Denial - general discussion

[pensmama87]

I don’t think I misjudged what she said at all. Because if she was a friend worth having, she wouldn’t have insisted so much that she was right. She would have said something more along the lines 'Well, let’s just not talk about your brother.

The thing is, it’s your boundary, not hers, so you need to be the one to enforce it, and again you don’t need to give a reason. You can be the one to say, “Well, let’s just not talk about my brother.” Yes, it would be wise and compassionate for her to have more regard for your feelings. But once you’ve established that she isn’t aware/doesn’t care, I don’t think it’s wise to invite her further in by discussing how hurt you are. That might work for an intimate relationship like a spouse, family member, or close friend, but not a coworker.

 

[underacloud]

I don’t think I misjudged what she said at all. Because if she was a friend worth having, she wouldn’t have insisted so much that she was right. She would have said something more along the lines 'Well, let’s just not talk about your brother.

Yes, if she was a friend worth having she might say something like “I know what you mean”…which she did.

And I honestly don’t understand what you mean by ‘I misjudge her regard for my friendship’. Are you saying she use to think I was a good friend? or a bad friend?

I suspect she enjoyed your friendship and felt she could be open and honest with you. But you found that to be rude. That’s a shame.

I don’t feel she is out to get me. I think she is oblivious to the unpleasant effect her behavior can have on others and refuses to consider the possibility she could soften her approach.

If I really though she was out to get me, I would not act like nothing happened at the photocopier.

As I said, as a one off it would be easier to agree with you. But your taking offence at what others say to you is a continued pattern. Maybe you’re very unlucky and meet a lot more rude people than the rest of us? Or maybe you need to ask how you might be able to deal with these issues better?

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, if she was a friend worth having she might say something like “I know what you mean”…which she did.

I suspect she enjoyed your friendship and felt she could be open and honest with you. But you found that to be rude. That’s a shame.

As I said, as a one off it would be easier to agree with you. But your taking offence at what others say to you is a continued pattern. Maybe you’re very unlucky and meet a lot more rude people than the rest of us? Or maybe you need to ask how you might be able to deal with these issues better?

No. When someone tells you that you hurt her feelings in how you handled her disclosures about her family situation and you are arrogant enough to argue with her about it, that is not being “open and honest.” If you have Miss Manners looking over the top of her glasses at you and saying, “I beg your pardon?” you have crossed a line that friends do not cross when they are being good friends. Friends, when they are being good friends, respect the line between the business their friends want feedback about and the business they don’t.

The OP’s boundaries are not unreasonable. The only thing she needs to do is stop trying to get Lucy to agree with her point of view. She just needs to learn what topics one does and does not talk to Lucy about, because Lucy has shown that she can’t be trusted with emotionally sensitive information.

It is possible to be friends with people who have to be right all the time. You have to make allowances for that fault, but with some generosity it can be done. It is something for all of us. That’s what makes the world go around. That doesn’t mean that having to be right even when it comes to how someone else manages her own family issues is OK.

 

[underacloud]

EasterJoy, you are familiar with Angie’s posting history, yes?

Like I’ve said, as a one off I’d be more inclined to understand her perspective. But Angie has many of these such issues. Many of them in many different contexts. In short, I firmly believe that Angie misreads people. Angie finds people to be rude and even cruel far too often to think that her perspectives ought to be believed at face value.

And IMO good friends do sometimes cross boundaries.

 

[Anglewannabe]

The thing is, it’s your boundary, not hers, so you need to be the one to enforce it, and again you don’t need to give a reason.
.

Yes, I understand that

Yes, it would be wise and compassionate for her to have more regard for your feelings. But once you’ve established that she isn’t aware/doesn’t care, I don’t think it’s wise to invite her further in by discussing how hurt you are. .

The problem is, whenever I am around her, I find it REALLY hard to not divulge personal things. She is just one of those people who always catches me off guard. That is what I need to work on

 

[Anglewannabe]

No. When someone tells you that you hurt her feelings in how you handled her disclosures about her family situation and you are arrogant enough to argue with her about it, that is not being “open and honest.” If you have Miss Manners looking over the top of her glasses at you and saying, “I beg your pardon?” you have crossed a line that friends do not cross when they are being good friends. Friends, when they are being good friends, respect the line between the business their friends want feedback about and the business they don’t.

