Denied annulment - appeal?

[runningdude]

…

The Church still does not fully understand the situation. The fact that the lay people volunteering around children have to submit to background checks when the abuse was clearly within the clergy ] shows that the Church does not understand the problem. The fact that the Church continues to allow active homosexuals to stay as priests shows they still do not understand the problem.

The church understands sexual abuse better than most. Sexual abuse is committed at all strata of society. Hell, school teachers with master’s degrees commit sexual abuse with alarming regularity.

The ‘problem’ is far from isolated to the clergy. To believe that is sheer ignorance and would cause children harm far into the future. More abuse has occurred at the hands of lay volunteers than could possibly be committed by all the clergy combined. Local cases simply do not become national news, unlike clerical abuse.

 

[BellsMom]

It’s the Church’s way or no way.

Exactly. I’m surprised this was ever in doubt.

 

[DAML72]

Dan, what about what I was told is wrong?

IF the victimizer is able to see the testimony given by the victim I can tell you without exception when you are dealing with a sociopath that it will bring further abuse to the victim. If you do not believe it I can tell you first hand it will happen.

Since the situation I am personally referring to, every time the victim provides information to their attorney, it goes to the other attorney and then to the victimizer. That starts episodes of rage and verbal abuse which also occurs in front of the children. Not good for anyone.

So again, if the same process repeats with trying to get an annulment, the same abuse will be repeated.

If you have not gone through this kind of situation personally, it is difficult, if not impossible to relate.

As with most things of marriage, sexuality, etc. it is difficult for the Church to relate since they have no direct personal experience with these situations. That what the Church needs to change, they need to understand the reality of people’s lives in dealing with the abuse, hardships, mental illness and infidelity.

This is absolutely true. I was not physically abused in my marriage, but my ex-husband has narcissistic traits, and he can get very mean and vindictive when he even perceives a slight. I have just called to start the process, but, even though we have been apart for 9 years, I am terrified of what this will cause him to do to me. He will definitely unleash a barrage of passive aggressive punishments aimed at making my life miserable. He may also drag me to court over something. My worst fear is that, even though he isn’t Catholic, he will participate in the annulment process just so that he will have control over how he is perceived. For some reason, even though I have stayed here 5 hours from my family and any support system, while my life has come crumbling down around me, just so that he could maintain a relationship with our children, he sees me as a dangerous foe and is always scheming against me. It’s exhausting.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

This is absolutely true. I was not physically abused in my marriage, but my ex-husband has narcissistic traits, and he can get very mean and vindictive when he even perceives a slight. I have just called to start the process, but, even though we have been apart for 9 years, I am terrified of what this will cause him to do to me. He will definitely unleash a barrage of passive aggressive punishments aimed at making my life miserable. He may also drag me to court over something. My worst fear is that, even though he isn’t Catholic, he will participate in the annulment process just so that he will have control over how he is perceived. For some reason, even though I have stayed here 5 hours from my family and any support system, while my life has come crumbling down around me, just so that he could maintain a relationship with our children, he sees me as a dangerous foe and is always scheming against me. It’s exhausting.

FWIW, if your ex involves himself in the case and tries to assert control over the situation, that is very helpful to your case. This is exactly what happened when my (current) wife when for her annulment. The couldn’t give her the annulment fast enough.

 

[bobcrawford]

FWIW, if your ex involves himself in the case and tries to assert control over the situation, that is very helpful to your case. This is exactly what happened when my (current) wife when for her annulment. The couldn’t give her the annulment fast enough.

Just hope that the Church does not see your marriage as valid. Seems like if the Church determines that being married to an abuser, or someone with an addiction, or mental illness, etc is a valid marriage, you get to suffer even more by remaining “married”.

The person you are referring to sounds like ether a sociopath or someone with a narcissistic personality disorder. In both cases these kinds of people lie constantly and can even fool trained doctors and therapists, which is really difficult to deal with when you have untrained people involved in this annulment process.

The types of people I just described also thrive on you being miserable.

I believe that people who have these sorts of mental illnesses could never fully commit to any marriage thus EVERY one of these situations should be nullified immediately. BTW, there is also great danger in more attacks and abuse with the sociopath and NPD type people. Be careful that the people reviewing your case are warned to not disclose your testimony to the other spouse or it can endanger you further.

Been through this with a friend already.

 

[Prov31HelpMeet]

nnulments, in short are about the situation as it existed PRIOR to the marriage occurring.
So, consent to the sacrament is paramount, as well as both parties being elligible for marriage.

