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mpi
Guest
You sound like a low income person who is passing judgement on high income people. What I hear in your post is “High income people have enough money - they shouldn’t be reducing their charity”. This is a disgusting attitude. It is at the heart of class warfare.
I make over 250k. I have a certain amount of money that I can donate to charity - after I consider tax deductions. The tax deductions go down - the charitable giving goes down.
You know nothing about tax law if you think that a good accountant or lawyer can somehow make the deduction higher. High income people already do everything they can to reduce taxes - accountants can’t make money out of nothing.
Donating money to charity is not simply some unicorn in the sky state of mind. It is a decision about your families best financial interest versus the cause in question.
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Will_B
Guest
What happened to the tithe? It should make no difference what the government does regarding what can and can not be deducted… The least we should be giving to our home church is 10% of your gross. // If you home church is St. Mary’s, that church should be getting at least 10% of your gross. If you visit St. Paul’s church you should give that church an offering, but the tithe goes to St. Mary’s Church.
Malachi Chapter 3
8] Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, `How are we robbing thee?’ In your tithes and offerings.
9] You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you.
10] Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house; and thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you an overflowing blessing.
Would you like to see your home church grow? Tithe
Would you like to see your home church give more to the poor? Tithe
Would you like to see your home church be able to support more clergy? Tithe
Malachi Chapter 3
8] Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, `How are we robbing thee?’ In your tithes and offerings.
9] You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you.
10] Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house; and thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you an overflowing blessing.
Would you like to see your home church grow? Tithe
Would you like to see your home church give more to the poor? Tithe
Would you like to see your home church be able to support more clergy? Tithe
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chewchoo
Guest
sounds like you are passing judgement on me!
250K+ is an awful lot of money, and if you can’t afford to be charitable, then maybe you need to revisit your budget.
AMEN!!
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mpi
Guest
Some people do more than tithe to the church. Many people give to Catholic lay organizations.
I focus on reality. This policy will reduce church giving.
It is a little like government funding for abortion. Just because I am “enlightened” enough to not abort, doesn’t mean that I should be indifferent to a policy that hurts the dignity of human life. Same thing for tax policy affecting churh donations.
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chewchoo
Guest
funding abortion mills and charitiable giving are two totally different things. (unless of course your charity of choice is PP)
how on earth did the church survive for 2000 years with out the benefit of tax deductions? we are in the world, not of it.
and yes, i give 10%, to a wide variety of charitiable causes.
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mpi
Guest
The arrogance!sounds like you are passing judgement on me!
250K+ is an awful lot of money, and if you can’t afford to be charitable, then maybe you need to revisit your budget.
AMEN!!
I give plenty to the church and I can afford to be charitable. I want to be as charitable as I can be and this policy hurts me and it hurts the church. You cannot relate because of some unchristian emotion you have concerning high income people. I don’t know what it is but it seems as though you consider it OK to hurt the chrch as long as the “evil” rich are hurt as well.
In general, high income people are very productive and efficient. They maximize the charitable giving such that the recipient’s receive the maximum benefit. High income people, people who invest will have less money to grow their businesses and give in the future.
But supply side economics is not your forte - so I guess you will just have to be happy knowing that the wealthy are hurting, even though the church will be hurt more.
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mpi
Guest
Are you in favor of this new tax policy or not? I am opposed, as are most people in this forum.
Are you in favor of reduced tax deductions for church giving?
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chewchoo
Guest
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Badaliyyah
Guest
i’ve never understood why people expect a tax deduction for giving to charities or churches. And especially for churches it is just a surreptitious way of making the churches dependent on the state so the state can exert their influence on them…make it harder for churches to protest state policies…make it harder for churches to fully enter into the political sphere where they belong. The state can always threaten to cut the money if they don’t play by the rules and stay in their quiet private-sphere and out of public life. And so the churches become clients of the state.
the Catholic Church would be well served to disentangle itself from the political morass that is American politics (and no doubt this is true for the Church well beyond America).
salaam.
the Catholic Church would be well served to disentangle itself from the political morass that is American politics (and no doubt this is true for the Church well beyond America).
salaam.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
The only one slinging insults is you. No one has called the rich evil but you. Yes I have read about the tax cuts, I honestly think they are for the best.
Easy off on the poorest and have the richest pay what we regular guys pay now. Basicly a reverse of whats been the norm for so long.
An Sir if tax cuts harm religious groups then please explain some of these small fringe religious groups that often don’t have tax exempt status growing off the support of very poor people. Most certainly Catholics can do just as well could they not?
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mpi
Guest
Separation of church and state. Churches are not taxed. Income from those who contribute to them should not be taxed either. It was not taxed previously, for the most part, as the deduction matched the tax owing.
So I agree with you regarding separation of church and state. This policy increases the link between church and state, so it should be eliminated.
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mpi
Guest
What tax cuts are you referring to specifically?
Obama is increasing tax rates, which usually winds up reducing tax revenue, depending upon where you are on the Laffer curve.
