Denial of Purgatory

[RJames]

I believe the correct method is the one the Bible gives - approach the priest FIRST. Talk to him, and try your best to show him the Truth. It may be he is simply doubting the “fire” portion of the Latin teaching on Purgatory - which is perfectly fine. Find out exactly what it is about the doctrine that he is doubting. There is a portion about the Latin teaching on Purgatory that is dogmatized. However, there is also a portion that is NOT dogmatized - it is OK to doubt this latter part.

Whatever the case, be more discerning, and judge with right judgment.

Blessings,
Marduk

The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishments due to sins, enter purgatory.

This purgatorium is a cleansing fire. That is certain. Even a denial of this element of purgatory is an error that touches on the very substance of the dogma.

That this purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment is certain as well. It is erroneous and mortally sinful to deny these doctrines.

 

[palmas85]

I think you are underestimating the gravity of the sin of heresy and the gravity of the public crime of heresy. Why can’t the faithful cast out a heretic and then wait for his replacement?

The real tragedy here is the inaction of those in charge. I guess one can move to a different parish, but what about the others left behind?

I do not underestimate it at all, but I asked what can you do? Tar and feather the Priest? Throw him out, occupy the building and demand a new Priest that suits the congregation? The Church doesn’t operate that way.

 

[RJames]

I do not underestimate it at all, but I asked what can you do? Tar and feather the Priest? Throw him out, occupy the building and demand a new Priest that suits the congregation? The Church doesn’t operate that way.

I think you do underestimate it; that’s why you feel comfortable allowing it to flourish all around you while waiting for someone to rescue you. What about the children who will learn heresy at a young age by a priest who you’ve taught them to respect?

 

[eelpis]

Yes the denial of purgatory constitutes heresy. But there is no heresy in saying that purgatory is not a location.

 

[RyanML]

This purgatorium is a cleansing fire. That is certain. Even a denial of this element of purgatory is an error that touches on the very substance of the dogma.

That this purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment is certain as well. It is erroneous and mortally sinful to deny these doctrines.

Where does the Church teach ***de fide *** that the “fires” of Purgatory are corporeal?

 

[palmas85]

I think you do underestimate it; that’s why you feel comfortable allowing it to flourish all around you while waiting for someone to rescue you. What about the children who will learn heresy at a young age by a priest who you’ve taught them to respect?

I don’t really understand what you are talking about. Yes, there is error all around us and false teachers as well, just as prophesized in. 2 Peter Chapter 2. As far as children, I taught mine as well as many others, and made sure that they had orthodox traditional instruction in the faith. It was my job to ensure that.

However, short of abandoning the institutional Church or some other drastic, possibly illegal activity, I don’t see an easy solution.

What is it exactly that you are advocating?

 

[steve_b]

Where does the Church teach ***de fide ***that the “fires” of Purgatory are corporeal?

Are you asking is the fire really fire?

 

[TheDoctor]

I think you are underestimating the gravity of the sin of heresy and the gravity of the public crime of heresy. Why can’t the faithful cast out a heretic and then wait for his replacement?

Because you don’t have the authority to do so. While it is nice to talk about “our parish” or “our Priest”, he does not work for you nor did he vow obedience to you. Only your Bishop can remove him. Irate parishioners can’t, nor for that matter, can they hold on to a good Priest the Bishop wants removed.

The real tragedy here is the inaction of those in charge. I guess one can move to a different parish, but what about the others left behind?

If the Bishop has not acted, there can be only two reasons: 1) Your Bishop is in error as is your Priest, in which case the next step is up the chain to Rome. 2) Your Bishop does not think there is anything wrong with what your Priest is teaching and thinks you are in error, in which case the next step is up the chain to Rome.

 

[TheDoctor]

I think you do underestimate it; that’s why you feel comfortable allowing it to flourish all around you while waiting for someone to rescue you. What about the children who will learn heresy at a young age by a priest who you’ve taught them to respect?

Your Priest is not the primary teacher of the faith, you as the parents are. If your Priest, or CCD teacher, or Deacon, or DRE, or neighbor is teaching anything contrary to the faith it is up to you to properly instruct your children.

There is a difference between respect and blind obedience and children need to be taught this as well.

RJames, you seem to be very passionate about this issue, but I do not really understand about what exactly. It may help if you could tell us exactly what your Priest is teaching about purgatory that is in conflict with Chruch doctrine.

 

[RyanML]

Are you asking is the fire really fire?

More specifically I was asking where the Church taught that it is binding on the faithful to belive that Purgatory consists of physical fire. It is my understanding that Purgatory is a “place” or “condition” of purification and that its physical make-up, or lack thereof, is simply a matter of opinion.

