Demanding proof of God

[Rhuarc]

So, an atheist came up to me the other and demanded that I show the Atheist proof of God’s existence. I told him that the efforts of cause and effect were relevant to the circumstances that require the necessity of a being that would will something from nothing. Yet the atheist states,“This is not proof.”

I’m sure this doesn’t belong here, I’ll be content to know where it does so that I can post these sorts of questions there.

I simply didn’t know what more to say.

Can someone help me? I just don’t know what to say. And I would rather deal with this now before it causes me unnecessary apprehension.

-Karl

I am still breathing is proof enough of God. No one realizes how easy it is to die especially with all the dangers out there in our world. Think about how many car wrecks there are a day, talk about a miracle by just making it from point a to b.

 

[PRmerger]

Three: I don’t think if there is a god, he would be offended by the use of “g” instead of “G”.

I’m not going to argue with you about whether he’d be offended or not.

But I think your comment brings up an interesting thought.

Do you have a concept of the Numinous? That is, of something so incredibly holy it leaves you speechless? Of an entity that is so wondrous that when you approach it you must “remove your sandals”, to use a primitive idiom?

 

[SirWillliam]

User124, if you believe in Satan and his fallen angels, then you must believe in God, too!
I really thought you were an atheist, unless you’re one of the fallen angels who still believes
in God but denies/rejects Him at the same time.

And I noticed you capitalized God twice! Maybe I’m actually getting somewhere with you.

I know you’re not Richard Dawkins, there couldn’t be more than one of that guy on this earth,
but I do have the impression that you are an atheist. If I’m wrong, tell me.

 

[User124]

I’m not going to argue with you about whether he’d be offended or not.

But I think your comment brings up an interesting thought.

Do you have a concept of the Numinous? That is, of something so incredibly holy it leaves you speechless? Of an entity that is so wondrous that when you approach it you must “remove your sandals”, to use a primitive idiom?

Sorry, I don’t get your question.

User124, if you believe in Satan and his fallen angels, then you must believe in God, too!
I really thought you were an atheist, unless you’re one of the fallen angels who still believes
in God but denies/rejects Him at the same time.

And I noticed you capitalized God twice! Maybe I’m actually getting somewhere with you.

I know you’re not Richard Dawkins, there couldn’t be more than one of that guy on this earth,
but I do have the impression that you are an atheist. If I’m wrong, tell me.

See ThinkingSapien’s answer about “g” and “G”.

No, I don’t believe in Satan or fallen angels, I only mentioned them to make the difference between rejection and disbelief more clear to you.

(Following your faith), Satan, fallen angels, Satanists, Sinners and Maltheists believe in God(s) and reject him(them).

Atheists: Don’t believe in a god.

 

[User124]

I’m not going to argue with you about whether he’d be offended or not.

But I think your comment brings up an interesting thought.

Do you have a concept of the Numinous? That is, of something so incredibly holy it leaves you speechless? Of an entity that is so wondrous that when you approach it you must “remove your sandals”, to use a primitive idiom?

Sorry, I don’t get your question.

User124, if you believe in Satan and his fallen angels, then you must believe in God, too!
I really thought you were an atheist, unless you’re one of the fallen angels who still believes
in God but denies/rejects Him at the same time.

And I noticed you capitalized God twice! Maybe I’m actually getting somewhere with you.

I know you’re not Richard Dawkins, there couldn’t be more than one of that guy on this earth,
but I do have the impression that you are an atheist. If I’m wrong, tell me.

See ThinkingSapien’s answer about “g” and “G”.

No, I don’t believe in Satan or fallen angels, I only mentioned them to make the difference between rejection and disbelief more clear to you.

(Following your faith), Satan, fallen angels, Satanists, Sinners and Maltheists believe in God(s) and reject him(them).

Atheists: Don’t believe in a god.

Now you might ask, if atheists don’t believe in any god, why they spend their times “attacking” god(s).
The answer is simple: Religion plays a big role in everything, atheists may criticize the characters of gods in Holy books and people’s conviction of what these gods are and what they demands from humans and how much influences may these beliefs cause.

