Denominational Dilemma

[rr1213]

People can be defined by both what they are and what they are not.

I am not Catholic because I don’t believe in Papal primacy or infallibility, the Marian doctrines, purgatory, mortal sin, priestly celibacy or that we are saved by works. I do believe in free will, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, a liturgical worship experience, many of the small “t” traditions of the Church and that we are saved by faith, although faith without works is dead. I am not Orthodox for many, although not all, of the same reasons that I am not Catholic. I am not Lutheran (or Calvinist) because I don’t believe in predestination or sola scriptura, although I believe that Scripture contains all things necessary for the salvation of men. I also believe that we must be “born again” as opposed to simply being baptized. I am not Baptist because I do not believe that baptism is limited to adults or that people need to be baptized again. I am not a fundamentalist because I do not believe that the Bible must be interpreted literally in every sense. I am not a Methodist because I do not follow the social gospel, believe in women’s ordination, a symbolic Eucharist or a non-liturgical worship service. Finally, I am not a Episcopalian because I believe that Scripture actually means something and that “pluraform truths” should be the name of a garage band, not the philosophy of the retiring Presiding Bishop. I also am lukewarm about Apostolic Succession which, I suppose, is another reason that I would not fit with the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

“Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?”

So, if there are 33,000 denominations, could someone please let me know where I fit into the picture? Seriously.

If you are simply going to post the obvious, that I am confused, have no systematic theology, that this is the result of personal interpretation, that I should submit myself to the discipline of the Church, or that I’m an idiot, please hold your fire. I’ve heard those before.

 

[jemfinch]

Start your own denomination. That’s what everyone else in your situation does.

Jeremy

 

[Magicsilence]

People can be defined by both what they are and what they are not.

I am not Catholic because I don’t believe in Papal primacy or infallibility, the Marian doctrines, purgatory, mortal sin, priestly celibacy or that we are saved by works. I do believe in free will, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, a liturgical worship experience, many of the small “t” traditions of the Church and that we are saved by faith, although faith without works is dead. I am not Orthodox for many, although not all, of the same reasons that I am not Catholic. I am not Lutheran (or Calvinist) because I don’t believe in predestination or sola scriptura, although I believe that Scripture contains all things necessary for the salvation of men. I also believe that we must be “born again” as opposed to simply being baptized. I am not Baptist because I do not believe that baptism is limited to adults or that people need to be baptized again. I am not a fundamentalist because I do not believe that the Bible must be interpreted literally in every sense. I am not a Methodist because I do not follow the social gospel, believe in women’s ordination, a symbolic Eucharist or a non-liturgical worship service. Finally, I am not a Episcopalian because I believe that Scripture actually means something and that “pluraform truths” should be the name of a garage band, not the philosophy of the retiring Presiding Bishop. I also am lukewarm about Apostolic Succession which, I suppose, is another reason that I would not fit with the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

“Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?”

So, if there are 33,000 denominations, could someone please let me know where I fit into the picture? Seriously.

If you are simply going to post the obvious, that I am confused, have no systematic theology, that this is the result of personal interpretation, that I should submit myself to the discipline of the Church, or that I’m an idiot, please hold your fire. I’ve heard those before.

If you believe God gave us a Church and that He is still with it. Then it is your duty to find that Church.

If you don’t believe that, then you might as well not bother since any interpretation of the bible is as good as another.

We each can hold personal beliefs, but as Catholics we maintain that we should search for Truth, which is in the bosom of the Church and nowhere else.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[Stephen_C]

One question. So how do you view the writings of the ECF’s?
One comment/correction. The Catholic Church does not teach we are saved by works.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

Except for Eucharist and Sola scriptura, we believe the same. I think you need to come to my church hehe

Anyway, I would suggest read the bible and start with the book of John and Ephesians. Pray for wisdom and guidance as to where God wants you to be. You wont find a perfect "visible"church because one does not exist.

God is obviously drawing you to Him. In His perfect timing He will plant you somewhere He wants you to be. When I was searching for a church I was told to visit a church for at least a month to get a feel for the messages being preached. Also ask for the mission statement and a copy of their doctrines and the way they run their church. All churches should have a booklet to give. If they dont run run run away!!!
Hope this helps

 

[puzzleannie]

OP has misconceptions about many Catholic teachings, so it is quite like he has mistaken ideas about the teachings of the Orthodox, or other Christian denominations. The best place to start would be attendance at a local church that seems most attractive, and begin to learn about its faith and practice. At the same time, a study of the origins of Christianity, how theology and doctrine developed, teachings of the Fathers, Church history, teachings of the Reformers etc. will help you put what you are learning in context.

You will probably have to do some church-hopping before you find a perfect fit that conforms to your personal beliefs, which is what you are asking for. Your solution is to keep looking until you find reinforcement for your own beliefs, or to keep studying, praying and reading the Bible so that your own beliefs begin to conform with the truth.

You would not even be asking this question if you were not sincerely searching for the truth, and the only way to find it is to continue looking, so have no doubt whatever that if you persevere you will find your true home.

