think that in some times and places, people who are divorced perceive a lack of support. Now, that may be because they don’t want to look, don’t know where to look, are too hurt to look, whatever. The only formal divorce support in my town happens to be Protestant.

I just know that my experience of being enfolded and embraced by Catholic clergy through the whole process does not seem to be shared by many, for whatever reason.

I do agree with you that drifting is a long process. I think that perhaps the divorce/tribunal investigation can be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for people who are not strongly connected to the Church.

 

[Warrior1979]

I do agree with you that drifting is a long process. I think that perhaps the divorce/tribunal investigation can be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for people who are not strongly connected to the Church.

This is absolutely true. It has certainly been the case with me.

It seems to me that a great many people receiving annulments simply have no idea what an annulment is, other than a “Catholic divorce.” That includes my wife, who also received an annulment, as well as every single Catholic I know that received one, yours truly excepted.

That’s why I tell people that want an annulment, whether or not they believe themselves to be validly married, to go file for one. The simple fact of the matter is the most lay people have little understanding of Church’s position on the matter.

 

[Castello]

Do most people never bother to speak to their pastor as the marriage breaks down and the divorce happens? Your pastor should be aware of what is taking place and thus be able to provide guidance and pastoral care and, yes, catechesis.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

It seems some people rather naively believe that they will never remarry, and so they see no reason to rehash all their marital problems in front of a stranger.

There is also the issue that it is easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. It is easier to go through the process once you have a new spouse and family than wait on the decision of a tribunal.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Castello, I do wonder about that. I know an awful lot of people in my parish who are intimidated by the clergy, based on hearsay or assumptions or whatever. Our deacon and pastor are both very tender men, and it saddens me that people are afraid of them or write them off. The deacon is the silliest, funniest man I’ve ever met, and yet one long time parishioner told me a couple months ago that she didn’t know him but she was of the opinion that he had no sense of humor at all. I don’t get it. But in college, I was the one who wasn’t afraid to go talk to my professors, either. When i need help, I go after it.

 

[mamaslo]

It seems some people rather naively believe that they will never remarry, and so they see no reason to rehash all their marital problems in front of a stranger.

There is also the issue that it is easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. It is easier to go through the process once you have a new spouse and family than wait on the decision of a tribunal.

Now this statement, I disagree with. This presumes the person who needs the annulment, who may not be catholic, is a person who loves you truly. Who would do whatever it takes to help you get to heaven. But in my experience, it takes longer because the person has to be convinced somehow that it is something they should even consider doing. Even if it is supposed to be the short form.

It’s easier for whom? On this side of this topic, I know it’s not easier to ask for forgiveness afterward. You presume they will not find the marriage sacramental…not trying to speak angrily at you but these things take longer because it isn’t just the time after handing in the paperwork and waiting. It is the time leading up to that part too, so I am counting 11 years to wait…and counting.

 

[joanofarc2008]

there is no rule. In general the tribunal will not consider a case until a certain period of time, at least a year, has transpired since the marriage has irreconciably broken down, usually signified by civil divorce. But some people apply 20 years later.

In general when people contribute on this forums on annulment threads we are NOT being judgmental, we are stating facts, and attempting to answer the questions as they were posed. If applying those facts to one’s personal situation sounds judgmental, that is a factor of one’s own discernment, not a judgment imposed by the responder.

Please do not look for judgmentalism or ill feeling or personal criticism where none is intended and above all never, never ask for specific advice applicable to your personal situation if you are not prepared to hear an answer.

If a responder broke forum rules on charity in his post, report him to the mods.

I dud ask for some clarification from the Canon lawyer that helps with the Annulment and Divorce Group. He also works for one of the Tribunals in the US - this was his response just for statement of fact:

Hello,

Perhaps there are dioceses that have such a requirement. I don’t know of any, though. All the law has to say is:

“Canon 1674 The following are capable of impugning the validity of a marriage: 1. the spouses themselves; …”

That’s all there is to it–a spouse can introduce a case at any time. If it has all the requirements of such a petition (see c. 1504), the Judge is to accept it. There is one caveat–c. 1676 states: “Before he accepts a case and whenever there appears to be hope of success, the judge is to use pastoral means to persuade the spouses that, if it is possible, they should perhaps validate their marriage and resume their conjugal life.”