 

[Mystic3]

I have six arguments:

The statements of the enlightened. They see God as light in the world in the form of love, peace, and happiness. God is a term for the perception of the enlightened. Every real religion establishes itself around an enlightened master. Every real religion has a word for God, (Tao, Nirvana, Brahman, Allah, Yahwe). Jesus saw God, lived in God and is a witnesses for God.

The near death research refers to the independence of the soul from the body and the continued existence of the soul after death. Wikipedia supports my view on these things. At the same time, Wikipedia also brings up the arguments of the opposition. Everyone can read the discussion there. The most important witness is Pam Reynolds. She has seen the light of God in the afterlife, and learned that there is a paradise area. She has also demonstrated that her otherworldly experience was real. She heard the doctors during her out-of-body experience and could reproduce exactly the conversation later on. The gauges showed during her out-of-body experience that her brain could not think. There were no brain waves. And yet she has heard the conversation. Pam Reynolds could have heard the conversation of the doctors only with her soul. Her ears were stoppered while the operation.

Physics refers to the existence of a higher cosmic information field (Amit Goswami, God as higher consciousness). The string theory supports this point of view. According to some quantum physicists (Hans-Peter Dürr, Amit Goswami, Michael König), there is behind the material world a hyperspace that can be regarded as an afterlife or a heaven. Basis of this assumption is the proved (verified) phenomenon of quantum entanglement. If two entangled (by contact “mentally” connected) photons (light particles) can communicate over a large spatial distance much faster than light (immediately), there must be a higher dimension (a hyper-space) through which this is possible. Because the special theory of relativity from Einstein shows that signals spread out in the traditional dimensions of space can do this not faster than light speed. Professor Dürr: “Basically, there is no such thing as material. Primarily, there exists only connections to material foundation. We could therefore call it consciousness material. Energy appears only as coagulated secondarily, solidified spirit. (… ) Many discoveries of quantum physics are not only immaterial, but that is a work in completely different ways that have nothing to do with the standard three-dimensional spatial sense we have. It is a pure information field, a sort of quantum code. It has nothing to do with mass and energy. This information field spans the entire universe. The cosmos is whole information because this field has no limit. There is only one, but this one united entity is differentiated.”(P.M. Magazin 05/2007)

Parapsychology researches spiritual abilities such as thought transfer, the ability to see into the future, and to perceive and sense over large distances. This field has collected many cases of aforementioned topics.

Scientific happiness research has proven the context between enlightenment, peace, happiness, and love. They have recognized the principles which lead to a happy life. They have researched Matthieu Ricard as an enlightened person.

I live as a hermit. I have been in various states of enlightenment. I have seen God as light in the world, and as happiness, love, peace, and truth in myself. I maintain that enlightenment and God exist. I maintain that it is better and happier to be enlightened than unenlightened. I maintain that it is good to live in God.

 

[JDaniel]

Now you might ask, if atheists don’t believe in any god, why they spend their times “attacking” god(s). The answer is simple: Religion plays a big role in everything, atheists may criticize the characters of gods in Holy books and people’s conviction of what these gods are and what they demands from humans and how much influences may these beliefs cause.

Why? Your reply really makes little point. What demands do theists make on atheists? What sorts of demands aren’t in keeping with the normal demands of respectful people exercising respect?

Or, maybe the theist demands not to be tortured like the Nuns, Priests and Bishops were - for years, until about 22 years ago - in the terrible prisons of Romania, by the atheist Communists? Perhaps those demands are just too great? Who are we to demand that atheist Communists treat Catholic clergy with human respect? Do you have any idea what was done to Catholic clergy - in the name of atheism - in places like Jilava Prison, about a half and hour’s drive from Bucharest? Are those the kinds of demands you’re referring to?

God bless,
jd

 

[User124]

Why? Your reply really makes little point. What demands do theists make on atheists? What sorts of demands aren’t in keeping with the normal demands of respectful people exercising respect?

