Demon/devil pacts in Dungeons&Dragons

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Lost_Wanderer said:
Seeing as I’m raring to try the new edition and have all intentions on being a warlock plumbing into the secrets of the ancient ones… I’ll give you a call when people around me start having manic visions of non-euclidean architecture and fourth-fifth-sixth-dimensional cephalopods. :whacky:

If these saints were Renaissance and like their Shakespeare, I can actually imagine them having pacts with the fey folk. That means fauns, satyrs, and even the faerie queen, Titania herself!

Uh-huh. Such evil indeed. (“Whatcha gonna do Ms. Saint? Summon Philoctetes to train you into a hero? HAHAHAHAHA!!!”)

Ed, if the likes of Cthulhu are real, then all life is meaningless. Otherwise, it’s all just gonna be Lovecraft Lite. Same aesthetics but half the characteristic hopelessness of the original. :rotfl:
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I know where you’re coming from but from a Christian point of view, Satan and demons are real. Not Cthulhu 🙂

Speaking as a writer and editor who works for a company that publishes fantasy fiction, there is a difference between writing a book where certain ideas are fixed, like a character makes a pact with the Devil. The story cannot be manipulated. It always ends badly for the character who made a pact with evil.

In a role-playing game, the Dungeon Master can add his take or beliefs or spin on this. It’s not fixed. Plus, unlike a book, in between turns playing, I’ve been in games with a mix of people. Some are influenced by this. It could just be curiosity that leads them to books that do claim magic is real. (Not counting Cthulhu.)

Peace,
Ed
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
Seeing as I’m raring to try the new edition and have all intentions on being a warlock plumbing into the secrets of the ancient ones… I’ll give you a call when people around me start having manic visions of non-euclidean architecture and fourth-fifth-sixth-dimensional cephalopods. :whacky:
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Nah, sixth-dimensional cephalopods are so '30s. Lectroids from the Eighth Dimension are where it’s at these days 😃
 
Came across this last night and immediately thought of this thread:

“All such superstitious arts, therefore, whether of a trifling or harmful nature, which have been instituted through a pestilential association of human beings with demons, in a kind of pact of faithless and fickle friendship, are to be utterly repudiated and shunned by the Christian. Not that an idol is anything, says the apostle, *but because what they sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God; I do not wish you to become the associates of demons *(1 Cor 10:19-20). And what the apostle said about idols and about the sacrifices which are offered in their honor is to be taken as applying to all the imaginary signs that either draw people to the worship of idols or of creation and its parts as though they were gods, or that have to do with remedial charms and other observances which have not been, so to say, publicly promulgated by God to promote love of God and neighbor, but which instead distract the hearts of wretched people in pursuit of their own private appetites for temporal goods.”

— St. Augustine, On Teaching Christianity 2.36
 
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For the umpteen-dozenth time, the “demons” in D&D are as real as the vorpal sword in D&D. Neither are real, neither have anything to do with reality. If you are fact/fiction discerning deficient, stay away from the game. But what St Augustine was writing about has sod all to do with the demons in D&D (or the pacts that PCs or NPCs might make with them).
 
Pat_Payne said:
Nah, sixth-dimensional cephalopods are so '30s. Lectroids from the Eighth Dimension are where it’s at these days 😃
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Bu-but… teh whispers! They haunt meh! I must answer teh call! :hypno:
edwest2 said:
In a role-playing game, the Dungeon Master can add his take or beliefs or spin on this. It’s not fixed. Plus, unlike a book, in between turns playing, I’ve been in games with a mix of people. Some are influenced by this. It could just be curiosity that leads them to books that do claim magic is real. (Not counting Cthulhu.)
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Look I get what you’re saying but a parallel line only shares an angle. It doesn’t mean it’s going to have the same destination. (Heck, by its very nature, its not supposed to.) Yes, there are pacts and yes, there is this underlying theme of gaining power through deals and forbidden knowledge.

However, such is the nature of a fantasy world. Do you really think a fallen angel is going to look like this? The real world isn’t as awesome. I actually wish demons in real life were like the ones in D&D. I wouldn’t need holy water or a hotline to the nearest parish. Just a couple high-end boom spells, a troop of mithril automatons, and a pair of enchanted semi-automatics to shoot that ugly mug. (And from that point on, you may address me as Vincent Dante. :cool:)

I mean, who needs a deal with the devil when you can just rip off his wings and seize his crown of horns? :cool: But alas, the reality of Catholic theology doesn’t present devils as easily slaughtered, bargained, or outwitted. (Personally speaking, I actually have issues with this but that’s just one among the many that I don’t have much time to extrapolate.)
 
Melissa said:
For the umpteen-dozenth time, the “demons” in D&D are as real as the vorpal sword in D&D. Neither are real, neither have anything to do with reality. If you are fact/fiction discerning deficient, stay away from the game. But what St Augustine was writing about has sod all to do with the demons in D&D (or the pacts that PCs or NPCs might make with them).
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It’s great to live in a time and place when dark and evil spirits are something to joke about and play around with, but remember that the rest of the world isn’t as “enlightened” as your part of the globe, and that there are places in the world where evil beings are no laughing matter. Some people take that stuff seriously, and dismissively ignoring the ‘weaker’ conscience of other Christians who aren’t as enlightened as you is a rookie move.