1. Can’t already be married
2. Must be open to life (intend to have children)
3. Can’t be incapacitated
4. Both people are Catholic.

Things that happen AFTER the marriage occurs are not grounds. One spouse becomes an alcoholic? too bad. One person cheats? too bad. Violence? Too bad.
The churches ACTUAL position is that in those extreme cases, the spouse that is danger can move out and pray for reconciliation, but you are married forever.
It is ALL about whether the two people were qaualified to be married on the wedding day.
Annulments in the Catholic church have become silly. If you’re not happy get an annulment. If he drinks, plays video games, cheats…get an annulment.

Without knowing the details of every annulment that has been mentioned in this thread I wonder what has been done on the wives part. I’m sure we are all innocent. Please don’t forget that the husband’s have not been given the opportunity to come here and defend their side.

Matthew 7:5

 

[MJJean]

The person you are referring to sounds like ether a sociopath or someone with a narcissistic personality disorder. In both cases these kinds of people lie constantly and can even fool trained doctors and therapists, ***which is really difficult to deal with when you have untrained people involved in this annulment process. ***

The people involved in the annulment process are trained. The tribunals hire staff that are trained in Canon Law and procedures. They either have psychologists on staff or will refer Petitioners and Respondents to them for evaluation on a case by case basis. As was mentioned already in this thread.

The bottom line here should be that the Church is NOT responsible for the foolish choices people make. Frankly, and this is from someone who was in an abusive marriage with a mentally ill man, at some point we have to take responsibility for ourselves, our decisions, and the consequences.

 

[bobcrawford]

The people involved in the annulment process are trained. The tribunals hire staff that are trained in Canon Law and procedures. They either have psychologists on staff or will refer Petitioners and Respondents to them for evaluation on a case by case basis. As was mentioned already in this thread.

The bottom line here should be that the Church is NOT responsible for the foolish choices people make. Frankly, and this is from someone who was in an abusive marriage with a mentally ill man, at some point we have to take responsibility for ourselves, our decisions, and the consequences.

You need to do some reading about sociopaths. They fool even trained people all the time.

We make the decision to marry someone who on the outside appears just fine, but that person may be a sociopath. Some sociopaths can go their entire lives without being diagnosed.

So if a person makes a decision to marry a sociopath e.g. fooled into thinking the person was normal, that somehow we have to take responsibility for that action?

 

[His_helpmeet]

You need to do some reading about sociopaths. They fool even trained people all the time.

We make the decision to marry someone who on the outside appears just fine, but that person may be a sociopath. Some sociopaths can go their entire lives without being diagnosed.

So if a person makes a decision to marry a sociopath e.g. fooled into thinking the person was normal, that somehow we have to take responsibility for that action?

If you are ever robbed of money, or have your house broken into, be sure to explain to the police that it is your fault for being in the area where you were robbed or for buying a house in a place where it could be broken into. That may like Catholic marriage, the criminal gets off the hook for the crime while you the innocent party bears the brunt of the crime. After all that is only right since you have the bear the responsibility for your decision on where to travel or live.

…and these attitudes are guided by the Holy Spirit? I think not.

I agree that people can make foolish choices. Depending on the circumstances, though, those foolish choices CAN result in a declaration of nullity. If a person was a sociopath, I’d question whether that person was able to intend a true marital covenant, simply because of his/her underlying personality disorder. Consequently a declaration of nullity should be fairly straightforward. Sociopathy is something that begins (even if it’s not fully evident - as you say, it can be hidden well) in childhood, not something that just develops suddenly.

 

[bobcrawford]

I agree that people can make foolish choices. Depending on the circumstances, though, those foolish choices CAN result in a declaration of nullity. If a person was a sociopath, I’d question whether that person was able to intend a true marital covenant, simply because of his/her underlying personality disorder. Consequently a declaration of nullity should be fairly straightforward. Sociopathy is something that begins (even if it’s not fully evident - as you say, it can be hidden well) in childhood, not something that just develops suddenly.

Correct, usually a sociopath has the mental illness by age 14. It is not easily detected and can be hidden very well.

 

[bobcrawford]

nnulments, in short are about the situation as it existed PRIOR to the marriage occurring.
So, consent to the sacrament is paramount, as well as both parties being elligible for marriage.

1. Can’t already be married
2. Must be open to life (intend to have children)
3. Can’t be incapacitated
4. Both people are Catholic.