Or, maybe the theist demands not to be tortured like the Nuns, Priests and Bishops were - for years, until about 22 years ago - in the terrible prisons of Romania, by the atheist Communists? Perhaps those demands are just too great? Who are we to demand that atheist Communists treat Catholic clergy with human respect? Do you have any idea what was done to Catholic clergy - in the name of atheism - in places like Jilava Prison, about a half and hour’s drive from Bucharest? Are those the kinds of demands you’re referring to?

God bless,
jd

My first demand would be personal in relation with your post, to not be treated as a person who supports or agrees with “Nuns killings” or other form of violence simply because I’m an atheist.

If it happens to be a political system who kill, torture, discriminate or persecute others, I would stand against it, in my previous posts I pointed how atheism is different to Communisn.

 

[JDaniel]

My first demand would be personal in relation with your post, to not be treated as a person who supports or agrees with “Nuns killings” or other form of violence simply because I’m an atheist.

If it happens to be a political system who kill, torture, discriminate or persecute others, I would stand against it, in my previous posts I pointed how atheism is different to Communisn.

User:

Great. That’s what I thought. Thank you!

But . . . the problem is, in the atheistic-Communists’ ardent attempt to rid the world of theists, they were able to do so by not having to adhere to any religiosity, any apparent morality, or any common decency. Now, I could be wrong - and you are probably not the norm of Atheists - but it doesn’t take any stretch at all to comprehend a relation between “Atheism” and the most brutal and deadly exterminations the world has ever seen. Why do you think that is?

God bless,
jd

 

[User124]

User:

Great. That’s what I thought. Thank you!

But . . . the problem is, in the atheistic-Communists’ ardent attempt to rid the world of theists, they were able to do so by not having to adhere to any religiosity, any apparent morality, or any common decency. Now, I could be wrong - and you are probably not the norm of Atheists - but it doesn’t take any stretch at all to comprehend a relation between “Atheism” and the most brutal and deadly exterminations the world has ever seen. Why do you think that is?

God bless,
jd

Atheism is only a disbelief in a god, it’s not an invitation to do brutal things, wherever you go you’ll find people doing good things and others doing bad things, why relating doing brutal things to atheism? There is absolutely no logical reason for such a claim because there is as well a lot of religious people, systems and authorities who did terrible things in history, and most of their terrible and brutal actions were inspired by verses from their holy books. (doing God’s will, even till now).

Do you see any holy book in atheism asking people to do violent and brutal acts?

Simply doing good or bad has nothing to do with atheism (non theism), it has to do with atheists themselves.

 

[User124]

User:

Great. That’s what I thought. Thank you!

But . . . the problem is, in the atheistic-Communists’ ardent attempt to rid the world of theists, they were able to do so by not having to adhere to any religiosity, any apparent morality, or any common decency. Now, I could be wrong - and you are probably not the norm of Atheists - but it doesn’t take any stretch at all to comprehend a relation between “Atheism” and the most brutal and deadly exterminations the world has ever seen. Why do you think that is?

God bless,
jd

Atheism is only a disbelief in a god, it’s not an invitation to do brutal things, wherever you go you’ll find people doing good things and others doing bad things, why relating doing brutal things to atheism? There is absolutely no logical reason for such a claim because there is as well a lot of religious people, systems and authorities who did terrible things in history, and most of their terrible and brutal actions were inspired by verses from their holy books. (doing God’s will, even till now).

Doing good or bad has nothing to do with atheism (non theism), it has to do with atheists themselves.

 

[SirWillliam]

I have to agree with you on this one, User124. Joan of Arc was burnt at the stake in 1431
because she broke an obscure law in the Old Testament that forbade as sinful women
wearing men’s clothing. Of course, she had been tricked into wearing men’s clothes because
her English jailors had attempted to rape her, and she simply put on men’s clothes to
protect herself from being molested. Of course, Joan’s execution had much more to do
with English politics at the time than Church Law. They hated Joan because she had badly
beaten them in battle and set up a mock trial with clergy partial to their (the English) agenda,
and they wanted her dead at any cost.

