Denial - general discussion

[Anglewannabe]

Ok, I think to start I will state what I believe the definition of denial is. Perhaps a bit obvious but if I am mistaken please someone correct me if I am wrong

Denial: The absolute refusal to see the truth when there evidence is clearly apparent. Is this correct

Next, I am wondering about certain behaviours that perhaps stem from denial.

And these are examples. Let’s say 2 women are the same height. And let’s say to be healthy, the most they can weight is 150 pounds. At 151 they would be considered medically overweight.

Let’s say woman A weights 155 pounds and has body image issues. Let’s say woman B has strong self esteem and weights 160 pounds. Woman B goes to the doctor and she is told she needs to loose 10 pounds to be healthy. So woman B tries to watch what she eats. She tells her friends as a matter of fact that she is trying to loose weight because she is overweight. Woman A starts to go on and on saying that woman B does not know what she is talking about and that she does not think woman B is overweight. No matter how much woman B tries to politely change the topic, woman A won’t let it go. Could that be a possible behavior motivated by denial?

Or, let’s say 2 girls have boyfriends that are constantly standing them up. So one woman says ‘I have had it with being treated like this I am breaking up’ The second woman starts going on and on about how woman #1 is being too picky and it is understandable that a man will stand his girlfriend up. Could that behavior be motivated by denial?

Thanks

Angie

 

[Allegra]

I would say that both of those situations would constitute a simple difference of opinion and values and probably not a case of denial. Ten pounds are not likely to trigger a health crisis and everyone has a different standard of behavior that they are willing to accept from their romantic partner. However, when someone is in denial about something, they do tend to deny that problems exist.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I would say that both of those situations would constitute a simple difference of opinion and values and probably not a case of denial. Ten pounds are not likely to trigger a health crisis and everyone has a different standard of behavior that they are willing to accept from their romantic partner. However, when someone is in denial about something, they do tend to deny that problems exist.

Agreed, they are not the best examples. I guess I am just wondering what is so wrong with denial? If it does not cause the person to have wrong behaviours, why not just stay in it?

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Agreed, they are not the best examples. I guess I am just wondering what is so wrong with denial? If it does not cause the person to have wrong behaviours, why not just stay in it?

My friend Mary has four abusive half-sisters. They’ve always been abusive. However, their mother died when Mary was in her early teens and made her promise to always stay close to her sisters. No matter how they treat her she always goes crawling back to them. They’re mean, overly-critical and just horrible, shallow, nasty people. A lifetime of their treatment has given Mary depression, self-esteem and body image issues. She maintains her relationship with them until she has a mini-breakdown, at which point they tell her they were just joking, that she took things too seriously, that they actually love and accept her and they want her back. She inevitably complies and within a few weeks to a couple months the abuse begins again.

If you tell Mary they’re abusing her she’ll tell you they’re not and then tell you how much she loves her sisters and how important family is to her. Eventually she’ll bring up the promise she made to her mother. She’ll also tell you the same hogwash her sisters tell her about how it’s all her fault, she takes things too personally, takes them the wrong way, etc. No matter what, though, she won’t admit to them being abusive. She’ll also play up how much they mean to her and what a good daughter she is for sticking by her sisters.

As awful as this has been on her, now that she’s a mother it’s even worse. Her nieces are the spitting images of her sisters, especially when it comes to how abusive they are. Mary’s daughters have very few friends outside of their cousins (they all live within 20 minutes of one another). Whenever they complain to Mary about the way their cousins are treating them, she tells them they’re wrong, that they’re mistaken or that they’re bringing it on themselves. Her older daughter is a complete introvert, acts like a scared puppy and is afraid to make friends. Her younger daughter has an eating problem and pulls her hair out in big clumps when she gets really upset (which is pretty often).

Mary doesn’t see a problem with any of this and believes they’re all one big happy family.

Granted, the above is problematic but Mary’s denial extends to a lot more than just her sisters. She’ll go into denial about anything that upsets her or makes her feel uncomfortable, whether it’s advice from her doctor, the way she looks, the disastrous results of a project she’s doing around the house, etc. It makes her kids and her husband miserable. Some of the stuff may just be an annoyance to others, but when you have to live with someone who refuses to face reality on a consistent basis, that’s a huge problem.

