Demanding proof of God

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Not at all. The analogy is that the turd is an analog to the universe.
The dog is the analog to God.

One has to have an explanation for a turd. Not for a dog that creates the turd, (from the flea’s perspective, of course.)
Already the atheist flea, for sake of the argument pretended that the dog exists ( stills alive, not dead), the next typical question would be who made that dog?

Note that the dog, the creator of the dog, the upper creators etc are not shown in the scene yet, only the turd is there.
 
That is avoiding this very, very obvious fact: it’s a very, very stupid flea that would say, “Well, this turd just randomly appeared from a conglomeration of nitrogen, hydrogen and sulphur et al”.

Yes? Are we agreed on that?
Well, I prefer not to use the word “stupid.” It’s a personal preference. I’ve seen it used too frequently in ugly and malicious ways so the word is “tainted” to me.

But word preferences aside how I look at that claim is going to depend on what I can find out of the fleas intended meaning. In conversations like this the definitions of key words and phrases (ex: Random, nothing, chance, so on) tends to not align with how a “typical” person would use them. Assuming that the flea is using the common meanings then I’d find the stance to be dubious unless it were accompanied by some acknowledgement of some amount of uncertainty.

Going back to something you said earlier
Would it be more acceptable to you if the theist flea says Someone did it?
I would find that to be a reasonable conclusion because I’ve already got knowledge of where excrement comes from. But I’m going to go out on a limb and say something for which I expect to receive almost unanimous disagreement. If the flea has no prior knowledge about excrement or dogs then I would say that the flea would be making this statement without anything to back it up. The assertion would be correct but not yet justified.

That’s not an uncommon occurrence. Often time legal actions start off with what may be speculation and that speculation may motivate further investigation. Some times the investigation results in corroboration of the speculation. Some times it the speculation is found to be false. And some times there’s not sufficient information available to corroborate the speculation or to show it as false.

So I take issue with either flea making positive (confident) assertions on the origins of the excrement without something to corroborate it.
 
If you look at it objectively it just seems awfully flimsy.
It is in that where I have found one of the greatest strengths of Catholicism.

It does appear flimsy.

Yet it has stood through 2000 years.
For millinia now we have had persecution both open and subtle.
We have had great leaders and the worst vilainy.

And yet through it all…the church stands.
 
Right, Catholicism is a positive claim, which needs more proofs and evidences to accept it than the lack of belief ( atheism ).
Unless our atheist has suddenly turned agnostic, then are not the atheists making a positive assertion that there is no God?
 
Unless our atheist has suddenly turned agnostic, then are not the atheists making a positive assertion that there is no God?
I’m an agnostic atheist, I don’t know what other atheists may claim, but most of atheists I’ve talked to, were agnostic atheists.

Disbelief is not a claim, which is in no need to be proved.

As a person I claim to have evidences and facts against religions and their gods, and not theism.
 
I’m an agnostic atheist, I don’t know what other atheists may claim, but most of atheists I’ve talked to, were agnostic atheists.

Disbelief is not a claim, which is in no need to be proved.

As a person I claim to have evidences and facts against religions and their gods, and not theism.
So you disbelieve because you do not see sufficient evidence?
 
So you disbelieve because you do not see sufficient evidence?
I don’t believe because I don’t see enough evidences, and because I see evidences against religions and particular gods. Why?
 
I’m an agnostic atheist, I don’t know what other atheists may claim, but most of atheists I’ve talked to, were agnostic atheists.
I am too.

Most atheists I’ve spoken to were agnostic atheist. Though I’ve also come across a strong agnostic.
 
I don’t believe because I don’t see enough evidences, and because I see evidences against religions and particular gods. Why?
Just curious.
What exactly would you consider sufficient evidence for God as is known through the Catholic Church?
 
I am too.

Most atheists I’ve spoken to were agnostic atheist. Though I’ve also come across a strong agnostic.
An atheist who claims that there is no god must know more about the universe and have evidences to be certain that a god doesn’t exist.
 
Just curious.
What exactly would you consider sufficient evidence for God as is known through the Catholic Church?
Any… I’m now doing some researchs about miracles, I don’t believe in Catholicism for many reasons… but why not looking? Maybe there could be some truth in these mystics.
 
An atheist who claims that there is no god must know more about the universe and have evidences to be certain that a god doesn’t exist.
Yeah, I know. I never bothered to to get into that discussion with her as I was giving more attention to the bowling game that was in progress.
 
And do you concede that it’s absolutely untenable for an atheist flea to proclaim, “Well, it was just a bunch of random nitrogen and hydrogen particles that happened to come together!”
Just wondering, User, if you could at least acknowledge the sense in my conclusion above.

Yes, or no?
 
Already the atheist flea, for sake of the argument pretended that the dog exists ( stills alive, not dead), the next typical question would be who made that dog?
Fair enough. That would be another analogy that we could discuss.

But we’ve got to first deal with Regular Atheist’s claim that the better analogy is that of fleas sitting on a turd.

So we just have to establish that it’s a very, very nonsensical atheist flea who’s going to conclude that the turd just randomly was created by floating nitrogen and hydrogen et al particles.

Yes?
 
Well, I prefer not to use the word “stupid.” It’s a personal preference. I’ve seen it used too frequently in ugly and malicious ways so the word is “tainted” to me.
Fair enough.

Nonsensical? Absurd? Not thinking very clearly?