Usually, a completed, civil divorce/dissolution is taken to be proof that reconciliation is impossible. Also, when dioceses require the civil divorce/dissolution to come first, it leaves no doubt that the ecclesiastical court has no authority over civil effects of marriage or divorce. However, mandating civil divorce/dissolution is a practical requirement, not a requirement that is in the law.

Again, I have never heard of a one-year wait. If someone can provide proof that a certain diocese does require this, I’d be interested to see it and the rationale used to support it. In my opinion, such a requirement unlawfully restricts the faithful’s exercise of their right to have their presumptively valid marriage examined by the Church. If there is no hope of reconciliation, the petition should be accepted whenever it is legitimately presented to the Tribunal.

 

[joanofarc2008]

This is good things to keep in mind but I sense a disturbing trend to some posts.

The idea that what the Church Teaches and the way it functions is inherently unpastoral.

The term “pastoral” seems to be a code word for some for doing something other than as the Church prescribes.

What would be the pastoral answer to this issue?

Those that drift away from the Church do not do so because of this. I believe that the “drifting” is a long process with no one thing being the cause. The causes are many fold.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding of what a decree of nullity means. It in no way means that one has not lived the vows of marriage. It just means that a sacramental marriage never took place. It has nothing to do with the time spent in marriage, it is a ruling as to the state of the marriage at the moment it was contracted.

I think the pastoral thing to do is to have things like divorce care groups where priests, deacons, or pastoral associates moderate them and let people talk about their experience. We have one online - no priest or deacon - we have a Canon lawyer, but we do the best we can - we have each other. The point is sometimes it is easier to do the right thing when the people to your left and right are supporting you in that. One of the reasons I left my last parish and found my Franciscan Brothers outside my parish boundaries is I was at a very liberal parish that could not understand why I was upholding these laws of the Church in my life. I knew that it would be more difficult for me to do this on my own than to do this with others that cared about me. I know my priests, deacons, and brothers at my parish now would never knowingly put me in a situation that was an occasion of sin. These are just my observations. It is not what people do that makes something pastoral - it is how we respond to what people do. Do we love them to the Confessional? Or do we cajole them there? One is pastoral and one is judgmental IMHO.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Do most people never bother to speak to their pastor as the marriage breaks down and the divorce happens? Your pastor should be aware of what is taking place and thus be able to provide guidance and pastoral care and, yes, catechesis.

I spoke to a total of five. The first was my parish priest that sent me back to my xh after I had the first restraining order. The result of that was that he almost killed me a second time. The next time when my xh finally left I did speak to four other priests/deacons who all told me to not look back and be happy I was alive and done. They said there was never a marriage and something some humorous remarks about easy a case that would be for the tribunal. Feel free to look up my old profile.

We did try marriage counseling. He manipulated the counselor into writing him a counsult for amphetamines for ADD/HD (which he had been treated for in the past but only conjuction with other disorders) with a doctor in the area who was basically known for filling whatever. This made the violent tendencies worse.

I was speaking to deacon that did our marriage counseling once a month but he was four hours away. I was in formation for a Secular Order and my minister and her husband were counseling me pretty much weekly and told me to leave and never look back.

The point I make - and I do really appreciate your question because I believe it is a good one is that when you have a marriage that wasn’t - in other words one that was invalid to start - there are some that can be saved and made valid - there are others that will never be valid because one or both of those participants is just incapable of giving that kind of consent or living those kinds of vows. Although I think it would be nice if priests gave their blessing before a couple separated - it would ease some consciences.

If I had to do it all over again I might have realized the relationshp my xh had with the small town priest at our parish and I may have insisted on pastoral counseling with a different priest at a different parish. I forgot for the moment that priests were people too. However, by the time I realized how bad things were and that there relationship was that strong I couldn’t insist on anything. There were already two gfs in the picture.

 

[Castello]

Although I think it would be nice if priests gave their blessing before a couple separated - it would ease some consciences.

Actually, I’m pretty sure that is the way it is supposed to be done, infact couples are supposed to seek permission to separate. Grrr, wish I had my hands on the documentation.

I am so sad to know there are people out there who do not know they can go to their pastor, and some who may have pastors who will not take the time.

Extra rosary for priests tonight!

 

[EvelynEVF]

Totally true–separating or divorcing couples are to have the permission of their ordinary. In real life that winds up being their pastor as the bishop’s local representative.

My old pastor wanted me to leave, and gave permission/pushed. When I informed the new pastor that I knew I was under his authority in the matter and intended to respect that, he just about fell over.