Democrats

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I have been a democrat most of my life. I believe that abortion is murder, I believe that marriage is between one man and one woman, I believe in stem cell research as long as it is not done using embryonic stem cells. There are many democrats like me.

God bless

Where? Certainly not in any office that matters.

 

[Mac6yver]

For you, an agnostic, what is murder? When does life begin and at what point does a human life become worthy of ‘rights’, from an agnostic point of view?

Let me ask you this way. If your wife or sister were pregnant, and I purposefully and with malice, caused the death of of their unborn child, would you believe I shouldn’t be convicted of murder?

Wow, your questions can not be answered with a short response, but I will try to be as succinct as possible.

The first thing you must understand is that I differentiate between life and sentient life. Life can be anything from a flower to an 8 week old fetus. They are both alive, but neither is sentient. They are not self aware. That is what distinguishes human life from all other organisms on this planet. We are sentient/self aware. Now, I am not intelligent enough to tell you when humans actually become sentient, but I can tell you with no question that it is not before we develop coherent brain waves. It is difficult for me to support late term abortions for this reason, unless of course the mothers life is in jeopardy, at least more jeopardy then a standard pregnancy and birth are associated with. One of the reasons though that I have some serious reservations about supporting late term abortion bans is because I know that people who would like to see all abortions banned would use it to their advantage. Give an inch they take a mile, etc… So, to summarize this portion of my response, murder occurs when one sentient life decides to end another sentient life without that party’s consent. Of course there are exceptions, such as war or self defense.

As for the second part of your question, I would want you to be prosecuted for attempted murder. If you did indeed inflict so much harm on my wife as to abort her fetus that must mean that you caused harm to her in order to do that. In my eyes, attempted murder is just as grave a crime as actual murder Whether or not you succeed in killing the person does not matter, you still had the intent to kill. This is where I believe the law should be changed. It does seem that the law is slightly less stringent when it comes to “attempted murder” versus “murder”. This is wrong in my opinion.

These are just my opinions and I do not expect everyone to agree with them. That is what is wonderful about the world we live in.

Also, just to clarify, I am agnostic. However, I am the type of agnostic that does not question a higher power. I do believe in a higher power. I am just not sure what that higher power is and what he/she/it/they want from us, if anything at all.

 

[dmelosi]

Sentient can mean so many things. How do you determine that the unborn are sentient? What is your basis? How do you know that an 8 week old fetus is sentient? What about a severly disabled person who is in a coma? With your argument as you say Give an inch they take a mile, etc… where does it end on taking a life? Even with the way you think, you say that you believe there may be a higher power…at the worst wouldn’t you rather be safe than sorry if you think there is even a chance at eternal life?

By your arguments…you need to realize that there are people that you may give reason to doubt. IF you someday start to believe more strongly, you have to look ahead at how you would feel then if you did lead others astray now

Wow, your questions can not be answered with a short response, but I will try to be as succinct as possible.

The first thing you must understand is that I differentiate between life and sentient life. Life can be anything from a flower to an 8 week old fetus. They are both alive, but neither is sentient. They are not self aware. That is what distinguishes human life from all other organisms on this planet. We are sentient/self aware. Now, I am not intelligent enough to tell you when humans actually become sentient, but I can tell you with no question that it is not before we develop coherent brain waves. It is difficult for me to support late term abortions for this reason, unless of course the mothers life is in jeopardy, at least more jeopardy then a standard pregnancy and birth are associated with. One of the reasons though that I have some serious reservations about supporting late term abortion bans is because I know that people who would like to see all abortions banned would use it to their advantage. Give an inch they take a mile, etc… So, to summarize this portion of my response, murder occurs when one sentient life decides to end another sentient life without that party’s consent. Of course there are exceptions, such as war or self defense.

As for the second part of your question, I would want you to be prosecuted for attempted murder. If you did indeed inflict so much harm on my wife as to abort her fetus that must mean that you caused harm to her in order to do that. In my eyes, attempted murder is just as grave a crime as actual murder Whether or not you succeed in killing the person does not matter, you still had the intent to kill. This is where I believe the law should be changed. It does seem that the law is slightly less stringent when it comes to “attempted murder” versus “murder”. This is wrong in my opinion.

These are just my opinions and I do not expect everyone to agree with them. That is what is wonderful about the world we live in.

Also, just to clarify, I am agnostic. However, I am the type of agnostic that does not question a higher power. I do believe in a higher power. I am just not sure what that higher power is and what he/she/it/they want from us, if anything at all.

 

[anamchara]

Democrat here, if I ever voted any other way my ancestors would probably come after me I

I don’t like abortion and believe we need to pour as much money as possible into helping this young girls when they do find themselves in this situation, period. I don’t like far right fringes who stand in the street and yell murder, I don’t believe we will ever get anywhere with this. I don’t like saying it’s murder for this reason. It’s mean spirited and only causes more distance and animosity between pro-choice and pro-life people and the women we are trying to help. We need to work together so these babies can be born.