The OP’s boundaries are not unreasonable. The only thing she needs to do is stop trying to get Lucy to agree with her point of view. She just needs to learn what topics one does and does not talk to Lucy about, because Lucy has shown that she can’t be trusted with emotionally sensitive information.

It is possible to be friends with people who have to be right all the time. You have to make allowances for that fault, but with some generosity it can be done. It is something for all of us. That’s what makes the world go around. That doesn’t mean that having to be right even when it comes to how someone else manages her own family issues is OK.

Thanks you

 

[Anglewannabe]

And IMO good friends do sometimes cross boundaries.

Agree. However, good friends also listen when they are being told they crossed a boundary and apologize

 

[Anglewannabe]

Yes, if she was a friend worth having she might say something like “I know what you mean”…which she did.

That wasn’t very friendly because she gave an example that could not even begin to compare and that is minimizing what I went through

I suspect she enjoyed your friendship and felt she could be open and honest with you. But you found that to be rude. That’s a shame.

OK, thanks for explaining what you meant

As I said, as a one off it would be easier to agree with you. But your taking offence at what others say to you is a continued pattern. Maybe you’re very unlucky and meet a lot more rude people than the rest of us? Or maybe you need to ask how you might be able to deal with these issues better?

Did the thought ever occur to you that is why I post these things? To learn how to deal with these things not to be told to get back in the cage with the lion

Angie

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy, you are familiar with Angie’s posting history, yes?

Like I’ve said, as a one off I’d be more inclined to understand her perspective. But Angie has many of these such issues. Many of them in many different contexts. In short, I firmly believe that Angie misreads people. Angie finds people to be rude and even cruel far too often to think that her perspectives ought to be believed at face value.

And IMO good friends do sometimes cross boundaries.

I don’t see what her posting history has to do with it. After all, you are not saying, are you, that rude people deserve to have their way even more with overly sensitive people than they do with everyone else? You and I both know, don’t we, that gracious people are more careful with the feelings of the sensitive than with those who are unlikely to take offense and likely to stick up for themselves without a qualm when they do?

Yes, sometimes good friends do sometimes cross boundaries, but “good fences make good neighbors,” too. The right to privacy, even among friends, is too easily dismissed these days, particularly by those who make it a hobby to (unmercifully) keep nothing of their own private and to invade the privacy of others. If you have not had the bad luck to work with someone like that, you may not know what it is like to work around that kind of constant and shameless violation of boundaries.

When you are told you are trespassing, you ought to have the respect and good grace to skedaddle back over to your side. It isn’t that hard and it isn’t too much to ask.

 

[underacloud]

Did the thought ever occur to you that is why I post these things? To learn how to deal with these things not to be told to get back in the cage with the lion

Angie

Yes, I presume that is why you post. And that’s why I often try to present a possible explanation of behaviour that you interpret as rude but perhaps is more friendly and caring than you perceive. I believe the issue is not simply how to deal with such situations, but whether your perception of the situation is correct in the first place.

 

[underacloud]

I don’t see what her posting history has to do with it. After all, you are not saying, are you, that rude people deserve to have their way even more with overly sensitive people than they do with everyone else?

Her posting history is very relevant, which I feel I’ve explained.

I’m not saying that rude people deserve to ride roughshod over others - I’m challenging Angie’s perception that this woman was actually rude at all (or if she was rude, was she so rude as to discontinue the friendship?). Keep in mind that you and I only have Angie’s description of events to go on, not an actual transcript of what exactly was said.

If Angie puts up boundaries every time she has an issue like this (which is why posting history is relevant) she will socially wall herself in. That can be very detrimental both personally and professionally.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I’m not saying that rude people deserve to ride roughshod over others - I’m challenging Angie’s perception that this woman was actually rude at all (or if she was rude, was she so rude as to discontinue the friendship?). Keep in mind that you and I only have Angie’s description of events to go on, not an actual transcript of what exactly was said…

Whoa ! Wait a minute. If you read my posts you will see that I asked her how we can come to a solution and both be able to express out opinions without feeling contradicted. ‘Lucy’ said she though it would be best not to be friends. I have been acting like nothing happened. ‘Lucy’ has been avoiding me

 

[underacloud]

Whoa ! Wait a minute. If you read my posts you will see that I asked her how we can come to a solution and both be able to express out opinions without feeling contradicted. ‘Lucy’ said she though it would be best not to be friends. I have been acting like nothing happened. ‘Lucy’ has been avoiding me

I would bet she made that comment without expecting you to agree with it. I would bet she thought you were being unreasonable and threw this out there as an absurd solution to your disagreement so that you could see how you’d backed her into a corner.

