Demanding proof of God

[User124]

User124:

That is very naive in my opinion. Anyone can look up mass exterminations, ethnic cleansings or genocides on the internet. It appears that countless millions have been subject to them precisely at the hands and wills of non-theists. I looked hard to find where theists had done the same things. Couldn’t find any.

I’m surprised how you easily ignored the injustices, brutal actions, wars, violence, terrorism and cruelties done by religious people, systems and authorities because of their religious convictions and to do the will of their gods in history till the present times, there is countless historical events I can mention, but I picked two random ones out of many:

1- The persecution of Christians by Romans(theists): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

2- Black death persecutions: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death#Persecutions

This is what we call a “naked assertion.” You have asserted something for which you offer no example, no backup source, no documentation, no proof. Here is mine.

I robustly disagree.

God bless,
jd

You didn’t explain why it’s a “naked assertion”, so you’re saying that atheism turn people into evil monsters?

I have to agree with you on this one, User124. Joan of Arc was burnt at the stake in 1431 because she broke an obscure law in the Old Testament that forbade as sinful women
wearing men’s clothing. Of course, she had been tricked into wearing men’s clothes because
her English jailors had attempted to rape her, and she simply put on men’s clothes to
protect herself from being molested. Of course, Joan’s execution had much more to do
with English politics at the time than Church Law. They hated Joan because she had badly
beaten them in battle and set up a mock trial with clergy partial to their (the English) agenda,
and they wanted her dead at any cost.

I have two brothers and my only son who are atheists, and all of them are far from being violent killers.

They just want proof of God, like you do, and so far I haven’t been able to convince them.
But they are being sincere, nevertheless.

Christians used to be called atheists in the times of Romans, I see many people don’t understand the meaning of an atheist, and I think many have an Atheophobia as well.

 

[pete_29]

“I think therefore I am.” The Atheist has absolute certainty of his own existence.

You can’t be serious.

Prove to me that you exist.

 

[pete_29]

That is a fallacy. Explain why that would be the case.

If God could be proven, how could you not believe that He exists? Your answer makes no sense.

 

[User124]

Prove to me that you exist.

This is illogical and irrelevant to our subject.

Perhaps you could give that person your facebook link, open cams, fix some meetings etc…

 

[JDaniel]

I’m surprised how you easily ignored the injustices, brutal actions, wars, violence, terrorism and cruelties done by religious people, systems and authorities because of their religious convictions and to do the will of their gods in history till the present times, there is countless historical events I can mention, but I picked two random ones out of many:

1- The persecution of Christians by Romans(theists): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

2- Black death persecutions: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death#Persecutions

User:

Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? Do you bother to read the stuff you post? How old are you? I’d suggest that you go back and read these so-called documentations you’ve posted as links. Really read them. Or, you’re just fooling around. If it’s the latter, you’ve done a pretty good job! You had me going?

Christians used to be called atheists in the times of Romans, I see many people don’t understand the meaning of an atheist, and I think many have an Atheophobia as well.

There’s a reason for that. The Romans thought there were all kinds of gods. The Romans were not Theists, they were polytheists. library.thinkquest.org/28111/newpage1.htm

You’re toying with me, right? Anyway, I like you. You are very respectful.

God bless,
jd

 

[cessnawag]

Tell him to prove that he loves his children. You can’t “prove” love. God is love. Love can be shown through actions but not proven.

 

[empther]

The impossibility of an infinite past proves there is a God, because the universe began, couldn’t have started itself and needed a God to get it started.

Of course, the atheist will find all kinds of arguments against this.

 

[User124]

User:

Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? Do you bother to read the stuff you post? How old are you? I’d suggest that you go back and read these so-called documentations you’ve posted as links. Really read them. Or, you’re just fooling around. If it’s the latter, you’ve done a pretty good job! You had me going?

There’s a reason for that. The Romans thought there were all kinds of gods. The Romans were not Theists, they were polytheists. library.thinkquest.org/28111/newpage1.htm

You’re toying with me, right? Anyway, I like you. You are very respectful.

God bless,
jd

It’s easy for you to mock what I said without even explaining it.

I’m not toying you, if was toying you, I would say theists are angels! And not even a small fight was ever done based on religious convictions! But that would be a lie, not a fact.

Explain the two links I posted and please for the love of your god, stop playing around.
I only gave you two events, if I wanted to list all the cruelties of theistic and religious events, wow this thread would be over 100 pages!

PS: I’m not saying religious people are bad, it depends on the person.

It’s not even logical to claim that no single fight was ever done in the name of religion!
Don’t you watch TV, read the newspapers?

You didn’t answer my question, about relating atheism to being an evil monster, and giving convincing arguments, you just insulted me and then said “I like you, you are very respectful”.

 

[ReapReason]

Prove to me that you exist.

I can only know with absolute certainty that I exist and God exists. I cannot prove to you that I am real; however it is nevertheless more reasonable to accept that I am real based on your sensory experience of me rather than to assume that I am not real, and this is because you have no rational reason or experience that would suggest that I am not real. We accept the existence of other beings because we have vivid immediate experiences of them and have no valid reason to suspect a farce or an illusion.

That which is in our immediate experience doesn’t require proof unless we our given good reason to think otherwise.

 

[ReapReason]

If God could be proven, how could you not believe that He exists? Your answer makes no sense.

I don’t understand your point? What has that got to do with your freedom to love or reject God?

