Demons and free will

[Amandil]

I wonder how the logistics of this actually works. For instance, as I understand it, the Devil is constantly trying to ensnare people, so that’s potentially billions of temptations each day.* So, does God consult with the Devil – in advance – billions of times each day, deciding which people will be tempted and which won’t?

There is utter enmity between God and Satan. There is no colaboration.

Satan and his devils are neither merely interested in the disinterested pursuit of something we call “evil”.

I believe that Satan wants a universe where anything and everyone is absorbed into him, void of any and all individuality, and therefore nothing or no one can say “I” except through Him.

What God obscures from Satan and the devils is that everything that they do in their pride to achieve that end only works to add to God’s glory in the end.

Except I’ve also read on these forums and elsewhere that even people in the state of grace – people who haven’t dabbled in any occult practices whatsoever – can also be tempted and possessed.

Temptation is one thing, possession is a whole other matter entirely.

Those who have been possessed are so only because they have permitted it.

• However, I also understand that the Devil is not omnipresent, like God is, so it would seem that these temptations must be done individually, one at a time. If that’s true, then it would seem that the Devil could only tempt a very limited number of people each day.

Satan is not alone in his endeavors. He has a host at his back. But still at best all they can do is tempt us. We all possess sufficient grace from God to resist and depend on His help. Its just myself, like many others, we get so wrapped up in ourselves in the trial we forget the myriad of helps available.

But temptations are not impossible to overcome.

 

[mdcpensive1]

There is utter enmity between God and Satan. There is no colaboration.

Satan and his devils are neither merely interested in the disinterested pursuit of something we call “evil”.

I believe that Satan wants a universe where anything and everyone is absorbed into him, void of any and all individuality, and therefore nothing or no one can say “I” except through Him.

What God obscures from Satan and the devils is that everything that they do in their pride to achieve that end only works to add to God’s glory in the end.

Another way of looking at this is that Satan found out about what he lost and is so hateful that he wants to destroy the plan of God to bring His children back to Him. This is why:

1. the Chosen People (Jews) were attempted to be eliminated in the haulocost because they have a part to play in the second coming,
2. The priests were extremely tempted and many fell which caused the latest priest scandal. Destroying the priesthood would end the sacraments and hierarchy.
3. the current attack on the family through abortion, contraception and gay marriage. The family is the strength of the Church and the future of it.
4. I might even consider the revolution started by Luther since it made a division in the Church and it is easier to conquer when divided.

Satan now knows what he had lost and he is now sowing hate and sin wherever he can. But in the end, Satan’s head will be crushed with only a heel being bruised. This means that Satan will lose and the heel will be bruised because of the reaction to stepping on the head.

 

[mikekle]

Not so. In the General Resurrection everyone will receive a glorified body like the one Jesus had after His own Resurrection. Otherwise there would be no point in a Resurrection, we could just go on floating about as disembodied spirits for eternity.

The usual explanation is that they were made to serve, but did not want to. Whether that means “serve God” or “serve humans” or both varies, since very little about the Fall of the angels has actually been revealed to us.

The notion that the fallen angels must know something (presumably something bad) about God that He is keeping from us is … kind of creepy. What do we do then with the equally intelligent and twice as numerous loyal angels?

You and Robertanthony seem willing to accept all sorts of Scriptural and Traditional assertions with no problem – that there is a God, that it is the Christian God, that angels exist and a third of them fell – but not assertions from the same sources that God is good and loving. Why is that?

Usagi

Yes, but the people in heaven right now dont have those glorified bodies, that only happens after Jesus comes again, so…the people there now are in purely spirit form.

Regarding the fall of the angels, You are right, we dont know alot about this event, and I truly think these are some major details. The angels are intelligent beyond what we could comprehend, and for satan and so many others to literally walk out and refuse to serve a God whom they know full well about, tells me there is something missing from the version we are told, it just does not make sense for such a superior being, like a angel to commit such a grave mistake( and not just 1 angel, it was 1/3 of ALL the angels…that is ALOT of angels that were thinking alike).

 

[mikekle]

One answer can be the desire to believe in some conspiracy theories. Another one is that we all hold opinions and we don’t like it when others tell us we are wrong or we look wrong when it is disproven. It builds up a resistance to reason which we have to overcome when we look for the truth.
Usagi, you have asked a good question that I even have to ask myself sometimes…

I look forward to the answer from mikekle also.

All Im saying that is there is probably alot we do not know about, concerning the fall of the demons, we dont know how many 1/3 is, but we can be pretty sure it was alot (probably thousands or millions)…That is ALOT of angels that were somehow convinced they should follow satan, they obviously thought their existence would be better, or else they would not have fallen…right? So, they probably knew something about God that we do not, that aided in their decision. Pride would not factor into it IMO, as their intelligence would have surpassed any pride they had.

I never said I thought God was cruel and evil, but I do think we are not given the full picture of him and his nature, like the angels are, they have lived in heaven, they know things we do not, they have a superior intellect, everyone will admit the bible does not give us everything, its only a small part of the picture, only what we need at the moment.