 

[Reepicheep]

The word ‘denial’ has more than one meaning.

1. Denial- the act of denying/saying no to an assertion. “Yes, you said that John stole your wallet. No, I do not believe that John stole your wallet.”
   There may be good reason to think John is guilty. There may be good reason to think John is innocent.
   In this example ‘denial’ is simply the act of saying no when someone else has said yes.
2. Denial- the psychological state of self-deception, in which someone refuses to admit an unpleasant truth to himself, about himself.

“I don’t have a drinking problem. My family are just being picky about things. Yes, I admit I drank a little too much last Saturday, but that was just once”–when the truth is the speaker was blind, staggering drunk on Saturday, and gets drunk every weekend.

“That woman is* tempting *me! She wears that skimpy clothing, and she flirts with me *all the time!” *-- when the truth is the woman does no such thing. The speaker is desperate to convince himself he’s a good and virtuous man, and can’t possibly be guilty of the sin of lust.

The problem arises that sometimes people interpret Denial (1) as being Denial (2).

 

[SuperLuigi]

Agreed, they are not the best examples. I guess I am just wondering what is so wrong with denial? If it does not cause the person to have wrong behaviours, why not just stay in it?

I think to some extent being in denial is a contribution to the cultural rot of modern societies.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Denial is an emotional tool or coping mechanism which is sometimes harmful and sometimes beneficial. It can allow people to survive otherwise unbearable emotional pain or give them time to process painful emotional events in a more manageable manner.

Unfortunately, many people use it as a coping mechanism when experiencing childhood abuse / trauma and it is integrated as part of their regular emotional toolbox as it were and can lead to ongoing negative effects in their adult relationships.

That said, people are people and there are things we all have in our lives that we choose not to deal with that others may interpret as us being in denial about, but in reality is just a normal personality trait.

Thanks for the topic.

 

[Anglewannabe]

My friend Mary has four abusive half-sisters. They’ve always been abusive. However, their mother died when Mary was in her early teens and made her promise to always stay close to her sisters. No matter how they treat her she always goes crawling back to them. They’re mean, overly-critical and just horrible, shallow, nasty people. A lifetime of their treatment has given Mary depression, self-esteem and body image issues. She maintains her relationship with them until she has a mini-breakdown, at which point they tell her they were just joking, that she took things too seriously, that they actually love and accept her and they want her back. She inevitably complies and within a few weeks to a couple months the abuse begins again.
live with someone who refuses to face reality on a consistent basis, that’s a huge problem.

Well… time to confess. The reason I posted about a general discussion is because I wanted to feel things out before posing my real question.

I have an abusive brother who probably would fit in great with Mary’s sisters. There is a lady at work that I get along with. We often talk. She asks about my family and how often I see my brother. I ended up telling her that he is abusive so I cut ties with him 10 years ago. The last time I saw him was at my dad’s funeral and all he did was scream his head off at me in a restaurant which confirmed my decision was right.

Her response ‘Angie, you are such a wonderful person I have trouble believing your brother who grew up in the same household could be like that’. I felt slapped in the face, like all the years of abuse I suffered were ‘no big deal’. So I try to politely change the subject by making a joke ‘He was adopted’ (which he was). Well, a discussion got going about how in her opinion since he was adopted as a baby, it doesn’t matter and we were both brought up in the same house so she has trouble believe he is cruel. And I made the point we don’t know what abusive atmosphere his biological mother was in while pregnant with him and that would affect him. She whole heartily disagreed

Then she wouldn’t let it go so I said ‘Are you saying I am a liar?’

To which she said ‘I like to see the good in people and I never met him so I don’t know what is true’

To which I said ‘so you think I am lying’

She said ‘No I just don’t believe it’ If she doesn’t believe me then doesn’t that imply I am lying.