I speak from experience you can’t tell other side it’s murder and expect a conversion of the heart. Conversion of the heart comes from talking about the miracle of life and Gods gift, that should be the focus.

I simply am not comfortable calling it murder. For any women who have experience this it can stay with you for the rest of your life, the last thing a women needs to hear is “you murder your child”

I suppose pro-life want to call it murder to prove thier point and try and get this law changed but I honestly don’t believe this is how we can stop abortion.

Prayers for the end to abortions.

 

[dmelosi]

Democrat here, if I ever voted any other way my ancestors would probably come after me I

I don’t like abortion and believe we need to pour as much money as possible into helping this young girls when they do find themselves in this situation, period. I don’t like far right fringes who stand in the street and yell murder, I don’t believe we will ever get anywhere with this. I don’t like saying it’s murder for this reason. It’s mean spirited and only causes more distance and animosity between pro-choice and pro-life people and the women we are trying to help. We need to work together so these babies can be born.

I speak from experience you can’t tell other side it’s murder and expect a conversion of the heart. Conversion of the heart comes from talking about the miracle of life and Gods gift, that should be the focus.

I simply am not comfortable calling it murder. For any women who have experience this it can stay with you for the rest of your life, the last thing a women needs to hear is “you murder your child”

I suppose pro-life want to call it murder to prove thier point and try and get this law changed but I honestly don’t believe this is how we can stop abortion.

Prayers for the end to abortions.

I am orthodox in my Catholic faith, not far right. You have been brainwashed by the media and the left into calling someone who believes that abortion is murder as being far right. Pro life are calling it what it is murder, no matter how much you wish to sugar coat it. The problem with pro choice people democrat or republican is exactly what you are doing here, simply dumbing down the fact that it is anything but murder.

 

[anamchara]

I am orthodox in my Catholic faith, not far right. You have been brainwashed by the media and the left into calling someone who believes that abortion is murder as being far right. Pro life are calling it what it is murder, no matter how much you wish to sugar coat it. The problem with pro choice people democrat or republican is exactly what you are doing here, simply dumbing down the fact that it is anything but murder.

I am not sugar coating anything and you don’t know anything about me my friend. I am not brain washed. I believe in taking a gentler approach to the victims and possible victims. If you don’t see the love of Christ in that then we have nothing else to say to each other.

 

[dmelosi]

I am not sugar coating anything and you don’t know anything about me my friend. I am not brain washed. I believe in taking a gentler approach to the victims and possible victims. If you don’t see the love of Christ in that then we have nothing else to say to each other.

Never said I knew anything about you. But the problem is that the Democratic party insists that its candidates are pro choice and now the Republican party’s pro life stance seems to be eroding. The gentler approach you talk about should be for the victims, I do not say you are wrong there, but there is no such thing as a gentle approach to accepting murder. At this point in time voting for any pro choice candidate is accepting murder as a way of life.

 

[anamchara]

Never said I knew anything about you.

Saying someone is being “brainwashed” and “sugar coating” is assuming a lot about someones character.

But the problem is that the Democratic party insists that its candidates are pro choice and now the Republican party’s pro life stance seems to be eroding. The gentler approach you talk about should be for the victims, I do not say you are wrong there, but there is no such thing as a gentle approach to accepting murder. At this point in time voting for any pro choice candidate is accepting murder as a way of life.

 

[Mac6yver]

Sentient can mean so many things. How do you determine that the unborn are sentient? What is your basis? How do you know that an 8 week old fetus is sentient? What about a severly disabled person who is in a coma? With your argument as you say Give an inch they take a mile, etc… where does it end on taking a life? Even with the way you think, you say that you believe there may be a higher power…at the worst wouldn’t you rather be safe than sorry if you think there is even a chance at eternal life?

By your arguments…you need to realize that there are people that you may give reason to doubt. IF you someday start to believe more strongly, you have to look ahead at how you would feel then if you did lead others astray now

I do not believe there “may” be a higher power, I said I do believe.

Anyways, to give you my own personal definition of sentient would be very lengthy. Here is the definition:

sen·tient http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif /ˈsɛnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngʃənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationsen-shuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1.having the power of perception by the senses; conscious. 2.characterized by sensation and consciousness.

 

[dmelosi]

Saying someone is being “brainwashed” and “sugar coating” is assuming a lot about someones character.

I disagree, we don’t need to call it murder and can take a gentler approach and as I explained my reasons for this already I see no reason to repeat.

Because someone wants to try and use love and education does not mean they are using a gentle approach to accepting murder. If you want to stand in the street yelling murder that’s your American right but I’d rather focus on helping the young women and perhaps finding ways to work on changing hearts.

 

[Mac6yver]

I am orthodox in my Catholic faith, not far right. You have been brainwashed by the media and the left into calling someone who believes that abortion is murder as being far right. Pro life are calling it what it is murder, no matter how much you wish to sugar coat it. The problem with pro choice people democrat or republican is exactly what you are doing here, simply dumbing down the fact that it is anything but murder.