 

[Genesis315]

have you personally spoken with the priest about this and offered some compassionate, charitable, and gentle fraternal correction?

 

[wcknight]

While I too believe that Purgatory is real, I question why the OP is pushing this point ? I too think he should consult the priest directly and have a friendly discussion with him.

But it bothers me as to what his real underlying agenda is, in making this point of contention. Is it to save other souls from needlessly suffering in Purgatory, if they happen to discount this doctrine, or is it to prove that he is right and the priest is wrong ?

One has its base in compassion and the other is grounded in pride.

 

[RJames]

Where does the Church teach ***de fide *** that the “fires” of Purgatory are corporeal?

Are you suggesting that only de fide doctrines are necessary for Catholics to hold? That would be a grave error in itself.

 

[Walking_Home]

While I too believe that Purgatory is real, I question why the OP is pushing this point ? I too think he should consult the priest directly and have a friendly discussion with him.

But it bothers me as to what his real underlying agenda is, in making this point of contention. Is it to save other souls from needlessly suffering in Purgatory, if they happen to discount this doctrine, or is it to prove that he is right and the priest is wrong ?

One has its base in compassion and the other is grounded in pride.

---

Heresy is not some minor transgression to be taken lightly.

 

[RJames]

While I too believe that Purgatory is real, I question why the OP is pushing this point ? I too think he should consult the priest directly and have a friendly discussion with him.

The fact is that the priest in question does not care what I think nor is he bound by any teaching of the Church. He can merely say that until he has been corrected by his superiors I should be quiet.

But it bothers me as to what his real underlying agenda is, in making this point of contention.

Heresy is not “a point of contention”, is it?

Is it to save other souls from needlessly suffering in Purgatory, if they happen to discount this doctrine, or is it to prove that he is right and the priest is wrong ?

One has its base in compassion and the other is grounded in pride.

You obviously do not place much importance on sound doctrine. What does it matter if young children are taught heresy? And then you accuse me of pride in opposing heresy? It is not pride that opposes heresy, it is a humility based in filial fear.

Let me ask you, what other doctrines might fall away in a mind that has been taught that the Church is wrong about purgatory or at best it doesn’t matter?

 

[Genesis315]

You are making a lot of accusations as to this priest’s obstinance and malice and yet as far as I can tell you have not had any kind of conversation with him. Before you go complaining about him to everyone else, Our Blessed Lord requires another step first:

Matt. 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

It is also good to remember this advice from St. Paul (how man admonishments have you given him?):

Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, not to be litigious, but gentle: showing all mildness towards all men. 3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: 7 That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. 8 It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:

 

[Genesis315]

Also, St. John Cantius may have some good advice for you too:

“Fight all error, but do it with good humor, patience, kindness, and love. Harshness will damage your own soul and spoil the best cause.”

 

[RJames]

You are making a lot of accusations as to this priest’s obstinance and malice and yet as far as I can tell you have not had any kind of conversation with him. Before you go complaining about him to everyone else, Our Blessed Lord requires another step first:

Matt. 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

It is also good to remember this advice from St. Paul (how man admonishments have you given him?):

Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, not to be litigious, but gentle: showing all mildness towards all men. 3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: 7 That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. 8 It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:

Twice. You have made a number of assumptions about me as well that you have no factual basis to make.

 

[RJames]

Also, St. John Cantius may have some good advice for you too:

“Fight all error, but do it with good humor, patience, kindness, and love. Harshness will damage your own soul and spoil the best cause.”

I have been mild and patient here. You have show great harshness towards me.

 

[steve_b]

More specifically I was asking where the Church taught that it is binding on the faithful to belive that Purgatory consists of physical fire.

If one looks at the scriptural passage usually given for purgatory 1 Cor 3: Paul speaks of fire/flames to describe the way a person’s work will be tested on the “Day”.

1 Cor 3:10-15

But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with** fireπῦρ pyr] , andthe fire** πῦρ pyr] will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up**, he will suffer loss** ζημιόω zēmioō ] ; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through fire. πῦρ pyr]

The meaning of zēmioō

1) to affect with damage, do damage to
2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss

i.e. punishment

“fire” in these passages the Greek word is πῦρ pyr] which means literal fire

notice fire destroys, AND also burns away dross without destroying, i.e. it purifies.

So within this passage, you have punishment AND purification being spoken of, wwhen one goes through judgement.

But to your point, I’m not sure the Church insists one way or the other that the fire spoken of here is literal fire, even though scripture talks about literal fire.

Ryan:

It is my understanding that Purgatory is a “place” or “condition” of purification

True

Ryan:

and that its physical make-up, or lack thereof, is simply a matter of opinion.

I think it’s safe to say, given Paul’s description of the process, it’s probably not a walk in the park.