Then she said ‘I know what you mean, me and my brother haven’t talked for a year, but I got an invitation to his wedding so I am going’. In the back of my mind I was thinking I respect her decision to see her brother why can’t she respect mine

So, that lead me to my original question. I am suspecting that maybe (and this is a maybe) she knows deep down her brother is abusive yet does not want to face it and my strength to see reality and do what is best for me is threatening her denial.

 

[Allegra]

Your coworker’s comments were completely inappropriate. Obviously, she’s never had to deal with an abusive family member, or should wouldn’t say such things. Even if she hasn’t had the misfortune, she isn’t being logical. If she truly thinks that you are such a kind and loving person, then it doesn’t make sense for her to assert that you would flippantly cut off ties with your own brother for no reason. It may be that she is projecting her own family issues on you. Or she could just be a jerk who likes to passive-aggressively pick at the emotional wounds of others. Who knows. I doubt it’s a case of just denial. People in denial don’t regularly feel the need to project their own problems on others. In fact, it’s probably more common for them to look at others and say, “Oh, wow! Her brother is REALLY abusive! I guess mine isn’t so bad after all.”

 

[pensmama87]

Your coworker’s comments were completely inappropriate. Obviously, she’s never had to deal with an abusive family member, or should wouldn’t say such things. Even if she hasn’t had the misfortune, she isn’t being logical. If she truly thinks that you are such a kind and loving person, then it doesn’t make sense for her to assert that you would flippantly cut off ties with your own brother for no reason. It may be that she is projecting her own family issues on you. Or she could just be a jerk who likes to passive-aggressively pick at the emotional wounds of others. Who knows. I doubt it’s a case of just denial. People in denial don’t regularly feel the need to project their own problems on others. In fact, it’s probably more common for them to look at others and say, “Oh, wow! Her brother is REALLY abusive! I guess mine isn’t so bad after all.”

Right. It’s rarely productive to try to psychoanalyze people to figure out why they do the wacky things they do. This woman is a coworker and she doesn’t know your life. Now you know not to discuss personal stuff with her. If your brother comes up in work conversation again, you could be vague about it - “Oh, we don’t talk much,” for instance - and if people push just say, “Thanks, but that’s between him and me” until they drop it. You don’t owe anybody explanations.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Your coworker’s comments were completely inappropriate.

Thank you that makes me feel more sane than before

Obviously, she’s never had to deal with an abusive family member, or should wouldn’t say such things.

umm… I don’t want to uncharitably gossip so I won’t give details but she has told me about things her dad did that just are not OK. That’s why I was suspecting perhaps she secretly admired my strength to walk away from a family member

Even if she hasn’t had the misfortune, she isn’t being logical. If she truly thinks that you are such a kind and loving person, then it doesn’t make sense for her to assert that you would flippantly cut off ties with your own brother for no reason. It may be that she is projecting her own family issues on you. Or she could just be a jerk who likes to passive-aggressively pick at the emotional wounds of others.

I think the ‘illogical person’ conclusion is more accurate. Even though the girl sitting beside her overheard and took her side. I feel quite confident saying she is not trying to be a jerk

Who knows. I doubt it’s a case of just denial. People in denial don’t regularly feel the need to project their own problems on others. In fact, it’s probably more common for them to look at others and say, “Oh, wow! Her brother is REALLY abusive! I guess mine isn’t so bad after all.”

Good point, thanks for pointing it out

 

[Anglewannabe]

. If your brother comes up in work conversation again, you could be vague about it - “Oh, we don’t talk much,” for instance - and if people push just say, “Thanks, but that’s between him and me” until they drop it. You don’t owe anybody explanations.

Good suggestion. Hopefully next time in the heat of the moment I will remember it

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Well… time to confess. The reason I posted about a general discussion is because I wanted to feel things out before posing my real question.

I have an abusive brother who probably would fit in great with Mary’s sisters. There is a lady at work that I get along with. We often talk. She asks about my family and how often I see my brother. I ended up telling her that he is abusive so I cut ties with him 10 years ago. The last time I saw him was at my dad’s funeral and all he did was scream his head off at me in a restaurant which confirmed my decision was right.