Things that happen AFTER the marriage occurs are not grounds. One spouse becomes an alcoholic? too bad. One person cheats? too bad. Violence? Too bad.
The churches ACTUAL position is that in those extreme cases, the spouse that is danger can move out and pray for reconciliation, but you are married forever.
It is ALL about whether the two people were qaualified to be married on the wedding day.
Annulments in the Catholic church have become silly. If you’re not happy get an annulment. If he drinks, plays video games, cheats…get an annulment.

Without knowing the details of every annulment that has been mentioned in this thread I wonder what has been done on the wives part. I’m sure we are all innocent. Please don’t forget that the husband’s have not been given the opportunity to come here and defend their side.

Matthew 7:5

Anyone who is mentally ill is incapacitated in making a decision for a lifetime commitment to marriage.

Anyone who ends up cheating or beating a spouse AFTER the marriage, must have a mental illness or predisposed to that action prior to marriage, therefore these situations should be quickly nullified. Drug and alcohol abuse is a mental illness. Please follow the logic above.

I wonder how many of you making such harsh, black and white comments have gone through this personally or had a close family member go through it? How many of those spouses impacted by such lost their healthcare insurance, a safe home for the children, proper financial support, both a father and a mother for the children. How many of you have sat back and said, since they or I cannot get a annulment, I will just have to go without health insurance, a income on which to live, a dad or a mother for my children, a supportive and loving companion. Church says, tough beans, live with it…Really? That’s how cold hearted our Church is? Surely God is not? How can there be such a difference?

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Just hope that the Church does not see your marriage as valid.

The Tribunal does not go around seeking to investigate the if the marriages of Catholic persons married in Catholic form in the Catholic Church are valid.

The person you are referring to sounds like ether a sociopath or someone with a narcissistic personality disorder. In both cases these kinds of people lie constantly and can even fool trained doctors and therapists, which is really difficult to deal with when you have untrained people involved in this annulment process.

He is simply a very controlling individual, and the condition existed well before marriage. However, that is only one reason, and not the main reason, why the annulment was granted. But it most certainly helped that he was described as a certain type of person, then acted exactly as described when interviewed.

I believe that people who have these sorts of mental illnesses could never fully commit to any marriage thus EVERY one of these situations should be nullified immediately. BTW, there is also great danger in more attacks and abuse with the sociopath and NPD type people. Be careful that the people reviewing your case are warned to not disclose your testimony to the other spouse or it can endanger you further.

This is all water under the bridge. The annulments were done over a decade ago. Furthermore, the threat of violence is a non-issue. I am an experienced martial artist. Controlling people don’t want to involve themselves with people that they not only can’t control, but can do grave physical harm to them if necessary. And I also recommend that people in situations that can result in harm also get such training.

 

[His_helpmeet]

Anyone who is mentally ill is incapacitated in making a decision for a lifetime commitment to marriage.

Anyone who ends up cheating or beating a spouse AFTER the marriage, must have a mental illness or predisposed to that action prior to marriage, therefore these situations should be quickly nullified. Drug and alcohol abuse is a mental illness. Please follow the logic above.

I wonder how many of you making such harsh, black and white comments have gone through this personally or had a close family member go through it? How many of those spouses impacted by such lost their healthcare insurance, a safe home for the children, proper financial support, both a father and a mother for the children. How many of you have sat back and said, since they or I cannot get a annulment, I will just have to go without health insurance, a income on which to live, a dad or a mother for my children, a supportive and loving companion. Church says, tough beans, live with it…Really? That’s how cold hearted our Church is? Surely God is not? How can there be such a difference?

I can agree with you in this situation - IF there is evidence that the behaviour predated the marriage (which, in the case of abuse, for example, it typically does). However, I’m not sure that we could honestly say that granting a person a declaration of nullity just so they can remarry to gain health insurance is a good idea. If you marry ONLY for the purpose of gaining a stable income and health insurance, by definition your marriage may not be valid, as there may be a question of whether you freely consented to it. Furthermore, this may speak to a need for promoting social change, rather than a change in Church practices. If there’s that big of a concern for things like health insurance and spousal support, surely something could be worked out with welfare or through a divorce agreement. These are civil processes that do not affect the Church’s decision.

Moreover, having a mental illness does not necessarily mean that one cannot validly consent to marriage, depending on the nature of the mental illness. My husband is high-functioning autistic and I have generalized anxiety disorder that was untreated at the time we were married. We still validly gave consent because these were not disorders that affected our ability to give valid consent.

 

[sadpanda2]

You need to do some reading about sociopaths. They fool even trained people all the time.

We make the decision to marry someone who on the outside appears just fine, but that person may be a sociopath. Some sociopaths can go their entire lives without being diagnosed.