I will consider using whatever word you prefer to use to describe this atheist flea who would conclude that the turd randomly appeared.

What say you?
 
Going back to something you said earlier I would find that to be a reasonable conclusion because I’ve already got knowledge of where excrement comes from. But I’m going to go out on a limb and say something for which I expect to receive almost unanimous disagreement. If the flea has no prior knowledge about excrement or dogs then I would say that the flea would be making this statement without anything to back it up. The assertion would be correct but not yet justified.
Then you’re going to have to take this up with your fellow atheist, Regular Atheist, to whom this analogy belongs.

The point is quite clear: it is a very, very untenable position to make a claim that nitrogen and hydrogen particles just happened to come together to form a turd.
 
“I think therefore I am.” The Atheist has absolute certainty of his own existence.

You can’t be serious.
Ah, so knowing with absolute certainty is possible?

Or is it?

I am sure you are aware of William’s and Kierkegaard’s critiques of Descartes’s argument.

Gloomy old Oswald Spengler (of all people) makes an interesting observation in this regard:

"Expression-language before witnesses merely proves the presence of an “I,” but communication-language postulates a “thou.”

The “I” is that which speaks, and the “thou” that which is meant to understand the speech of the “I.” For primitives a tree, a stone, or a cloud can be a " thou." Every deity is a “thou”.

In fairy-tales there is nothing that cannot hold converse with men, and we need only look at our own selves in moments of furious irritation or of poetic excitement to realize that anything can become a “thou” for us even to-day.

And it is by some “thou” that we first came to the knowledge of an “I.” “I,” therefore, is a designation for the fact that a bridge exists to some other being.”

Thankfully, The Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Faith has made it clear that, “There is one true and living God, creator and lord of heaven and earth”, and that “this one true God, by his goodness and almighty power…brought into being from nothing the twofold created order, that is the spiritual and the bodily, the angelic and the earthly, and thereafter the human which is, in a way, common to both since it is composed of spirit and body.” Morever, this God could "be known with certainty from the consideration of created things, by the natural power of human reason."

And as I have written in a previous thread:

This whole conflict between Christianity and Modern Science (Materialism) goes back to the ancient rival cosmological arguments of Epicurus and Aquinas. Everything depends on whether the things of nature are or are not eternal. If they are, Epicurus is right, and nature is self-contained, having no need of a divine source; if they are not, Aquinas is right, and nature is contingent, existing in a state of dependence on the source of its existence, a source outside of nature. The beauty of Aquinas’s argument from contigency, is that it is not based on revelation. It is not a scriptural argument. The Bible is never mentioned. It depends entirely on natural reason. And Aquinas’s argument actually has science on its side; indeed, since the advent of Big-Bang cosmology last century, it appears that the great weight of physical evidence points to the contingency of the universe. Sometimes it takes years for the scientific community to catch up with the knowledge of the Church. We’ve been saying the universe began in an instant from the beginning. Science figured this out and made it “orthodoxy” only rather recently (having been forced to abandon the most spectacularly wrong consensus in the history of science). We’ve said all people were equal, while science was toying with phrenology and eugenics. Eventually they got it and got up to speed.

Ironically, there is actually no actual direct evidence supporting the Epicurus’s “eternal atom” or the “grand unification theory” as it would be called today. In fact, none of the arguments in favor of Materialism is based on direct evidence, whereas all of the arguments in favor of an intelligent Designer are in fact based on empirical evidence that we can see and measure. When one sees design (the purposeful arrangement of parts) in Nature, it is only reasonable to conclude the presence of a Designer. Modern science (Materialism) was designed to exclude the Designer. Science, for the materialist, is not about truth-seeking. It is a about therapy, about achieving “ataraxia” (“freedom from disturbance” as Epicurus put it) from the fear of hell and the guilt of sin and the demands of the gods. Materialists are convinced a priori, by argument (rather than by evidence) that God does not exist. Unless blinded by devotion to materialism, a reasonable person could infer that the existence of a creative Intelligence as the cause of the fine-tuned universe is far less miraculous than the workings of Blind Chance. Ironically, there is nothing more likely to lead to the ultimate collapse of Materialism *than *the advance of science. Non-materialist arguments are viable alternatives as long as they explain the visible phenomena equally well or better. Thankfully, nature is independent of any scientific hypothesis defining scientific inquiry; Nature has the last say.

Now, as to the question of the identity of the Designer. The evidence is very strong that Christ was exactly who He claimed to be. Even prominent atheists like British skeptic Albert Henry Ross, who originally set out to disprove the “myth” of the Resurrection, ended up being forced to admit that all the alternatives to the historical reality of the Resurrection (conspiracy, hoax, lies, hallucinations, myth, etc.) ended up being even less credible than the even they sought to discredit. The evidence exists. You are not FORCED to accept it. Even Richard Dawkins, in his debate with John Lennox at the Oxford Museum of Natural History, was forced to concede that the Gospel accounts are reliable historical accounts.

Atheists (I prefer “Materialists” or “Anti-Theists”) have a very good case for the non-existence of a cosmic genie, but very weak one for the non-existence of the Creator. Most educated Anti-Theists that I have run into do in fact know that the one, true God exists. It is not so much that they deny His existence but rather they hate Him for their own painful, suffering existence (which is usually the result of their sinful lifestyles). Their materialism functions for them exactly has it has functioned since the time of Epicurus - as a form of therapy.
 
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