You should not go around telling people they are brainwashed. Someone could turn that same argument around on you and claim the extreme right has “brainwashed” you. I am sure that she has arrived at her belief through careful personal consideration.

 

[dmelosi]

You should not go around telling people they are brainwashed. Someone could turn that same argument around on you and claim the extreme right has “brainwashed” you. I am sure that she has arrived at her belief through careful personal consideration.

The hole in your theory is that my belief comes from my faith.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I am a Democrat, and I voted that it is not murder.

Then what is it? :banghead:

 

[KathleenElsie]

Democrat here, if I ever voted any other way my ancestors would probably come after me I

I don’t like abortion and believe we need to pour as much money as possible into helping this young girls when they do find themselves in this situation, period. I don’t like far right fringes who stand in the street and yell murder, I don’t believe we will ever get anywhere with this. I don’t like saying it’s murder for this reason. It’s mean spirited and only causes more distance and animosity between pro-choice and pro-life people and the women we are trying to help. We need to work together so these babies can be born.

I speak from experience you can’t tell other side it’s murder and expect a conversion of the heart. Conversion of the heart comes from talking about the miracle of life and Gods gift, that should be the focus.

I simply am not comfortable calling it murder. For any women who have experience this it can stay with you for the rest of your life, the last thing a women needs to hear is “you murder your child”

I suppose pro-life want to call it murder to prove thier point and try and get this law changed but I honestly don’t believe this is how we can stop abortion.

Prayers for the end to abortions.

My ancestors would turn over in their graves if they saw what the Democratic Party has become.

 

[Strummer]

Now wait a minute, you started the assumptions by calling people who stand in the street and yell murder far right fringes. People who do that are pro life, you assume about their political status by calling them far right fringes.

You, in fact, make the erroneous assumption here that every person who is pro-life, stands in the street and yells out “murder”. While there is an array different political bents on the pro-life side, only those most vehemently opposed, those farthest on that end (by definition, fringe) would be the ones in the streets yelling.

Do you not realize that it is the very liberal, fringe thinking people who have enough of a unified voting voice to keep the democratic party pro choice?

Now, where do you get “very liberal, fringe thinking” here? While there may be continuum of reasoning that leads one to either pro-life or pro-choice, ultimately one must make a choice as to what camp one will reside in. We cannot call all pro-choicers “the liberal fringe” anymore than we can accept that all pro-lifers are on the “right-wing finge”.

If anyone has been “brainwashed” it would be those who think it a greater victory to be unyeilding in their righteous indignation rather than actually seeking to solve the problem of decreasing the number of abortions in our country. I think anamchara is seeking the latter.

 

[Mac6yver]

The hole in your theory is that my belief comes from my faith.

Not really. You proved my point, that is your faith. It is not your place to decide what other people’s faith is.

 

[Mac6yver]

Then what is it? :banghead:

I believe I have addressed this earlier in the thread.

 

[Mac6yver]

If anyone has been “brainwashed” it would be those who think it a greater victory to be unyeilding in their righteous indignation rather than actually seeking to solve the problem of decreasing the number of abortions in our country. I think anamchara is seeking the latter.

A very intelligent remark, better then I could do.

 

[Thekla]

Hi Thekla,

I’m glad to hear you say that. From so many of your other posts, it’s easy to conclude you are a hard-core liberal, who is less than fond of conservatives.

I have to ask. As a certified Democrat, firmly against everything the Republican’s represent, how do you reconcile the fact that the Democrats universally support every woman’s right to abortion? As a ‘good’ Catholic, when you pull that lever, voting for a Democrat who you KNOW will do everything in their power to protect and expand abortions, how do you feel?

I am curious about which posts you have concluded make me a hard-core liberal, but we can leave that to another day.

As I said, I believe that abortion is a mortal sin, but I believe that because of my Catholic upbringing and my Catholic faith. I recognize that there are many people in this country who do not have the same beliefs about sin and some who do not believe in the concept of sin at all. Nations have to reach consensus on their laws but sin is the responsibility of the individual.

The Church says that I may not vote for candidates because of their support for abortion and I don’t. Nor do I categorize Catholics into “good” or “bad.”

 

[boppaid]

I am curious about which posts you have concluded make me a hard-core liberal, but we can leave that to another day.

As I said, I believe that abortion is a mortal sin, but I believe that because of my Catholic upbringing and my Catholic faith. I recognize that there are many people in this country who do not have the same beliefs about sin and some who do not believe in the concept of sin at all. Nations have to reach consensus on their laws but sin is the responsibility of the individual.

The Church says that I may not vote for candidates because of their support for abortion and I don’t. Nor do I categorize Catholics into “good” or “bad.”

I answered that it is murder, and my reasoning for still voting democrat is the exact same as thekla’s. (Thanks, Thekla, for typing it out so I didn’t have to. )