I have two brothers and my only son who are atheists, and all of them are far from being violent killers.

They just want proof of God, like you do, and so far I haven’t been able to convince them.
But they are being sincere, nevertheless.

 

[JDaniel]

Atheism is only a disbelief in a god, it’s not an invitation to do brutal things, wherever you go you’ll find people doing good things and others doing bad things, why relating doing brutal things to atheism?

User124:

That is very naive in my opinion. Anyone can look up mass exterminations, ethnic cleansings or genocides on the internet. It appears that countless millions have been subject to them precisely at the hands and wills of non-theists. I looked hard to find where theists had done the same things. Couldn’t find any.

There is absolutely no logical reason for such a claim because there is as well a lot of religious people, systems and authorities who did terrible things in history, and most of their terrible and brutal actions were inspired by verses from their holy books. (doing God’s will, even till now).

This is what we call a “naked assertion.” You have asserted something for which you offer no example, no backup source, no documentation, no proof. Here is mine.

Doing good or bad has nothing to do with atheism (non theism), it has to do with atheists themselves.

I robustly disagree.

God bless,
jd

 

[dedo]

If God exists, then it is perfectly reasonable to expect that political ideologies that reject God, and embrace atheism would be prone to do bad things.

However, historical evidence shows that religious are not immune to doing bad things either. The Bible warns of this. We must constantly be on guard individually and collectively to avoid being corrupted. Also, life is about constantly growing.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect that people who reject God are going to miss some of what He wants to teach them, even though their conscience may still be functioning.

Yes, atheism does not automatically change someone into a fiend. However, there are theological reasons for this. Why would the devil spend time tempting someone who has rejected God when that is the devil’s ultimate goal? If the devil were to drive every person who rejects God to the gutter or jail, then the person might repent and be converted.

My parents did many wonderful things for me. However, the most important was to take me to Mass and get me through my early Sacraments. I think the best thing you can do for relatives who dabble in atheism is to pray for them. Many atheists have been saved by the prayers and sacrifices of another.

 

[ReapReason]

So, an atheist came up to me the other and demanded that I show the Atheist proof of God’s existence. I told him that the efforts of cause and effect were relevant to the circumstances that require the necessity of a being that would will something from nothing. Yet the atheist states,“This is not proof.”

I’m sure this doesn’t belong here, I’ll be content to know where it does so that I can post these sorts of questions there.

I simply didn’t know what more to say.

Can someone help me? I just don’t know what to say. And I would rather deal with this now before it causes me unnecessary apprehension.

-Karl

Is that all he said “this is not proof”?

He would be a good comedian.

 

[ReapReason]

In one of his talks, Fr. Larry Richards says his proof is that he spends time with God and knows Him. That might not convince an atheist but it sounds good to me.

I’m a “Theist”, and it doesn’t convince me.

 

[ReapReason]

You could read up on miracles, especially ones that have been examined by scientists that haven’t been able to explain it in any other ways (eucharistic miracles, stigmata, cloak of Juan Diego, etc.) However, their idea of “proof” might not be reasonable or possible. If that’s the case, it is their fault, not yours or God’s.

And while your at it have him read up on miracles reported by other religions.

 

[ReapReason]

Also, ask the atheist if he has proof of his own existence.

“I think therefore I am.” The Atheist has absolute certainty of his own existence.

You can’t be serious.

 

[ReapReason]

If there was real undeniable proof of God religion would be based on science and not faith. For something to require faith, the proof cannot be there.

Undeniable proof of God can only be achieved through Metaphysics. Scientific theories, while it is always rational to accept them, they do not provide certain knowledge; there is always the possibility of error, which one would know if they studied the underlying epistemological principles of Science. Also, Science is the study of physical relationships and physical natures; while Metaphysics is the study of reality as an act, in its most general sense.

 

[ReapReason]

If there were to be undeniable proof of his existance then we would have no choice and the relationship would be forced upon us.

That is a fallacy. Explain why that would be the case.