So if a person makes a decision to marry a sociopath e.g. fooled into thinking the person was normal, that somehow we have to take responsibility for that action?

Here’s the thing. If someone has sociopathic tendencies that exhibit after the wedding takes place, those can again speak to mendacity AT THE TIME of the wedding. If the truth is that nothing seemed wrong and the person at fault just covered things up really well, that is still grounds for declaring nullity.

 

[MJJean]

You need to do some reading about sociopaths. They fool even trained people all the time.

We make the decision to marry someone who on the outside appears just fine, but that person may be a sociopath. Some sociopaths can go their entire lives without being diagnosed.

So if a person makes a decision to marry a sociopath e.g. fooled into thinking the person was normal, that somehow we have to take responsibility for that action?

Absolutely. Any action one commits has consequences. Vows have serious and eternal consequences. In many cases, the person seeking nullity knew instinctively that there was something wrong or “off” and ignored those feelings. They rationalize. They marry anyway. If an annulment is granted or not, they at least have to admit responsibility for the paths their lives have taken.

Anyone who is mentally ill is incapacitated in making a decision for a lifetime commitment to marriage.

Anyone who ends up cheating or beating a spouse AFTER the marriage, must have a mental illness or predisposed to that action prior to marriage, therefore these situations should be quickly nullified. Drug and alcohol abuse is a mental illness. Please follow the logic above.

I wonder how many of you making such harsh, black and white comments have gone through this personally or had a close family member go through it? How many of those spouses impacted by such lost their healthcare insurance, a safe home for the children, proper financial support, both a father and a mother for the children. How many of you have sat back and said, since they or I cannot get a annulment, I will just have to go without health insurance, a income on which to live, a dad or a mother for my children, a supportive and loving companion. Church says, tough beans, live with it…Really? That’s how cold hearted our Church is? Surely God is not? How can there be such a difference?

The first paragraph sounds like you’re saying a mentally ill person cannot consent to marriage. This is dependent on the type of mental illness. Some mentally ill are capable of valid marital consent and some are not. Of course, if one becomes mentally ill after the marriage due to sudden onset of disease or an accident that would not invalidate the marriage.

Since nothing can invalidate an already valid marriage the assertion that in all cases of addiction or abuse blanket nullity should be granted is false. Not all illnesses and addictions are present at the time of marriage and occurred after the marital bond was already established.

Cheating also does not necessarily invalidate a marriage. If the cheater entered into marriage believing marriage is a permanent monogamous relationship and had no intention of cheating, the marriage is probably valid. People make mistakes. We sin. That doesn’t mean a valid marriage never existed. It means we’re human.

I am a woman who was in a 5 year abusive civil marriage complete with chronic infidelity and I am currently in the annulment process. I am civilly remarried and not able to be received into the Church while my (cradle catholic) husband isn’t supposed to receive Eucharist. We can fully participate in the Sacraments once my annulment is complete, assuming a positive outcome) and we’ve convalidated. Which I think addresses what happens if the Church doesn’t issue an annulment. The people who have reasons such as health or legal or tax benefits have to decide if they are willing to civilly marry or not.

And, as someone else pointed out either here or a similar thread, low income people being “forced” to marry for benefits of some sort when their religious convictions would have them not marry or wait to marry is more of a social justice issue than a problem for the Church.

 

[Prov31HelpMeet]

Anyone who is mentally ill is incapacitated in making a decision for a lifetime commitment to marriage.

Anyone who ends up cheating or beating a spouse AFTER the marriage, must have a mental illness or predisposed to that action prior to marriage, therefore these situations should be quickly nullified. Drug and alcohol abuse is a mental illness. Please follow the logic above.

I wonder how many of you making such harsh, black and white comments have gone through this personally or had a close family member go through it? How many of those spouses impacted by such lost their healthcare insurance, a safe home for the children, proper financial support, both a father and a mother for the children. How many of you have sat back and said, since they or I cannot get a annulment, I will just have to go without health insurance, a income on which to live, a dad or a mother for my children, a supportive and loving companion. Church says, tough beans, live with it…Really? That’s how cold hearted our Church is? Surely God is not? How can there be such a difference?

Mental illness does not render someone as incapacitated. Depression as an example of this. Not every depressed person is unable to get out of bed & function.To further his point a depressed person who commits a crime is punishable by law. They’re not insane. Likewise someone who was of sound mind then has a psychotic break may likely have been of sound mind at the time of marriage. Likely, so was the partner for that point. That is what in sickness & in health means. Do you have to live with someone who is dangerous? Absolutely not, but you do have to stay married. The same goes with addiction, physical abuse and many other reasons why one seeks an annulment. While it is horrible & unlivable in many cases it is not grounds per Canon law for an annulment.