Again, I don’t know what specifically was said or how it was said. But it seems like she is sad now, doesn’t it? What does that tell you?

 

[EasterJoy]

Her posting history is very relevant, which I feel I’ve explained.

I’m not saying that rude people deserve to ride roughshod over others - I’m challenging Angie’s perception that this woman was actually rude at all (or if she was rude, was she so rude as to discontinue the friendship?). Keep in mind that you and I only have Angie’s description of events to go on, not an actual transcript of what exactly was said.

If Angie puts up boundaries every time she has an issue like this (which is why posting history is relevant) she will socially wall herself in. That can be very detrimental both personally and professionally.

Let us confine ourselves to the specific question on this specific thread. Do you really think that someone is going to be a social outcast because she does not want friends at work or anywhere else who butt in and tell her how to handle her own family?

I ask because most people I know would think the know-it-all is the person they’re going to avoid socially, not the person who merely asks to be left alone about how she handles her family. Now–she does have to learn that she cannot go on and on about it and expect nothing but “there there” ad nauseum, but in this case at least she did not do that. She mentioned she had a brother, admitted that they did not talk, and The Psychiatrist was In, and 5 cents please, whether Angie wanted it or not. (Of course all bets are off if the reality was nothing like that.)

On the professional side, are you telling me it is personally and professionally detrimental to draw a line and tell your co-worker that you don’t want to discuss your family of origin? I don’t mean bluntly telling her that she is an ignorant busybody who needs to learn to keep her mouth shut. I mean citing a right to privacy and declining to discuss your private life with her while refraining from making comments about her personal choices and private life, too.

Please tell me you aren’t serious.

The behavior that could be detrimental to the OP’s professional life with regards to her other co-workers is her failure to cut this busybody off and instead going around and around trying to convince her that she’s wrong, subjecting everyone else to these painful and pointless arguments. She does not want everyone else they work with to roll their eyes and run for the hills every time Angie and Lucy start talking about Angie’s personal life. She needs to politely but firmly change the subject, which is probably what all the people in her office with a reputation as reliable professionals do. They probably won’t tell her what she ought to do, but they’ll be thinking it: Please, please, please, don’t even try with her…because if you don’t get her going on stuff like that, she’s not that bad…

Angie, I would bet good money this is why no one else present ever jumps in with their two bits. Been there. Done that. Don’t try to teach a pig to sing. You just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig. Oh, and you might make the chickens stop laying, too.

 

[underacloud]

Sure, if we treat this post in isolation and on face value, we’d no doubt agree that Angie should set strong boundaries and avoid this woman.

But if we treat each and every thread from Angie in the same way, she just cuts more and more people out of her social circle. That’s what I meant by personally and professionally detrimental - not her relationship with this one woman, but an overall pattern of similar issues.

I’m quite happy to say I could be completely wrong in defending this woman. But that’s not really the point. The point was to present an alternative possible account. Each time Angie has such an issue, she needs to try to see other possibilities, other perspectives.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I would bet she made that comment without expecting you to agree with it. I would bet she thought you were being unreasonable and threw this out there as an absurd solution to your disagreement so that you could see how you’d backed her into a corner.

I can only go by what she says. It sounded to me like she was setting a boundary that she did not want to be my friend. So I respected it calmly so as to not escalate into an argument. And honestly, if in the heat of the moment she said something she did not mean and I am acting like nothing happened, I think it is her option to retract what she said.

Just curious but when she said ‘It is best we don’t be friend’ what else was I suppose to do?

Again, I don’t know what specifically was said or how it was said. But it seems like she is sad now, doesn’t it? What does that tell you?