Her response ‘Angie, you are such a wonderful person I have trouble believing your brother who grew up in the same household could be like that’. I felt slapped in the face, like all the years of abuse I suffered were ‘no big deal’. So I try to politely change the subject by making a joke ‘He was adopted’ (which he was). Well, a discussion got going about how in her opinion since he was adopted as a baby, it doesn’t matter and we were both brought up in the same house so she has trouble believe he is cruel. And I made the point we don’t know what abusive atmosphere his biological mother was in while pregnant with him and that would affect him. She whole heartily disagreed

Then she wouldn’t let it go so I said ‘Are you saying I am a liar?’

To which she said ‘I like to see the good in people and I never met him so I don’t know what is true’

To which I said ‘so you think I am lying’

She said ‘No I just don’t believe it’ If she doesn’t believe me then doesn’t that imply I am lying.

Then she said ‘I know what you mean, me and my brother haven’t talked for a year, but I got an invitation to his wedding so I am going’. In the back of my mind I was thinking I respect her decision to see her brother why can’t she respect mine

So, that lead me to my original question. I am suspecting that maybe (and this is a maybe) she knows deep down her brother is abusive yet does not want to face it and my strength to see reality and do what is best for me is threatening her denial.

Mary tends to behave the same way as your coworker, depending on the situation. While she’ll sometimes recognize the abuse in what others tell her, most of the time she sides with the abuser and tells the person being abused that they’re wrong, they can’t be telling the truth, etc. It’s particularly bad when she’s dealing with people who are also mistreated by her sisters. She has a cousin who cut ties with pretty much their entire family except Mary because of the sisters. I’ve been around them when they talk about it and it’s fairly crazy. Mary will acknowledge the things her sisters have done but then tells her cousin that she just needs to be more understanding or she’ll defend her sisters and come up with all sorts of harebrained, convoluted explanations to defend them. One of the craziest was when her cousin brought up an instance of them attacking her on Facebook, referring to her, her husband and her children by name. Mary defended them by saying the cousin was mistaken and that her sisters were talking about another woman by the same name they know whose husband and children, by some odd coincidence, all have the same name as the cousin’s.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well… time to confess. The reason I posted about a general discussion is because I wanted to feel things out before posing my real question.

I have an abusive brother who probably would fit in great with Mary’s sisters. There is a lady at work that I get along with. We often talk. She asks about my family and how often I see my brother. I ended up telling her that he is abusive so I cut ties with him 10 years ago. The last time I saw him was at my dad’s funeral and all he did was scream his head off at me in a restaurant which confirmed my decision was right.

Her response ‘Angie, you are such a wonderful person I have trouble believing your brother who grew up in the same household could be like that’. I felt slapped in the face, like all the years of abuse I suffered were ‘no big deal’. So I try to politely change the subject by making a joke ‘He was adopted’ (which he was). Well, a discussion got going about how in her opinion since he was adopted as a baby, it doesn’t matter and we were both brought up in the same house so she has trouble believe he is cruel. And I made the point we don’t know what abusive atmosphere his biological mother was in while pregnant with him and that would affect him. She whole heartily disagreed

Then she wouldn’t let it go so I said ‘Are you saying I am a liar?’

To which she said ‘I like to see the good in people and I never met him so I don’t know what is true’

To which I said ‘so you think I am lying’

She said ‘No I just don’t believe it’ If she doesn’t believe me then doesn’t that imply I am lying.

Then she said ‘I know what you mean, me and my brother haven’t talked for a year, but I got an invitation to his wedding so I am going’. In the back of my mind I was thinking I respect her decision to see her brother why can’t she respect mine

So, that lead me to my original question. I am suspecting that maybe (and this is a maybe) she knows deep down her brother is abusive yet does not want to face it and my strength to see reality and do what is best for me is threatening her denial.

She may think that she’s not calling you a liar because she believes it is fully possible you are telling the truth as you perceive it and yet you’re not correct in some objective sense. The issue isn’t whether she’s right about that or that she’s in denial. The issue is that you’re giving her all the social landing lights in the world and she’s repeatedly missed the runway.

You don’t have to diagnose her. You just have to make a mental note that she does not have the perception required to be included in that select circle with whom you discuss the sensitive topic of your family of origin issues.

