Democrat Rep: ending taxpayer abortion funding an imposition of ‘religious beliefs’

  • Thread starter Thread starter 1holycatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
irishpatrick said:
Excellent and precisely to my point. This issue no needs to be argued from religion or faith, there is ample science. I have no doubt that had today’s medical science existed in 1973, abortion would never have been made legal–it would have been shockingly easy to prove when human life begins.

Frankly, it seems to me that people who still try to argue about when life begins are being intellectually dishonest. They would be better served to say that the new human life does not hold any value, because that is what they really believe in most cases.
Click to expand...
One of the citations is from 1968. It’s not as though this is new knowledge.

Those that demand scientific evidence and also favor abortion will not hesitate to throw science under the bus when it doesn’t agree with their worldview.
 
1holycatholic said:
On what objective truth would an atheist base a system of morality?
Click to expand...
Good Question! 🙂

In debates, definition is key.
The term “morality” can be used either:
Click to expand...
1: descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,
a: some other group, such as a religion, or
b: accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
2: normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.
Click to expand...
plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

Example: I have not had to have Catholic Teaching - To Know - Cruelty to animals is bad.
Example here falls under 1 and …1- b: …and 2:: above ]…

And because it fails under those above — would also include 1-a: The group being “rational persons” in this instance…BUT also would align to Catholic Teachings ].
 
kimmielittle said:
Good Question! 🙂

In debates, definition is key.

plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

Example: I have not had to have Catholic Teaching - To Know - Cruelty to animals is bad.
Example here falls under 1 and …1- b: … 2:…and 3: above ]…

And because it fails under those above — would also include 1-a: The group being “rational persons” in this instance…BUT also would align to Catholic Teachings ].
Click to expand...
You haven’t answered the question.🤷 On what objective truth would an atheist base a system of morality?
 
1holycatholic said:
One of the citations is from 1968. It’s not as though this is new knowledge.

Those that demand scientific evidence and also favor abortion will not hesitate to throw science under the bus when it doesn’t agree with their worldview.
Click to expand...
When science disagree’s with their worldview, they, ironically, turn to religion.

REP. PELOSI: I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator–St. Augustine said at three months. We don’t know. And so I don’t think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins. As I say, the Catholic Church for centuries has been discussing this, and there are those who’ve decided…[snip] So again, over the history of the church, this is an issue of controversy.

Here is what St. Augustine said:

“Augustine condemns vigorously the whole spectrum of acts from birth prevention…through infanticide. He sees all of them as a continuum of acts motivated by a desire for sexual gratification without a commitment to the procreation of new life….Moreover…Augustine believed that even more than human life was at stake when abortion is committed. Man inseminates and woman conceives, ‘but that a fetus is conceived and born is a divine work, not a human one’ (Contra Julianum, V, 34).”

But lets predate Augustine of Hippo and look to the Apostles themselves in the Didache:

The second commandment of the Teaching: “Do not murder; do not commit adultery”; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; “do not steal”; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. “Do not covet your neighbor’s property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness”; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is “a deadly snare.” Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion at any stage is murder.
 
1holycatholic said:
You haven’t answered the question.🤷 On what objective truth would an atheist base a system of morality?
Click to expand...
I most certainly did…🤷🤷:

“Their” objective truth.

b: accepted by an individual for her own behavior.
 
kimmielittle said:
Then ALL Atheists lie - about ALL things? 🤷
Click to expand...
I don’t think they lie. A lie connotes the direct and intentional telling of a non-truth. I think that atheists perceive certain things to be objectively true and speak from that paradigm. However, it doesn’t stop them from changing their story once the “facts” change, or their perception of the facts change. So, they aren’t lying when they start telling different stories, they are “finessing their position”.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
I don’t think they lie. A lie connotes the direct and intentional telling of a non-truth. I think that atheists perceive certain things to be objectively true and speak from that paradigm. However, it doesn’t stop them from changing their story once the “facts” change, or their perception of the facts change. So, they aren’t lying when they start telling different stories, they are “finessing their position”.
Click to expand...
I understand what you mean: 🙂

However, your logic is flawed.

Is this Objective truth to an Atheist?
“… because life is all there is and all that matters, and
abortion destroys the life of an innocent human being.”
Click to expand...
godlessprolifers.org/home.html

Would this be an objective Truth?
"insist that a human life has intrinsic value, "
Click to expand...
newsweek.com/2008/11/28/no-god-and-no-abortions.html
 
1holycatholic said:
That’s not objective truth. You are describing moral relativism.
Click to expand...
My point is, as in my example.] “Their” objective truth Morality eg cruelty to animals is bad ] also fulfills all other definitions of morality - including Catholic.
Example: I have not had to have Catholic Teaching - To Know - Cruelty to animals is bad.
Example here falls under 1 and …1- b: …and 2:. above ]…
Click to expand...
And because it fails under those above — would also include 1-a: The group being “rational persons” in this instance…BUT also would align to Catholic Teachings ].
Click to expand...
.

FACT: Morality, can / does exist outside of the Church / Religious belief.
 
kimmielittle said:
My point is, as in my example.] “Their” objective truth Morality eg cruelty to animals is bad ] also fulfills all other definitions of morality - including Catholic.

.

FACT: Morality, can / does exist outside of the Church / Religious belief.
Click to expand...
Of course it can, but it isn’t based on anything objective. For it to be objective it has to exist on its own merits and be true regardless of the conditions, not the interpretation or perspective.
 
I’m guessing that she must be also against allowing jurors the choice to sentence criminals to the death penalty. That would also be imposing religious belief.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
Why does life have intrinsic value, other than to the person who owns that life?
Click to expand...
Glad you asked 🙂
Intrinsic
First published Tue Oct 22, 2002; substantive revision Fri Dec 17, 2010
Click to expand...
Intrinsic value has traditionally been thought to lie at the heart of ethics. Philosophers use a number of terms to refer to such value. The intrinsic value of something is said to be the value that that thing has** “in itself,”** or ** “for its own sake,”** or “as such,” or ** “in its own right.”**
Click to expand...
plato.stanford.edu/entries/value-intrinsic-extrinsic/
And even then, to a suicidal person, even one’s own life has little intrinsic value.
Click to expand...
True it is devalued by that person…but it doesn’t diminish the value of LIFE it’s self.
 
Let’s make this simple:

Here is my original statement:
Originally Posted by kimmielittle
Actually, even If I were Atheist - I would still have a moral base / fiber.
Click to expand...
Prove it wrong 🙂
 
1holycatholic said:
One of the citations is from 1968. It’s not as though this is new knowledge.

Those that demand scientific evidence and also favor abortion will not hesitate to throw science under the bus when it doesn’t agree with their worldview.
Click to expand...
I agree…yet I think it would have been much more difficult to do so if today’s science existed in its entirety during the late 60s and early 70s.

If nothing else, they would have been forced to change their tactics.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top