 

[mdcpensive1]

All Im saying that is there is probably alot we do not know about, concerning the fall of the demons, we dont know how many 1/3 is, but we can be pretty sure it was alot (probably thousands or millions)…That is ALOT of angels that were somehow convinced they should follow satan, they obviously thought their existence would be better, or else they would not have fallen…right? So, they probably knew something about God that we do not, that aided in their decision. Pride would not factor into it IMO, as their intelligence would have surpassed any pride they had.

I never said I thought God was cruel and evil, but I do think we are not given the full picture of him and his nature, like the angels are, they have lived in heaven, they know things we do not, they have a superior intellect, everyone will admit the bible does not give us everything, its only a small part of the picture, only what we need at the moment.

I am not sure you can say the fallen angels decided to follow Satan. I believe unless I am wrong that it is somewhat like what we do. We decide for ourselves what we want (to do good and act in charity) or to go our own way and not follow God. I believe it is not so much a matter of f*ollowing another *as it is to decide for themselves. I don’t think we as humans decide to follow Satan as a leader but follow our own rules as Adam and Eve did.

 

[Amandil]

The usual explanation is that they were made to serve, but did not want to. Whether that means “serve God” or “serve humans” or both varies, since very little about the Fall of the angels has actually been revealed to us.

The common hypothesis is that all the angels were given a vision of salvation history, that the Word would become human, and thus would be King of all. In God the Son identifying Himself with humanity in order to lift up humanity to have a share in His divinity, this vision is said to have sent a third of the angels into rebellion.

The idea of pure spirits such as themselves, who would be required not to just serve creatures, but to have to seemingly submit to these same creatures as they would the Word Incarnate and God the Father as well; the pride they possessed in their status as pure spirits and the envy by which the beheld man’s eventual exalted status, and their utter lack of understanding why God the Father would bestow such favor upon man, is what is speculated to be the reason for their rebellion.

That seems to be the position of writers such as Lewis, Tolkien, Milton, and others at least.

The notion that the fallen angels must know something (presumably something bad) about God that He is keeping from us is … kind of creepy. What do we do then with the equally intelligent and twice as numerous loyal angels?

I don’t think its that what they do know but rather what they don’t know that is the cause of their actions.

I think that what they don’t know or understand is love. That’s the essential source of their problem.

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

Temptation is one thing, possession is a whole other matter entirely.

Those who have been possessed are so only because they have permitted it.

…]

Again, as I indicated previously, I’ve heard exorcist Fr. Euteneuer say otherwise in an interview on EWTN. In fact, he went so far as to say that even innocent children could be possessed if God permitted it.

If I get nothing else out of this thread, I would like to get an authoritative answer to this question.

 

[Amandil]

Again, as I indicated previously, I’ve heard exorcist Fr. Euteneuer say otherwise in an interview on EWTN. In fact, he went so far as to say that even innocent children could be possessed if God permitted it.

If I get nothing else out of this thread, I would like to get an authoritative answer to this question.

There is an important distinction not being addressed in this statement in that nothing happens without God permitting it.

Part of what God “permits” has also to do with human free will as well. Our free will decisions are part of the numerous coordinates by which God establishes events according to His providence from His eternity(His unbounded “now”).

 

[cornbread_r2]

There is an important distinction not being addressed in this statement in that nothing happens without God permitting it.

Part of what God “permits” has also to do with human free will as well. Our free will decisions are part of the numerous coordinates by which God establishes events according to His providence from His eternity(His unbounded “now”).

I’ll restate the question just so there’s no misunderstanding as to what’s being asked.

Is it possible for people in a state of grace – and who have never dabbled, practiced, explored or engaged in occult, New Age or Satanic practices in any way whatsoever – to be possessed by the Devil?

 

[Thorns]

I’ll restate the question just so there’s no misunderstanding as to what’s being asked.

Is it possible for people in a state of grace – and who have never dabbled, practiced, explored or engaged in occult, New Age or Satanic practices in any way whatsoever – to be possessed by the Devil?

Harrased by the devil? Sure. Attacked? Yes.

Possessed? No.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Harrased by the devil? Sure. Attacked? Yes.

Possessed? No.

Can you direct me to an authoritative church teaching that supports this?

BTW, I’ve also submitted my question to Ask an Apologist.

 

[Amandil]

Can you direct me to an authoritative church teaching that supports this?

BTW, I’ve also submitted my question to Ask an Apologist.

I don’t think that you’ll find such a thing as “an authoritative church teaching” on demonic possession.

The Church doesn’t make it a point to specifically define a position on every single supernatural phenomena.

 

[raspberrybear]

I recall writing an essay some time ago that briefly touched upon this topic (It was about the effects of religion on madness).