“Thanks for saying I’m wonderful, that is very kind of you. I think perhaps I should not have been so frank about why I don’t have any contact with my brother. I had no intention to start a conversation about it, and I’m sorry if I implied that I did. It isn’t up for discussion.” If she also contradicts you on that point, you say: “As I said: It is not up for discussion.” Then don’t discuss it any more.

You don’t have to have a diagnosis about why some certain person isn’t included in your select circle of people with whom you discuss a certain topic. That’s an earned position. When someone ought to be included, the argument will make itself. If someone starts to make a case for why you ought to open up to them, just tell them you are a private person. The only person who really deserves that spot is your spouse, and even then your self-disclosure isn’t going to be absolute all of the time. The best people for self-disclosure are those who respect your innermost privacy and let you disclose yourself as you see fit, not as they see fit. (A professional you called in because you have decided you need help in developing coping skills and self-awareness could be an exception, but that is above my pay grade.)

This is just my opinion, but the less we trouble ourselves with defending why someone is not included in such a sensitive position, the more serene we will be. If no one ever makes the grade, seek a professional’s opinion. If one person does, be careful you don’t wear that person out, especially when you go through rough spots. If two people do, let alone three or four, that’s far better than par. Treat all those precious people like gold. Leave the other people out of the most sensitive loop, and don’t give that protection of your privacy a second thought.

 

[EasterJoy]

Right. It’s rarely productive to try to psychoanalyze people to figure out why they do the wacky things they do. This woman is a coworker and she doesn’t know your life. Now you know not to discuss personal stuff with her. If your brother comes up in work conversation again, you could be vague about it - “Oh, we don’t talk much,” for instance - and if people push just say, “Thanks, but that’s between him and me” until they drop it. You don’t owe anybody explanations.

On the money, and so succinct!

 

[underacloud]

Her response ‘Angie, you are such a wonderful person I have trouble believing your brother who grew up in the same household could be like that’.

What a nice compliment.

Then she wouldn’t let it go so I said ‘Are you saying I am a liar?’

To which she said ‘I like to see the good in people and I never met him so I don’t know what is true’

It is good to try to see the good in people.

And she has never met him.

To which I said ‘so you think I am lying’

She said ‘No I just don’t believe it’ If she doesn’t believe me then doesn’t that imply I am lying.

Then she said ‘I know what you mean, me and my brother haven’t talked for a year, but I got an invitation to his wedding so I am going’. In the back of my mind I was thinking I respect her decision to see her brother why can’t she respect mine.

Here I think she is doing a few things:

A) letting you know that she thinks what you are saying is just one side of the story and that our own perceptions of events are often flawed. This is not the same as calling someone a liar.
B) agreeing with you anyway that such family relationships are fraught.
C) trying to be a peacemaker and offering an example from her own life that may encourage you to make peace with your brother if possible.

Now much of this may be misguided, and you may feel it is unsolicited advice and socially inappropriate. Then again, the topic was open for conversation and it is arguably a mark of her respect for your friendship that she felt she could be quite frank with you.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

 

[EasterJoy]

]…Then again, the topic was open for conversation and it is arguably a mark of her respect for your friendship that she felt she could be quite frank with you.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

To openly disbelieve someone who repeatedly asserts that it is very possible for a nice person to have a sociopath or a psychopath for a sibling and that the nice person in question has one of them and has cut off contact not for light reasons but for serious violations of trust is not being a “peacemaker.” The first expression of surprise might be an expression of trust, but there gets to be a point where contradicting someone who is disclosing herself to you is anything but respectful. If anything, it is quite arrogant.

Her blunt contradictions of the OP may have been well-meant, that is very possible, but that doesn’t mean she must have been contradictory out of excess of virtue.

The OP deserves an apology, but in the interest of being a peacemaker herself she would do well to pass over the likelihood that she will ever get one. Until the woman in question shows that she would be unlikely to do the same thing again, the OP should not trust her with this kind of private information. I don’t mean to hold any vindictive feelings about it or to impute some hidden bad motive or anything like that, but simply to take it as a gauge of the woman’s capacity as a supportive listener. Live and learn.