Well, perhaps she is sad because SHE no longer wants to be my friend. However, if she always has a way of backing me into a corner where in the heat of the moment I blurt out personal stuff I wish I never said, then too bad for her, she can not do that.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I’m quite happy to say I could be completely wrong in defending this woman. But that’s not really the point. The point was to present an alternative possible account. Each time Angie has such an issue, she needs to try to see other possibilities, other perspectives.

So in other words, if you are wrong in defending this woman, because I so often have issues, I need to get back into the cage with the lion?

If she was a friend worth having, she would have been open to a discussion about how to work it out. She would have realized that I was not out to change her mentality to see the good in everyone. I was simply asking for a bit of consideration in her timing and right after I said my brother was abusive was not the tasteful time to say she wanted to see the good in him

 

[underacloud]

So in other words, if you are wrong in defending this woman, because I so often have issues, I need to get back into the cage with the lion?

No, I am just encouraging you to try to see things from the other’s perspective. You may still decide that this friendship isn’t for you. Or you may decide that it’s worth another try.

You may even find that having friends in your life who challenge you is a very healthy thing. Or maybe you don’t want to have such friends. That is your choice.

But why the lion analogy? Is an awkward social interaction really so devastating for you? Do you feel that you couldn’t give this woman one last chance at friendship lest it permanently scars you?

 

[EasterJoy]

So in other words, if you are wrong in defending this woman, because I so often have issues, I need to get back into the cage with the lion?

If she was a friend worth having, she would have been open to a discussion about how to work it out. She would have realized that I was not out to change her mentality to see the good in everyone. I was simply asking for a bit of consideration in her timing and right after I said my brother was abusive was not the tasteful time to say she wanted to see the good in him

Time to learn a lesson: You made your point. She’s having none of it. Move on.
We’ve all three gone about three turns on this beyond what was necessary. Time to call it pax, eh what?

Learn to do this at work, too. Look around at the people who get on the best with everyone. It is what they do. Professionals save battle gear for a few consciously-chosen professional battles, and even then there is a certain code of chivalry about it with your closest colleagues. With other things, they keep their cool and allow others get wound up if they want to. As my grandfather used to say, it takes two to have a quarrel. People who have learned peace give advice when it is asked for, bite their tongues when it is not, and once they’ve given advice away they let others take it or leave it, as they see fit. (Which is why people are willing to ask their advice.)

You can have serenity or you can worry about people seeing things your way. You cannot have both. When you just can’t agree with someone, commend them to God, ask the same mercy for both of you, and ask for the grace to let it go. Look at them fine the next day, it is OK. Just put this topic in with politics and whatever else is better left alone with most of our nearest and dearest. It may drive them crazy until they get used to you, but it is within your power to peacefully just let it go and ignore them. You have the authority to make your own choices. You don’t have to give them the power to dispute your choices with you.

It goes under the category of the Serenity Prayer:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
forever in the next.
Amen.

 

[EasterJoy]

Sure, if we treat this post in isolation and on face value, we’d no doubt agree that Angie should set strong boundaries and avoid this woman.

But if we treat each and every thread from Angie in the same way, she just cuts more and more people out of her social circle. That’s what I meant by personally and professionally detrimental - not her relationship with this one woman, but an overall pattern of similar issues.

I’m quite happy to say I could be completely wrong in defending this woman. But that’s not really the point. The point was to present an alternative possible account. Each time Angie has such an issue, she needs to try to see other possibilities, other perspectives.

Just to clarify: I didn’t say she ought to avoid this woman. That may not even be possible, even if it were it probably adds unnecessary drama, and besides, the OP may get along with her OK and even enjoy her if she just marks where the sinkholes are and avoids the spots. IOW, she ought to avoid making this woman into a confidante. The OP has things she wants in a confidante, and no matter who is right or wrong, Lucy totally disagrees. It doesn’t matter who is “right” or “wrong.” The confidences belong to the OP, to talk about or not as she sees fit. The OP ought to withhold her confidences and, when she slips, just let Lucy say what she has to say and let it drop. (She does not have to thank her for unsolicited opinions. Just let them drop.)

In the OPs place, I would also not advise others to avoid confiding in this woman. Others might like her slant on things, so let them decide for themselves without prejudice coming from you. Just give the general advice that if someone doesn’t work as a confidante for you, stop confiding in them. It doesn’t matter if the person is Dr. Phil himself. If he doesn’t work for you, find someone else.

Good luck, OP!