“The early Christian fathers, while they had believed in these ideas, did not agree with any practises which questioned human free will or the power of God. They did agree that miracles were performed by Christ and the saints, and that the supernatural powers of God had an influence in the human world, but the patriarchs did not make any attempt to promote the popular superstitions of the people. The Church refused to accept that the devil could overpower a person’s free will, because even Satan was still under the power of God. As mentioned earlier, they taught that demons could only enter a person’s body if God so allowed it. This means that the Church did not see the possessed, generally, as victims, but as people who had in some way agreed to be possessed or had sinned in a way that allowed it to happen. This led to some people being condemned as witches, although the craze for witch hunting did not appear at this time.”

Ofc, this was in the Middle Ages. But there is the idea that God does indeed allow for some possessions or for demons to influence people, perhaps in order for them to become stronger in their faith (many saints were tormented by demons!)

On the other hand, I recall reading somewhere, if one dabbles in the occult and seeks demons, then they are actively opening themselves for possession, in which case one has used one’s free will to go against God. Therefore, it may be hard to rid oneself of the affliction.

 

[Graceejou]

God created the world in an incomplete state and we are called to cooperate with God to fight evil. This world is just a process to readying us for divinity and perfection that we will be when we are in heaven. Think of these evils, battles and suffering as opportunities given to you by God’s grace, to help perfect you for the completeness of heaven.

God could.have created a world where everything was perfect. But would we be happy with nothing do to make it better? We are in a state of imperfect while here on earth. Everything we do is for the glory of God to prepare us to be holy enough to live in His presence for all eternity.

Free will is the opportunity to choose between God’s love or not.

As for demons, they work only as far as God allows them. And God only allows them to hurt you if you actively seek them, through your lifestyle, actions or words.

 

[Amandil]

God created the world in an incomplete state and we are called to cooperate with God to fight evil. This world is just a process to readying us for divinity and perfection that we will be when we are in heaven. Think of these evils, battles and suffering as opportunities given to you by God’s grace, to help perfect you for the completeness of heaven.

God could.have created a world where everything was perfect. But would we be happy with nothing do to make it better? We are in a state of imperfect while here on earth. Everything we do is for the glory of God to prepare us to be holy enough to live in His presence for all eternity.

Free will is the opportunity to choose between God’s love or not.

As for demons, they work only as far as God allows them. And God only allows them to hurt you if you actively seek them, through your lifestyle, actions or words.

Remember that God did create that “perfect” world. We ruined it through the Fall.

 

[meltzerboy]

God created the world in an incomplete state and we are called to cooperate with God to fight evil. This world is just a process to readying us for divinity and perfection that we will be when we are in heaven. Think of these evils, battles and suffering as opportunities given to you by God’s grace, to help perfect you for the completeness of heaven.

God could.have created a world where everything was perfect. But would we be happy with nothing do to make it better? We are in a state of imperfect while here on earth. Everything we do is for the glory of God to prepare us to be holy enough to live in His presence for all eternity.

Free will is the opportunity to choose between God’s love or not.

As for demons, they work only as far as God allows them. And God only allows them to hurt you if you actively seek them, through your lifestyle, actions or words.

You are expressing Judaic teaching when you say that G-d created the universe in an imperfect state and it is up to us humans to make it better. I don’t believe this is Catholic (or, in general, Christian) teaching.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Regarding my question if people in a state of grace can be possessed:

First, it hasn’t been answered by a CAF apologist and I really don’t expect it to be.

Second, some posters on this concurrent thread claim, contrary to what I’ve been told here, that it is not only possible, but that it has, in fact, occurred. Another example of why these forums are called Catholic Answers?

 

[mdcpensive1]

Regarding my question if people in a state of grace can be possessed:

First, it hasn’t been answered by a CAF apologist and I really don’t expect it to be.

Second, some posters on this concurrent thread claim, contrary to what I’ve been told here, that it is not only possible, but that it has, in fact, occurred. Another example of why these forums are called Catholic Answers?

My understanding is that sanctifying grace does not protect us from demonic possession. It is like sanctifying grace does not protect us from mortal sin. The will is free to seek temptation and to surrender to it. I think possession does not have to be total but can be in various areas of life ie drinking, drugs, violence etc.

 

[cornbread_r2]

My understanding is that sanctifying grace does not protect us from demonic possession. It is like sanctifying grace does not protect us from mortal sin. The will is free to seek temptation and to surrender to it. I think possession does not have to be total but can be in various areas of life ie drinking, drugs, violence etc.

Committing mortal sin is a free choice made with full knowledge and consent. Being possessed by the Devil – even while in a state of grace – is something that’s permitted by God, presumably, contrary to the will and consent of the possessed person – so I don’t think they’re comparable situations.

I have been referring to bodily possession of a person by a demon.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Committing mortal sin is a free choice made with full knowledge and consent. Being possessed by the Devil – even while in a state of grace – is something that’s permitted by God, presumably, contrary to the will and consent of the possessed person – so I don’t think they’re comparable situations.

I have been referring to bodily possession of a person by a demon.

Yes possession is “permitted” by God as is our ability to commit mortal sin (Rom 8:28). What I am saying is that God does not go against our will and permit our possession. It has to be a cooperative act on our part for it to happen. We have to make an entry point for satan to come in. Hope this helps.