 

[underacloud]

The first expression of surprise might be an expression of trust, but there gets to be a point where contradicting someone who is disclosing herself to you is anything but respectful.

Right…which is why this friend/colleague backed off and said “I know what you mean”.

Maybe she was or maybe she wasn’t trying to be a peacemaker - it is a possibility.

The OP deserves an apology

I’ll point out that we have only heard Angie’s account of this event; there may or may not be more to it.

Until the woman in question shows that she would be unlikely to do the same thing again, the OP should not trust her with this kind of private information. I don’t mean to hold any vindictive feelings about it or to impute some hidden bad motive or anything like that, but simply to take it as a gauge of the woman’s capacity as a supportive listener. Live and learn.

Angie - the op here - has a history of taking offense at what others have said to her, especially in the complex world of workplace social interactions. But yes, she should avoid discussions of a person nature if such discussions cause her frustration.

 

[Anglewannabe]

What a nice compliment…

Since this woman says that to everyone, it takes away some of the compliment. And it also could easily be seen as a back handed compliment

It is good to try to see the good in people.

And she has never met him…

Standing on their own, those are true statements but to say ‘I like to see the good in someone’ immediately after being told they were abusive to me is like saying I deserved the abuse

Here I think she is doing a few things:

A) letting you know that she thinks what you are saying is just one side of the story and that our own perceptions of events are often flawed. This is not the same as calling someone a liar…

She has spend enough time around me to know my character so if she thinks I would exaggerate the extent of the abuse I suffered, she is saying that I don’t have a good perspective which is insulting and untrue

B) agreeing with you anyway that such family relationships are fraught.

No she was saying that because she is going to her brothers wedding, I need to spend time with my brother

C) trying to be a peacemaker and offering an example from her own life that may encourage you to make peace with your brother if possible…

She never told me why her and her brother have not talked for over a year so for all I know her brother is the one who decide to cut the contact. Secondly, if she really wanted me to make peace with my brother she should have said something like ‘Give me his number I will call him and tell him to quit abusing you’. I know that statement is far fetched but it was to make my point. She would have recognized that I can not change an abuser and she would not have put all of the responsibility on me to fix an abusive person

Now much of this may be misguided, and you may feel it is unsolicited advice and socially inappropriate.  Then again, the topic was open for conversation and it is arguably a mark of her respect for your friendship that she felt she could be quite frank with you.

.

Perhaps it was a mark of respect, but there was not much respect in her blatant refusal to consider that I have a point of view and the possibility exist that it is the best course of action to just not have contact with my brother.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Right…which is why this friend/colleague backed off and said “I know what you mean”…

First off she does not know what I mean because I cut contact over 10 years ago and she only didn’t speak for 1 year. Also, she obviously feels safe enough to go to her brothers wedding so she does NOT know how scary it is for me to go near my brother. And she was not backing off, she was trying to use that to get me to change my mind

Maybe she was or maybe she wasn’t trying to be a peacemaker - it is a possibility…

She obviously wasn’t trying to be a peacemaker with me that day

I’ll point out that we have only heard Angie’s account of this event; there may or may not be more to it…

Asking me any question that you feel could she light on the conversation and I will give an honest answer

Angie - the op here - has a history of taking offense at what others have said to her, especially in the complex world of workplace social interactions…

EasterJoy hs responded to several of those post so I think she is aware of how I am

But yes, she should avoid discussions of a person nature if such discussions cause her frustration.

Well, that is the problem. This woman has a strong personality and she often catches me with my guard down. The first time, the way it happened I told her I went to visit my mom (who lives 400 miles away) and she asked if I had siblings. So I said I had a brother. Then she said did you see him to which I said no. When she asked where he lived and I answered, she knew that town was only a 10 minute drive from my mom’s. So she said ‘why not’ After repeating a few times ‘I just didn’t’ instead of taking the hint she kept asking and making a funny face in disbelief until I did not know how to handle to so I caved and said ‘We don’t talk’.

In a sense, the woman can take the social cue that I am trying to politely change the topic