 

[Contarini]

People can be defined by both what they are and what they are not.

I am not Catholic because I don’t believe in Papal primacy or infallibility, the Marian doctrines, purgatory, mortal sin, priestly celibacy or that we are saved by works.

Are you sure that you understand the Catholic doctrine of good works? Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine, so you don’t have to believe in it–though I suppose if you thought Scripture required priests to be married that would be a problem. When you say that you don’t believe in mortal sin, what do you mean by this? Do you mean that you don’t believe any individual act can break our relationship with God? Do you mean that “all sins are equal”?

I am not Lutheran (or Calvinist) because I don’t believe in predestination

Unless you subscribe to “openness theology” or something of that sort, you presumably believe in predestination. What I think you mean is that you don’t believe in unconditional predestination. Lutherans are fairly vague on this point–I suggest you look into their confessional documents more closely instead of assuming that Luther’s teachings are normative on every point for Lutherans, which they are not.

or sola scriptura, although I believe that Scripture contains all things necessary for the salvation of men.

But that is sola scriptura. What is the sola scriptura in which you do not believe?

I also believe that we must be “born again” as opposed to simply being baptized.

What exactly do you mean by that? What does one need to do in order to be born again? Repent and believe? I don’t know anyone (that is, any church) who thinks that baptism saves in the absence of repentance and faith.

I am not a Methodist because I do not follow the social gospel,

What exactly do you mean by the “social gospel” and why don’t you believe in it?

believe in women’s ordination, a symbolic Eucharist

A purely symbolic Eucharist is not traditional Methodist teaching–check the 25 Articles, which are their official statement of faith.

or a non-liturgical worship service.

Ever looked at the UMC hymnal? It has liturgical forms–the problem is that most congregations ignore them.

Finally, I am not a Episcopalian because I believe that Scripture actually means something

That’s a rather meaningless low blow

I also am lukewarm about Apostolic Succession

So are many Anglicans. Anglicanism and Anglo-Catholicism are not identical.

Are you aware that there are many conservative Anglicans, both inside and outside the Anglican Communion? Right now there’s an incredible diversity of such groups, ranging from those who remain in the Episcopal Church but protest its direction, all the way to “Continuing Anglicans” who reject women’s ordination and use the 1928 Prayer Book. The Reformed Episcopal Church is another conservative alternative, with a very Protestant flavor (though historically they are quite Calvinist and you would have problems with that).

The premise of all this is that your job is to find the church that suits your beliefs. Why do you think this is what you are supposed to do? Why not remain faithful in the church to which you currently belong, accepting that you are not infallible and that you and your church may have a lot to teach each other?

Or don’t you belong to a church right now?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Sorry–I see from your profile that you’re an ex-Episcopalian.

Does your local church really believe that Scripture doesn’t mean anything? If not, why not stay with it? If you must leave, are there no conservative Anglican alternatives in your area?

Edwin

 

[rr1213]

Are you sure that you understand the Catholic doctrine of good works? Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine, so you don’t have to believe in it–though I suppose if you thought Scripture required priests to be married that would be a problem. When you say that you don’t believe in mortal sin, what do you mean by this? Do you mean that you don’t believe any individual act can break our relationship with God? Do you mean that “all sins are equal”?

[Yes, I think I understand the Catholic doctrine of faith/works, although I did mistate it in the OP. I know that priestly celibacy is a discipline, not doctrine, and I don’t believe that priests must be married. I do think, though, that the Roman Catholic Church teaches contrary to scripture in requiring through its rule that priests be celibate (and I am aware of the exceptions to the rule). I don’t follow the classification of sin into mortal/venial…normal Protestant objections there].

Unless you subscribe to “openness theology” or something of that sort, you presumably believe in predestination. What I think you mean is that you don’t believe in unconditional predestination. Lutherans are fairly vague on this point–I suggest you look into their confessional documents more closely instead of assuming that Luther’s teachings are normative on every point for Lutherans, which they are not.

[You have me here. I don’t think that I understand what you are saying. My understanding is that Lutherans believe in single predestination and not in free will. I’m sure that this is oversimplified and that the doctrine has many more nuances than I am recognizing, but I still thought this was the essence.]

But that is sola scriptura. What is the sola scriptura in which you do not believe?
A purely symbolic Eucharist is not traditional Methodist teaching–check the 25 Articles, which are their official statement of faith. Ever looked at the UMC hymnal? It has liturgical forms–the problem is that most congregations ignore them.

[True, but most Methodist Churches I have attended have not been liturgical and do not preach the Real Presence. They also have been fairly liberal from a theological as well as a political standpoint].

That’s a rather meaningless low blow

[Yes, it was a low blow. I spent 20 years in the Episcopal Church and I am admittedly bitter now].

Are you aware that there are many conservative Anglicans, both inside and outside the Anglican Communion?

[Yes, I am pretty well informed about the current situation here. I’ve attended a number of these churches. The problem is that many of the various groups do not have congregations where I live and many that do are not very viable].