 

[SirWillliam]

Christians used to be called atheists in the times of Romans, I see many people don’t understand the meaning of an atheist, and I think many have an Atheophobia as well.

User124, I quote in this thread quite a while back the story of Bernadette of Lourdes as
being fairly recent proof that God exists. I’ll repeat it since I"m not computer savvy enough
to copy it here. I don’t think you noticed it.

The real miracle of Lourdes was Bernadette’s identification of the beautiful lady she was seeing as
The Immaculate Conception. Being an uneducated peasant girl, Bernadette had
no idea what these words meant. She had to repeat them over and over again returning
from the Grotte De Massabielle to her pastor, so that she wouldn’t forget them.

SInce Bernadette couldn’t possibly have made up the words, Immaculate Conception,
herself (a theologian said that it would have been beyond her abilities), she could only
have gotten them from the Virgin Mary, herself.

Bernadette had asked the lady many times to reveal her name, and finally, on the 16th
apparition of Mar. 25th, 1858, Mary said to her in the local dialect, “Que soy era Immaculada Councepciou.”

The official investigation into Bernadette’s apparitions learned that neither her father,
mother, nor even the very intelligent aunt who was the real head of her family, knew
anything about the Immaculate Conception, and that it was not taught in her school.

If the Virgin Mary exists, then Jesus exists, and if Jesus exists, then God exists.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

So, an atheist came up to me the other and demanded that I show the Atheist proof of God’s existence. I told him that the efforts of cause and effect were relevant to the circumstances that require the necessity of a being that would will something from nothing. Yet the atheist states,“This is not proof.”

I’m sure this doesn’t belong here, I’ll be content to know where it does so that I can post these sorts of questions there.

I simply didn’t know what more to say.

Can someone help me? I just don’t know what to say. And I would rather deal with this now before it causes me unnecessary apprehension.

-Karl

You have been given lots of good advice. Take it.

:banghead:

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I am still breathing is proof enough of God.

I think the challenge is in impressing upon some one else the ability to make the connection between that fact (“I am still breathing”) and the conclusion (“God exists”). I don’t think that 100% confidence in most conclusions can be achieved; but in many cases a convincing conclusion can be reached.

As a somewhat abstract example, a person that specializes in some area of forensics may be able to see a few obscure pieces of data and come to some conclusion. She is still capable of making incorrect conclusions but in general is in a better position to make conclusions about such things. But to a lay person the data may not be convincing. Though the lay person could possibly be convinced after a serious of conversations (information exchange). It may not be the type of thing that becomes convincing after one conversation. So it’s a personal decision on whether you wish to make the time investment or walk away.

 

[joe370]

So, an atheist came up to me the other and demanded that I show the Atheist proof of God’s existence. I told him that the efforts of cause and effect were relevant to the circumstances that require the necessity of a being that would will something from nothing. Yet the atheist states,“This is not proof.”

I’m sure this doesn’t belong here, I’ll be content to know where it does so that I can post these sorts of questions there.

I simply didn’t know what more to say.

Can someone help me? I just don’t know what to say. And I would rather deal with this now before it causes me unnecessary apprehension.

-Karl

Empirical proof that God exists? None. Perhaps you should demand that he show you the empirical proof that God does not exist? It takes considerably more faith to be an atheist.

As I mentioned to another CAF friend, verbatim:

Would it be safe to say that it requires faith to believe the experts (atheists in the field) regarding the origin of the universe and the idea that the largest known thing (the materiel universe, which is infinite from a human perspective) - needs no designer/maker?

As a former non-believer, the idea of an all-powerful designer that precedes time and space and is the designer and maker of time and space is vastly more tenable than time and space simply stemming from nothing. The first scenario I can at least wrap my brain around; the second gives me a headache if I think about it for any extended period of time. LOL…

 

[joe370]

You could read up on miracles, especially ones that have been examined by scientists that haven’t been able to explain it in any other ways (eucharistic miracles, stigmata, cloak of Juan Diego, etc.) However, their idea of “proof” might not be reasonable or possible. If that’s the case, it is their fault, not yours or God’s.

Very good point. :thumbsup:Initially I had mentioned that there is no empirical proof. Scratch that; Fatima is absolutely verifiable and empirical proof of God’s existence.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

The impossibility of an infinite past proves there is a God, because the universe began, couldn’t have started itself and needed a God to get it started.

Of course, the atheist will find all kinds of arguments against this.

If there are arguments against this, and you acknowledge them, why do you still bring it up as a legitimate argument?

I’d bring them to you now but I’m tired and it would actually take a lot of Googling and copy and pasting, and I’m not really up to such a task.

 

[joe370]

Ask the atheist, “What kind of proof?”

Also, ask the atheist if he has proof of his own existence.

He or she would simply say: I can see myself; I cannot see God, therefore I do not believe in God. True axiom among believers:

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.”

 

[Regular_Atheist]

He or she would simply say: I can see myself; I cannot see God, therefore I do not believe in God. True axiom among believers:

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.”

I feel that you’re just admitting that there is no reason to believe in a god, though, by stating such a thing.

 

[joe370]

If there was real undeniable proof of God religion would be based on science and not faith. For something to require faith, the proof cannot be there.

 

[joe370]

Proof of God is all around us. The beauty and the magnificence of the world that we live in is the work of a Supreme creator. All one has to do is be open to His world.

DGB

In my experience, atheists will simply counter that with the fact that there is just the opposite all around us, and then ask: why would a loving God allow it?