This does not make our church or it’s parishioners cold hearted. It means we are governed by our Bible & Cannon laws. I can’t steal a car just because mine isn’t working. I am bound by law.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Dan, that’s not what a parish priest and someone who when through an annulment told me. In summary, they both said it is about YOUR state of mind prior to marriage, not the other person’s. In other words, if the other person wanted a prenuptial agreement just in case they were not happy in the marriage, and was cheating within six months of the marriage, that has no bearing on the annulment process. The innocent spouse has to prove that she was “immature” in her decision making process and ignored some of the things like the prenup. In other words we are told, it is not about the other person’s state of mind prior to marriage, it’s about your state of mind (the innocent party).

Not to mention IF the victimizer even takes part in the annulment process, if they are a sociopath, they will again lie because it helps them keep control over the innocent victim.

Since I understand the Church allows the other person (the victimizer) see the testimony, this in itself is very dangerous and can lead to more abuse. Even getting a protective order can set the other person off on the innocent person.

Again, the Church’s process is not modern enough to consider all the potential dangers in the annulment process. Very scary for a young woman.

Since my mom applied for her annulment and it was granted on the basis of my dad never having the intent to be faithful…I would say that is not true.

Actually if the victimizer doesn’t answer it is easier.

And one thing no one addresses here is marriage is for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. So ya, the domestic abuse I understand but for cheaters and those in addictions, the Church has a resonable expectation that you will try to reconcile as that is what you promised in your marriage vows.

Also, sorry that you think priest don’t have time for you but have you ever thought of volunteering or helping the priest out? I do for my priest and he almost always has time for me, but I try not to take advantage of that.

 

[DAML72]

Just hope that the Church does not see your marriage as valid. Seems like if the Church determines that being married to an abuser, or someone with an addiction, or mental illness, etc is a valid marriage, you get to suffer even more by remaining “married”.

The person you are referring to sounds like ether a sociopath or someone with a narcissistic personality disorder. In both cases these kinds of people lie constantly and can even fool trained doctors and therapists, which is really difficult to deal with when you have untrained people involved in this annulment process.

The types of people I just described also thrive on you being miserable.

I believe that people who have these sorts of mental illnesses could never fully commit to any marriage thus EVERY one of these situations should be nullified immediately. BTW, there is also great danger in more attacks and abuse with the sociopath and NPD type people. Be careful that the people reviewing your case are warned to not disclose your testimony to the other spouse or it can endanger you further.

Been through this with a friend already.

Thank you. I will proceed with caution. I don’t believe he is a sociopath, but he is very conniving and is excellent at setting himself up to be the ‘rational and reasonable parent.’ It took me a long time to realize and internalize that he sees me as a threat and is constantly plotting against me. As I said, it’s exhausting, but at least I now understand it. He might be borderline NPD, but we’ve somehow muddled through 9 years of co-parenting together. (Though last year was a total nightmare because I needed his approval to have my daughter diagnosed and treated for an illness that he did not agree with - that gave him some leverage over me that he really seemed to relish.) But, in all, he’s not as bad as some of my friends’ abusive ex-husbands, one of which takes my friend to court constantly over custody issues - the latest being a few hours of overlap on one day of summer vacation.

 

[bobcrawford]

Thank you. I will proceed with caution. I don’t believe he is a sociopath, but he is very conniving and is excellent at setting himself up to be the ‘rational and reasonable parent.’ It took me a long time to realize and internalize that he sees me as a threat and is constantly plotting against me. As I said, it’s exhausting, but at least I now understand it. He might be borderline NPD, but we’ve somehow muddled through 9 years of co-parenting together. (Though last year was a total nightmare because I needed his approval to have my daughter diagnosed and treated for an illness that he did not agree with - that gave him some leverage over me that he really seemed to relish.) But, in all, he’s not as bad as some of my friends’ abusive ex-husbands, one of which takes my friend to court constantly over custody issues - the latest being a few hours of overlap on one day of summer vacation.

Do yourself a favor. Do an Internet search under Sociopath, divorce, cheating and you should find a list of symptoms of a Sociopath. See if most if not all describe your husband.

 

[bobcrawford]

You might want to look here for Sociopath:

businessinsider.com/questions-that-diagnose-whether-youre-a-sociopath-2013-7?op=1

It could also be Narcissistic Personality Disorder as they share some of the same attributes:

psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms/

If he has a mental illness, then it might help you understand how to deal with him.