Why not remain faithful in the church to which you currently belong, accepting that you are not infallible and that you and your church may have a lot to teach each other? Or don’t you belong to a church right now?
[Thanks for your comments and insights].

Edwin**

 

[frnate]

So, if there are 33,000 denominations, could someone please let me know where I fit into the picture? Seriously. If you are simply going to post the obvious, that I am confused, have no systematic theology, that this is the result of personal interpretation, that I should submit myself to the discipline of the Church, or that I’m an idiot, please hold your fire. I’ve heard those before.

There’s always the LDS, they’ll take anybody

Ok, all seriousness aside, I may have a suggestion for you, depending on where you live. But in order to not seem to be proselytizing, which is certainly not my intent, and to avoid the hassle from our RCC brethren over my canonical status, can I PM it to you? If you want more info you only need ask. If not, feel free to tell me to buzz-off.

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[rr1213]

There’s always the LDS, they’ll take anybody

Ok, all seriousness aside, I may have a suggestion for you, depending on where you live. But in order to not seem to be proselytizing, which is certainly not my intent, and to avoid the hassle from our RCC brethren over my canonical status, can I PM it to you? If you want more info you only need ask. If not, feel free to tell me to buzz-off.

Peace,
+Nathan

I think I’ll pass on the Mormans please, no disrespect intended to my Morman friends of course.

Sure, feel free to PM me.

 

[rr1213]

You would not even be asking this question if you were not sincerely searching for the truth, and the only way to find it is to continue looking, so have no doubt whatever that if you persevere you will find your true home.

Thanks.

 

[rr1213]

Start your own denomination. That’s what everyone else in your situation does.

Jeremy

Neither viable nor appropriate.

 

[scylla]

(I am not Catholic because I don’t believe in Papal primacy or infallibility, the Marian doctrines, purgatory, mortal sin, priestly celibacy or that we are saved by works. )

This is why you should be Catholic, as being Catholic is being a person who affirms truth. Not someone who denies it. So in order to get past your objections you keep searching for truth which is what most honest people do.
That is why you are searching because obviously you care about truth enough to seek it.
I did not believe in Purgatory, the Marian Doctrines and Infalliblility when I was searching, and some of the Catholics who explained these things to me further alienated me. I believed in celibacy as I felt it was a faithful imitation of Jesus, mortal sin as killing someone is much different than stealing a penny from the take a penny tray, and Catholics don’t believe we are saved by works so that isn’t a problem for either of us.
If not for God I would not be Catholic.
(now I believe 100% in those doctrines but that is for another thread)

It takes a lot of soul searching and fidelity to God to do what you are doing, so I encourage you to test everything, hold on to what is good.

Starting at the point I was at it took me about 6-9 months to actually find some reasonable responses that I had to accept as there was no other explanation. It just sometimes takes time and since Jesus prayed that we would be one, the Christian thing to do is take that seriously.

In Christ
Scylla

So if it is not viable or appropriate to start your own, was it for anyone else?

 

[happygal]

One question. So how do you view the writings of the ECF’s?
One comment/correction. The Catholic Church does not teach we are saved by works.

As a protestant i love ECF, but i have a question to you what do you understand by Faith without work is dead, work without faith is also dead.

 

[Stephen_C]

As a protestant i love ECF, but i have a question to you what do you understand by Faith without work is dead, work without faith is also dead.

We are saved by faith (God’s Grace) alone. That said, faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. So we are in agreement here.

 

[rr1213]

I’d say that we are saved by God’s grace alone, through faith, and unto good works. Nothing we can do can save us, that is only by God’s grace. By God’s grace, he has allowed us to be saved through faith. Good works is the result of the fact that you have been saved by grace through faith. It is the seal by which you know if your faith is real, or only intellectual (you believe that God is one? Good. The demons also believe…and shudder).

 

[rr1213]

…It takes a lot of soul searching and fidelity to God to do what you are doing, so I encourage you to test everything, hold on to what is good…
In Christ
Scylla

So if it is not viable or appropriate to start your own, was it for anyone else?

Good advice, thank you. Was it viable for others to start their own churches? Well, history shows that the answer to that is an emphatic “yes”. Was it appropriate? That, of course, is a more complex question. Yes, I do believe that the Protestant Reformation was necesary, albeit unfortunate. Other schisms were less justifiable. It is a scandal that we are still divided, yet when everyone (presumably) believes that they are acting according to God’s will, you will get different results.

 

[jemfinch]

Neither viable nor appropriate.

If that’s not an appropriate reason to start a denomination, then why are you looking at denominations that started that way?

Jeremy

 

[jemfinch]

We are saved by faith (God’s Grace) alone.

No, we’re not. We’re saved by faith and works, both being manifestations of God’s grace. Or, contrariwise, we’re saved by faith formed in love (i.e., works of love).

Don’t try to gloss over the differences in Catholic theology and Protestant theology here: we believe that works have salvific virtue, and Protestants don’t. That’s a pretty big difference.

Jeremy