In the larger passage, Augustine is clearly warning Christians away from meaningless practices that presume real demons exist and can be manipulated. It’s true he’s not talking about Dungeons & Dragons or other children’s games. But if you pay attention to the last sentence, you’ll see what his real concern is–meaningless distractions that make people comfortable with evil and disinterested in the good.

And thanks again for the picture of the rotting horse corpse.
 
1newcatholic said:
It must be nice to live in a time and place when dark and evil spirits are something to joke about and play around with, but remember that the rest of the world isn’t as “enlightened” as your part of the globe, and that there are places in the world where evil beings are no laughing matter.
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That speaks more about their lack of enlightenment than any actual proof of the oh so powerful evil beings. Remember the Bogeyman? I find it quite logical to believe that the more you fear something, the more power it has over you. Now, reverse it.

Please tell me where these so-called evil beings dwell because I’m bored and would like to kill me some monsters. 😛
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
That speaks more about their lack of enlightenment than any actual proof of the oh so powerful evil beings. Remember the Bogeyman? I find it quite logical to believe that the more you fear something, the more power it has over you. Now, reverse it.

Please tell me where these so-called evil beings dwell because I’m bored and would like to kill me some monsters. 😛
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Apparently they’re in Tulsa.

tulsaworld.com/homepage2/tulsa-exorcist-facing-increasing-demonic-activity-black-mass-saturday/article_78b25dd2-0aa6-537e-9062-d1777ce54478.html
 
Melissa said:
If you are fact/fiction discerning deficient, stay away from the game.
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👍 This is what I say about just about anything with fictional demons/magic/whatnot.

Augustine had good logic. But if you apply it too liberally, that is what happens. If I really wanted, I could use that same quote by Augustine to argue that the Divine Comedy is sinful to read.
 
1newcatholic said:
It’s great to live in a time and place when dark and evil spirits are something to joke about and play around with, but remember that the rest of the world isn’t as “enlightened” as your part of the globe, and that there are places in the world where evil beings are no laughing matter. Some people take that stuff seriously, and dismissively ignoring the ‘weaker’ conscience of other Christians who aren’t as enlightened as you is a rookie move.

In the larger passage, Augustine is clearly warning Christians away from meaningless practices that presume real demons exist and can be manipulated. It’s true he’s not talking about Dungeons & Dragons or other children’s games. But if you pay attention to the last sentence, you’ll see what his real concern is–meaningless distractions that make people comfortable with evil and disinterested in the good.

And thanks again for the picture of the rotting horse corpse.
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In Hong Kong, when something bad happens, the average person starts saying “fox spirit.”

Peace,
Ed
 
Melissa said:
If you are fact/fiction discerning deficient, stay away from the game.
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The separation of fact and fiction applies to a very small segment of people. Those people often don’t know they are troubled, so it’s up to the people around them to step in.

I think the more widely applicable concern regards people who vicariously indulge in warped fantasy. Anyone who has any knowledge of RPG’s, fan-fic forums, etc., knows that for a considerable segment, the creative process is vicarious and self-indulgent.

So one has to analyze the why and the how. Say a DM decides to insert a prostitute for a game. Why is he/she doing it? Is it just representative of the gritty world in which the game takes place? Or just to titillate? And how is he/she doing it? Is it adding in lewdness gratuitously? Etc.
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
I asked for monsters. You know? The kind that burst out of a smoking crevice, stomp around a city, and have people worshiping it out of sheer terror? Not sure how a spike in parapsychological illnesses fits the description.
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You asked for evil beings, and then reduced all demonic activity to “parapsychological illnesses.”

The Catholic Church does not teach that all cases of demonic possession represent mental illness, although mental illness may manifest itself in a way that looks like demon possession.

If you don’t think demons are real thing, that’s fine. You should be aware that your church disagrees with you.
 
1newcatholic said:
You asked for evil beings, and then reduced all demonic activity to “parapsychological illnesses.”

The Catholic Church does not teach that all cases of demonic possession represent mental illness, although mental illness may manifest itself in a way that looks like demon possession.

If you don’t think demons are real thing, that’s fine. You should be aware that your church disagrees with you.
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You don’t know what parapsychology is do you?

Wikipedia:
Parapsychology is a field of study concerned with the investigation of paranormal and psychic phenomena. Parapsychologists study telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, near-death experiences, reincarnation, apparitional experiences, and other supernatural and paranormal claims.
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Lost_Wanderer said:
You don’t know what parapsychology is do you?
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Parapsychology investigates supernatural phenomenon associated with the mind. When you skimmed the article you cut-and-pasted, did you notice that “demons” or demonic activities are not a subject of this field of investigation?

Do you understand the difference between “illness” and “possession?”
 
1newcatholic said:
Parapsychology investigates supernatural phenomenon associated with the mind. When you skimmed the article you cut-and-pasted, did you notice that “demons” or demonic activities are not a subject of this field of investigation?
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That would fall under “supernatural claims.” Think about that before you Ctrl + F the whole thing.
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
That would fall under “supernatural claims.” Think about that before you Ctrl + F the whole thing.
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Parapsychology is a discredited field of paranormal research into psychological phenomena. By lumping demonic possession in with this branch of supernaturalism, you are discrediting demonic possession as a spiritual event and framing it as an abnormal psychological condition already present within the natural human mind–an illness, as you described it.

Which is fine. I don’t care.

But I like being right.

Demons are supernatural beings, but not all supernatural things are demons–do you follow the distinction? Just because you saw the word “supernatural” in the article doesn’t mean parapsychology has anything to do with demons.
 
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