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Badaliyyah
Guest
i fail to see how anything about tax-exemption DECREASES the link between the Church and the state since it allows the state to control political speech. Tax-exempt status is a disaster and we can see just how dependent on state they are by how desperate they are to maintain their tax-exemption for financial reasons. The churches are so entangled and dependent they cannot even imagine having to be treated as if they were not state-clients. People here are using it as a way of saying the state is trying to bankrupt them…i.e., control them. Of course the state is trying to control them. That is the point of having them be so deeply dependent on the state.
the Church needs to get out of this while it can…drop its tax-exempt status, figure out ways to stop taking state money for its institutions, educational and otherwise…or it will lose any independent voice and any control over its own affairs (which are already fairly deeply compromised).
salaam.
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Scalia
Guest
You don’t know any small, family businesses do you? If you did and the husband and wife filed jointly, they are considered rich by you and BHO. These small businesses often operate at a loss for a number of years and then have years of profits over $250,000. This plan kills them.
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chewchoo
Guest
i am not an accountant, nor do i play one on TV. and the thing we are talking about here is loosing a tax deduction on charitiable contributions. i don’t see how that will kill anyone. all of the other new tax law “adjustments”, well that is a different story. more power to all of the small business owners, i’m just a cubicle dweller. what do i know. throw your insults, that’s fine.
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mpi
Guest
You make some good points - especially with respect to Catholic Universities and churches accepting federal money. These Universities are, in many cases, rotten to the core with secularism. They should refuse all federal money so as to not be beholden to them. I’ll even extend that argument to education vouchers.
W.r.t. taxes it is more nuanced, however. I think that any income given to churches should be tax neutral. This policy means that money intended for churches (private giving) should not have a deduction that is less than the amount that was initially taxed.
Your philosophy is correct. I think you need to distinguish between Catholic institutions or people accepting federal dollars, and taxation on charitable giving.
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cyberwolf001
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Will_B
Guest
If I remember my history correctly, the reason for the deduction of charitable giving on the US income tax was to encourage giving to Non-profit organizations…
So… To remove these deductions would do the reverse…
Making the desire of the socialist come true… Only the Government can take care of the poor, so lets raise taxes to accomplish that task.
Like other Christian issues, we have been given a task by our God to take care of the poor.
When were you thirsty Lord, and we gave you drink?
When were you hungry Lord, and we gave you food?
When were you without a home Lord, and we took you in?
When did we see you naked Lord, and we clothed you?
“I say, when you did this to the least of these, you did it unto me.”
So, regardless of what the government does… The Church has been given direction by our Lord to give…
And the tithe is the minimum… See previous thread posted by Will B
So… To remove these deductions would do the reverse…
Making the desire of the socialist come true… Only the Government can take care of the poor, so lets raise taxes to accomplish that task.
Like other Christian issues, we have been given a task by our God to take care of the poor.
When were you thirsty Lord, and we gave you drink?
When were you hungry Lord, and we gave you food?
When were you without a home Lord, and we took you in?
When did we see you naked Lord, and we clothed you?
“I say, when you did this to the least of these, you did it unto me.”
So, regardless of what the government does… The Church has been given direction by our Lord to give…
And the tithe is the minimum… See previous thread posted by Will B
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YADA
Guest
Also, most new small businesses are S - Corps … as such they are considered pass through entities … they don;t actually pay Corporate Income Taxes but the company profits are added into the individual taxpayer’s income - even when the money remains in the business and never ‘passes’ into the individuals private accounts …
I have shown a profit in some years [December 31st] … that money never left the company … and had to borrow money in April to pay income taxes on the “profit” that was used to pay salaries for my employees and pay company bills in January - March …
For the gentlman who thinks deductability is not the primary factor in giving … yes you are correct … my husband and I usually average about 15 - 20 % - of our gross in charitable giving annually - We have rarely made over 100K … only in a couple of years have we crossed that mark …and currently I am on unemployment for the 1st time in 32 years! … I have had to lay off all of my employees - things are rough …
We are able to give more then we might because of the deductability … every dollar we are not sending to Uncle Sam we can spend where we feel it will do the most good. So the person who makes $100,000 and who donates $10,000 [10%] could increase his donation by an additional $2,000 if they were in a 20% tax bracket because of the ability to reduce the income by the amount of their donation …
Without making this too complex [like our tax system] …
With an Income of $100,000 and a non-deductable $10,000 donation and with a 20 % tax = $20,000
you have $100,000 - $10,000 - $20,000 leaving $70,000 for the individual …
With an Income of $100,000 less $10,000 deductable donation] the income becomes $90,000 with a 20 % tax = $18,000
you have $100,000 - 10,000 - 18,000 leaving $72,000 for the individual …
and thus we could have …
With an Income of $100,000 less $12,000 donation] the income becomes $88,000 with a 20 % tax = $17,600
So you have $100,000 - 12,000 - 17,600 leaving $70,400 for the individual …
I am sure when you look at this example you can see how charities benefit from the tax policy … and the governemnt long ago realized the societal good that comes from charitable giving …
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